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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > SailBoat Speed
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Thread: SailBoat Speed Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-24-2010 02:50 AM
Maxboatspeed
101

Sailing101,

I'll bet you've lost interest in all this speed jabber. Good advice from Midlife and B. If you're 101, the first thing to learn is that these types of boats are not fast. If you need to get from A to B fast, drive, fly, get a power boat, or even ride a bike. I don't think you care about racing as it is not part of the 101 class.
Learning general sailing principals (101) is necessary to get these boats anywhere near their speed potential. Also, 101 is needed to sail at all.
Evaluating used boats is best done on the water, if possible. That way you can see how she sails and best evaluate sails, rigging, ect.
Good luck with your search
Max
04-23-2010 11:33 AM
GeorgeB PHRF is a regression formula based on a boat’s principal dimensional data for the most part. It is not like a golf handicap and it does not take into consideration the condition of the sails, rigging or other gear (like microwave ovens and BBQs). Often you will hear a racer lament that his boat ”doesn’t sail to her number” which means his own boat is slower than indicated by his PHRF number.

Yes, the Islander has a much lower PHRF number, ergo, it should be faster than a C22. However, the Islander is a much different kind of boat. The questions you have posted here are all over the place which is fine for general information, but you need to be much more focused if you are trying to narrow down your boat selection. For example, if your primary criteria is speed, (and money is not much of an object), consider a Melges 24 which is the same size but roughly two times faster than the Islander. The Islander isn’t really a trailer sailor per say. You would most likely need a travel lift or hoist to launch her, which pretty much ties you to a marina that you can dry store and that offers “free” use of a hoist for launching. Can you write down in a single message what exactly is important to you and your wife. What are your expectations and desires? That way I can be more focused and helpful to you. For example: Minivan as a primary tow vehicle? This will eliminate most of the boats out there. Three quarter ton pickup? Not a problem.
04-23-2010 10:50 AM
PalmettoSailor
It really doesn't matter that much.

First, neither of the boats you're comparing can be considered fast in any way. Second, you could spend an inconcievable sum of money to make either of these boats sail faster, but they will never be fast. Third, you could spend a lifetime learning to sail a boat fast, so you are at a disadvantage to those that have done just that.

If you are just learning to sail, few things are as frustrating as being spanked by boats that are known to be slower than yours. However, that's exactly what you should expect. Every club has that dude that bought a Bene 10R or C&C115, etc thinking they were a shoe in for the club trophy, only to be outsailed by more experience sailors on "lesser" boats.

My advice is to not worry much about the boats PHRF rating and buy the one that a) seems most likely to suit your use, and b) is in the best condition. Then go out and enjoy the boat and don't worry if some other boat is 10 seconds a mile faster or a minute a mile faster. PHRF ratings have very little impact on how much you will enjoy your boat. They only matter if you race, and then you'll only complain about the rating.
04-23-2010 10:21 AM
Maxboatspeed Lots of info here. The question is not so simple as it seems. There are many ratios, specifcations, ratings, etc that are used to compare sailboats. If you want to know max speed under power it will be close to calculated hull speed assuming you have sufficient HP. Very close for these boats. Between 5.5 and 6.0 kts. If your looking at these boats the condition of sails, rigging, added weight, and bottom condition are the things to consider.
PHRF is a good gauge of average performance potential for boats with good racing sails, clean bottoms, properly distributed weight, sailed competitively.
Different areas have slightly different rating systems.

Sailboat guys have many ratios and ways to compare speed potential. I'm thinking that stuff is more than you are looking for. Find out what the boat was designed for- racer, racer/cruiser, day sailor/cruiser, ocean capable,
power/sailor, etc. Also, I'm sure guys on this blog will be happy to compare designs for you.
Max
04-23-2010 08:32 AM
JimsCAL The B24 has a longer waterline and thus a higher hull speed. But they are only about 10 secs per mile apart which isn't much. Esssentially equivalent speed.
04-23-2010 02:17 AM
tager I had an Islander Bahama 24 for a year and sailed it a lot. It was great in over 5 knots. Under that it was sooooo slow. Not a good light air boat, lots of skin friction, low wavemaking resistance.
04-22-2010 07:01 PM
BarryL Hello,

Those boats are basically all the same speed. PHRF is good for determining differences in speed, but for the information to be useful, you need to have a LARGE difference in the number. If one boat was 150 and other 100, that would mean something, or one was over 250 and other under 200. The difference between 258 and 270 is basically nothing.

This assumes you are NOT racing the boat. If you are racing, then every second counts. For cruising, the difference between the two boats might be 5 minutes after a few hours of sailing.

Barry
04-22-2010 05:22 PM
hellosailor A larger handicap number, means a slower boat.

PHRF numbers as I recall are based on a triangle (upwind, downwind, beam wind) and also locally adjusted for local wind speed range, so they are not an absolute comparison, they must be taken in context. Some boats, usually heavier ones, will be disadvantaged in light air but become relatively faster in bad weather when they can stay upright and there's plenty of wind. (Again, within limits.)

To make any boat faster, you clean the bottom. You get rid of excess weight. And you add sail area, and new sails as opposed to blown out old sails. And, of course, you learn to trim the sails for maximum speed made good on course.
04-22-2010 05:02 PM
Sailboat101

So I looked up data PHRF data on the two boats in question. I nearly fell
over when I found that the Bahama Islander Older and Heavier boat is faster...
Is this right?


















































Class\Type
Lowest

Handicap
Highest

Handicap
Average

Handicap
ISLANDER
BAHAMA 24
246 270 258
ISLANDER 24
BAHAMA
258 273 264
CATALINA 22 FK 249 279 267
CATALINA 22 ODR
270 276 270
CATALINA 22 SK 263 279 270
CATALINA 22 WK 267 285 273




Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
Check the polar diagrams. That will give you a rough idea of how a well-sailed boat will perform under various wind speeds at various points of sail.

Another way to compare boats, at least on a rough basis, is to look at their PHRF ratings. The higher the rating, the slower the boat.

There really isn't a lot you can do to enhance the performance of a boat. Other than keeping excess weight off the boat, fairing and smoothing the bottom and keeping it free of growth, keeping your sails in good shape, etc... but the basic speed of a given boat won't change much.

Some designs are just going to be much faster than others... Multihulls are a good example of that... trimarans, and to some degree catamarans, are going to be faster than their monohull counterparts.
04-22-2010 01:04 PM
RichH In addition to the US Sailing's 'polar' diagrams, you can also get such info from the US Sailing "VPP programing" - will differentiate between different equipment, differing sails used, etc. etc.
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