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  Topic Review (Newest First)
4 Minutes Ago 02:15 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Yeah - "knockdown" is definitely an overstatement. At about 2:48 he gets hit by a good gust that lays him over pretty good and puts the rail in the water. He turns the camera to himself to show his reaction. It was another reason I think he just has too much sail out for the conditions (if you're just sailing, not racing) - and is on a harsh point of sail (not running off).

Of course, it looks to me like he intentionally went out in the stink to do some "practicing". And he seemed to do pretty well. So I've got to give him some cred. Few people are willing to do that. It's funny, but from the cockpit shots the headsail looks to have a much better shape than in the top-down shots.

But to your question about the main, judging by the boat's reaction to that big gust, if you added even a triple-reefed main to that headsail on that point of sail, you'd be way over-canvassed I think. I sailed in 40-45 with just a reefed main on my Catalina 27 (no headsail). We were on a beam reach and it was a little scary. Lots of shuddering with the rig.

Here is the other video I was talking about. This guy is much rougher conditions with the same general sail configuration, but is much more comfortable and the boat far less stressed. The conditions are touching F11:

8 Hours Ago 05:50 AM
ScottUK
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I agree. But at 50+ knots, I don't think it's really about sail shape anymore - per se. It's more just about stability and directional assistance - and the amount of sail. Sure, ideally you want to blade ANY sail out as much as you can in those conditions (and the one in the video has way too much belly in my opinion - and you can see the results in the one knockdown) - but are you really wanting to shape a foil in wind like that?

To me the video shows that it would be much better if he had a bit less sail out and was heading downwind (like in the other video I posted of the sloop in the F10/11 conditions that was doing much better than this boat). He's definitely pushing the boat in this vid. Even so, it's doing pretty well.
I agree it is more about stability and and directional control and I think a better sail configuration would be greatly improve that. I have beat into similar conditions a few times (with non-furling headsails) with a smaller headsail and reefed main with no issues of stability and directional control and I would think a more balanced helm they likely would have had. Makes me wonder why they did not raise the mainsail and how it would have impacted the interrelationship with the furled headsail and on helm control.

An interesting aside, during one of those times of similar conditions we were doing an offshore race shorthanded (to get to a start point and to meet the rest of our crew for another offshore race) and were in last place. We had another boat in front of us within our sights, We were losing ground on them and I started to pinch a bit. Though the boat dropped in speed 1-1.5Kts we were able to point higher and sail flatter and passed them. When our watch was over the other watch sailed for speed and was overtaken by the boat we had passed. When we got back on I steered as I did previously and we passed them again and eventually beat them over the line. Second to last but at least we beat one boat. I think it shows how a boat that is even somewhat overpowered can really effect VMG. I think this could be applicable to a poorly shaped furling headsail with a tendency to be overpowered at times.

Having viewed the video 3 times I have not seen the knockdown you had mentioned.
13 Hours Ago 12:36 AM
smackdaddy
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

I understand that Med. And that's what I said - that you want blade, not belly in high-wind conditions. But again, we're talking 50+ knots (F10/11) - at least we were in another related thread (the production boat praise thread). In that case, reducing sail (not just blading it) is a very, very good option....as is running off...and towing a drogue. Read Bob's recent post from the Jefe. All sail comes down in an F10/11 blow and he's running bare poles - at 9-14 knots. The problem is, he's on the foredeck in the Southern Ocean pulling down that staysail in 60+ knots with towering green water coming over the decks. Not a place I would want to be.

So, we're talking this fine line between sailing in heavy winds, and handling a storm. The window of optimizing sail shape with a storm staysail in big wind is pretty small in my book (and that of Hal Roth). It's certainly not enough to warrant turning a sloop into a cutter as was being advised in the other thread. Just my opinion.
19 Hours Ago 06:42 PM
MedSailor
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I agree. But at 50+ knots, I don't think it's really about sail shape anymore - per se. It's more just about stability and directional assistance - and the amount of sail...
Ummm... No. Shape counts exponentially more at high winds. Increased draft and camber increase drag and power which causes you to heel more.

You want a flat blade that develops lift and forward motion in gusts not just drah and power which will knock you down.

With poor shape you'll have to reduce sail because of heel and you'll be under driven and more at risk of knockdown.

BTDT with the partially rolled furler in a blow. Slow going with lots of heel means you're in it longer and its less comfortable.

Medsailor


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23 Hours Ago 03:14 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windkiller View Post
Anyway , i generally try to trust my own instincts and listen to advice if it seems sensible. I like a good adventurous sail, seeing the boat I'm in rushing through the elements, Exciting stuff. But I'm not the type to jump out of perfectly good airplanes or knowingly seek perilous situations. Things can go awfully wrong, awfully quickly
Bingo. The key is to deal with the crap that you find yourself in - for whatever reason - and get home safely. That's BFS in my book.
23 Hours Ago 03:11 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
Don't think rolling more in would do anything for sail shape which is, to me, the biggest draw back of a furler. It is a consideration for me as I have furler rigged mast headed sloop too.
I agree. But at 50+ knots, I don't think it's really about sail shape anymore - per se. It's more just about stability and directional assistance - and the amount of sail. Sure, ideally you want to blade ANY sail out as much as you can in those conditions (and the one in the video has way too much belly in my opinion - and you can see the results in the one knockdown) - but are you really wanting to shape a foil in wind like that?

To me the video shows that it would be much better if he had a bit less sail out and was heading downwind (like in the other video I posted of the sloop in the F10/11 conditions that was doing much better than this boat). He's definitely pushing the boat in this vid. Even so, it's doing pretty well.
23 Hours Ago 02:32 PM
Windkiller
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

I couldn't agree more! I had even researched it all ahead of time and planned it out.
I was planning on getting up at 7 and heading out by 8:30 and hitting the pass right at slack, It was my first time solo in that boat and my first time crossing the Straight, prudence seemed to be sensible. One doesn't &^%*^& with Nature!
It was the boat's owner and the fellow we were staying with (largely a power boater I believe), both with way more experienced than I on the water, who said that I shouldn't worry about it, that I would "fly back to Vancouver" with the flood and the wind!!
Maybe they were talking literally??!! I did feel like I was airborne a couple times.
Anyway , i generally try to trust my own instincts and listen to advice if it seems sensible. I like a good adventurous sail, seeing the boat I'm in rushing through the elements, Exciting stuff. But I'm not the type to jump out of perfectly good airplanes or knowingly seek perilous situations. Things can go awfully wrong, awfully quickly
1 Day Ago 01:59 PM
jackdale
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windkiller View Post
Weeell
My BFS story isn't that mighty and it was really a motor sail, or the scariest bit was.
I'm mostly a dinghy sailor but I currently have a Danica 16 (little full keel double ender)
For my BFS I was crossing Georgia straight solo sailing my friend's home built wooden 20 ft George Holme's Eel inspired Canoe Yawl, Pilgrim's Wake for the first time.
I let myself be convinced by those 'more experienced' that sleeping in and riding the tide through Porlier pass(where the current can get up to 8 knots) into the strait where it was forecast to blow 10-15knots would be a good idea( I had planned to hit the pass at slack, take it easy in the lighter late morning breezes)
Anyone with any "experience" of Porlier Pass and Georgia Strait should have known better. A flood current and NE winds are going to result in steep waves.

Your plan was much, much better.
1 Day Ago 01:34 PM
ScottUK
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I think I saw somewhere that he reported 50 knots. Looks close to that in the vid. And I agree on the sail shape. To me he had a bit too much out for the conditions, and I assume he didn't have the sea room to run off. Pretty lousy shape, but that boat was definitely eating it up...and so was he.
Don't think rolling more in would do anything for sail shape which is, to me, the biggest draw back of a furler. It is a consideration for me as I have furler rigged mast headed sloop too.
1 Day Ago 11:28 AM
smackdaddy
Re: Big Freakin' Sails

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottUK View Post
I think the 'money' shot was the cut showing the headsail from atop the forestay. The sail shape you see is what you would want on a broad reach rather than beating to windward as they are doing.

I don't view the sailing conditions as 'extreme'. Yes it is sporty but I do not really see much green water.
I think I saw somewhere that he reported 50 knots. Looks close to that in the vid. And I agree on the sail shape. To me he had a bit too much out for the conditions, and I assume he didn't have the sea room to run off. Pretty lousy shape, but that boat was definitely eating it up...and so was he.
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