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Thread: Canaries to the Caribbean Nov/Dez 2010 Reply to Thread
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  Topic Review (Newest First)
10-27-2010 06:56 AM
sailingdog Zanshin—

I'm not condemning the OP for his offer. My issue is that the OP is trying to pass this off as a vacation. It isn't one. He's trying to call asking crew to subsidize the delivery something it isn't.

From the OP's various posts:

The Catamaran is owned by 2 guys. Me and the Skip on the boat right now. I am in Montreal at this time (business). The Skip on the Cat will take it to the Caribbean. I will take it back to Europe in 2011/2012. So questions need to be forwarded to the Skip on board. No sweat to contact him via PACTOR III on given email. But anyways, I can answer questions on landline as well, if so requested.

Here, no one is hiring a crew. Nor buying. People are being asked, just like your friends would ask you to go on vacation with them. Will they be paying your expenses? No! The only difference now is: Here you do not know the rest of the crew - YET!

So, if someone is looking for making money out of this - this is the wrong place! It´s all about fairness and having fun for 2-3 weeks. And that will actually cost you a little. But therefore you will have a great boat and two great sailors participating.

I see your point. And yes, I agree, for a straight delivery all expenses should be paid by the owner.

But here, this is NOT the case. The boat is in a great shape, just went through professional overhaul. Electrics, Engines, Carpentry, Electronics, etc... So up to now, no repair jobs required.

Also the crew need NOT be experienced as the Capt. is and also the other crewmember. It´s just about redundancies and workload sharing, eg. night watch. It´s more fun when you are 3 or 4 on board, don´t you agree?

Also, if the WX is unsuitable, departure will be delayed accordingly. No hurry to get there. The Cat is fast anyhow and will make it in no time.

This all means: The trip is about fun and relaxing. No delivery, no rush. Think of it as vacation, where perhaps only a destination is given.
I'd point out that the OP is ONE OF THE BOAT'S OWNERS...and he is clearly trying to get people to crew and subsidize his delivery of his own boat. Even though he agrees that the OWNER SHOULD PAY ALL EXPENSES ON A DELIVERY, and that is pretty clearly what this is, he is trying to get away without doing so.

Yes, if someone needs sea time and miles, this might be a good deal for a person....but honestly, let's call it what it is... A DELIVERY. If you don't mind subsidizing someone's cruising costs and don't mind paying for expenses that rightly should be borne by the boat owner in exchange for a sea-going berth... be my guest. Just don't be under the illusion that this is a vacation, regardless of what the OP says it is.

Yes, doing a delivery can be a lot of fun. But they're also a lot of work. With four people aboard, especially if two of them are inexperienced as the OP claims is okay, you'll be doing TWO-PERSON watches—at least at night. That means you won't be getting much sleep. If the OP says that you'll be doing solo watches—I'd have to question his judgement, especially since he says you don't need to have experience. I wouldn't want an inexperienced person on watch solo, especially on a night watch.

No where have I said that the crew should be making money on doing this—even though that seems to be what the OP and UR keep claiming... just that they shouldn't have to bear the costs of feeding themselves while they're working. If someone is okay with subsidizing this guy's cruising in exchange for a berth... go for it.
10-27-2010 05:16 AM
Originally Posted by CalebD View Post
Yes, the Bendy toy 51' First I sailed on was ocean cruising ready after doing the ARC and the owner was a doctor so I considered it safe to do with just two people for 400+ nm on open ocean. I had a blast and would even consider paying a per diem for food to do it again, plus air fare.
SnowFlake is asking for voluntary crew who will pay their own expenses, not a delivery crew. ...
This is just a guy wanting a few (good looking) person(s) to join them in the ARC. It is not really a delivery but a race.
Breathe deeply again.
Actually not, he is going to leave from Canary Islands, but not participate in the ARC.

My objection, that was also a warning, concerned the risks that eventually uninformed crew members (eventually from this forum) could experience from sailing out of Azores in the rainy and stormy season. Sailing in rain and bad weather is not my idea of fun and the trip was been advertised as holidays, not to speak of eventual danger.

Snowflake 123 have taken in consideration what I have told him about the right place to begin a Transat on this time of the year and moved his departure point 750 miles south to Canary Islands and that just takes away my concerns and objections.

I agree that could be a nice experience, even if a 36ft Cat is a relatively small boat to do that kind of voyage, but, of course that are some 36ft bluewater cats, and others that are just intended for coastal work.

Snowflake 123, just to take away any doubt and to show us, and all that are eventually interested, that you have an appropriated boat for the job, do you mind to post some more information about your cat (model, year) and pictures?


10-27-2010 01:27 AM
Zanshin I can't believe how shoddily this new member has been treated by the forum. Most sailors don't have boats and getting sufficient sea miles can be a difficult task, particularly for those certifications that really mean something (Yachtmaster or SSS to name just two) and giving people an opportunity to cross the pond without having to pay for berths is a generous offer.

I do note that only those who don't need miles or look for the adventure of an ocean crossing complained about the offer. What some call "work" many others will call "fun" and to condemn the original poster for his offer is patently unjustified.
10-26-2010 11:29 PM
CalebD SD,
Yes, the Bendy toy 51' First I sailed on was ocean cruising ready after doing the ARC and the owner was a doctor so I considered it safe to do with just two people for 400+ nm on open ocean. I had a blast and would even consider paying a per diem for food to do it again, plus air fare.
SnowFlake is asking for voluntary crew who will pay their own expenses, not a delivery crew. I don't think that either of us is going to volunteer, for our own reasons, but what is the harm caused by the OP for looking for paying crew for the ARC on SailNet?
Take a deep breath please
This is just a guy wanting a few (good looking) person(s) to join them in the ARC. It is not really a delivery but a race.
Breathe deeply again.
10-26-2010 09:54 PM
snowflake123 now, who was that again, getting this mongrel off the forum?
oh, sorry. not mongrel, it was sailingdog...i am confused...
anyhow..someone? please?
10-26-2010 07:09 PM
sailingdog CalebD—

I'd point out that a new model Bendytoy 51' is a bit different from the OP's description of the boat they're on:

The Catamaran is some years old, but very well equipped and on a new technical standard. Completely overhauled in 2010 with lots of redundancies.
The 51' Bendytoy is probably more luxurious and better equipped, since the wording the OP used is what you'd hear from a used car salesman.
10-26-2010 06:28 PM
CalebD Actually the ARC is a race and Caribbean delivery combined. Cruising divisions are allowed to motor when they feel it necessary. Some people do this for the cachet of the race and others merely to reposition their boats or a bit of both. There are entry fees to join the ARC and the boats they accept must meet certain safety criteria (eg., no life raft? no ARC, no Sat phone or SSB? no ARC etc).
There are plenty of people who would pay to do this. I'd love to but I can't afford it.
I watched a 51' Beneteau on the ARC website that a friend owned a few years back. It seemed pretty exciting from my couch - they show daily position reports on a chart. I ended up helping this friend on a delivery leg of his boat from the BVIs to Turks & Caicos for which I paid my airfare and beer tab, the owner paid for the food. I really enjoyed the trip on the open ocean even if there were only 2 of us on the boat. While it was a leg of an ultimate delivery to Stamford, CT it was also an adventure. I think the owner would have done it by himself with the radar doing some of the night watches but his wife wanted him to have at least one other person on board. I was not the delivery captain, the owner was and I just enjoyed a chance to be part of a crew on an ocean voyage. I'd do it again if I had the time and money.
10-26-2010 05:13 PM
ughmo2000 I never said crew had to be paid. But why should crew subsidize a boat owner's cruising?

You can call it a wonderful opportunity, a three nutted monkey, or whatever else you wish but bottom line is, your crew is providing a service to you and you don't feel like they should be compensated in any way for their efforts. According to Uncleruckus, if you love your job you should pay your employer for the privilege of going to work everyday. I imagine your ok with a delivery captain who gets paid by the owner then charges his crew as well.

If this were advertised as a training cruise, and the owner has the proper credentials, I'd have no problem with it. Anyone who signs on would be gettng something in return. That's not the case here.

So, exactly who is trying to get something for free?
10-26-2010 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by sailingdog View Post
They aren't looking for crew...they're looking for free labor by someone willing to subsidize their delivery...

Feeding the crew of a boat is pretty much a cost of doing business. Do you think the people who work on off-shore oil rigs or on the big ocean-going ships PAY FOR THEIR MEALS... no, because they're on-call 24/7. It isn't a vacation as the OP would like to present it. You don't really have an option of saying, "No, I don't think I'll help sail the boat today, it's my day off..." Spending the day doing nothing productive is an option on a vacation, not on a delivery... this is clearly a delivery.

Yes, there are people who are willing to pay to do this on a luxurious 72 Swan or something. The OP is talking about a 36' CATAMARAN... not the 72' Challenge Boat you're talking about. It's a small sailboat...not a luxury yacht.

You're comparing apples and oranges, which is pretty hypocritical considering what you're saying to Ughmo2000. If this was a Swan 65 or something equally luxurious, or a boat with some historic meaning, like an America's Cup racer, that you might never get a chance to step aboard otherwise, then your argument makes sense. A 36' catamaran is much like Ughmo's one really dreams of sailing across the Atlantic in it.. None of the boats in the ARC that are charging passage are 36' LOA I'm willing to bet, and most of the boats are over 45'.
WHOOSH!!! That's the sound of the point going completly over your head.
A Challenge boat is not a luxury boat by far, they were designed and built to "race" around the world upwind. Most of the charter boats in the fleet are not luxury cruisers, even though Brits refer to them as yachts, they are just called sailboats here. A Bene 40.7 probably has less interior space than a 37' cat, but if you were to want to do the trip on Coyote it would cost you $3700. And even though you are paying to be on the boat you will still be reqiured to stand watches and assist in the day to day operation of the boat. Also most of the charter boats are dry, as in no booze while underway.
For some people having to get out of bed at 3:00 am to stand watch alone at sea on a sailboat is a tedious chore, for me it is pure heaven. But I guess we won't ever agree on this point so no sense beating a dead horse. My main point is when someone post a crewing opportunity they shouldn't have to be subject to ridicule and childess name calling.
And that is about the last I will have to say about it.

Snowflake, Believe me if I could get the time off I would be on my way already. A friend of mine was hired to skipper one of the charter boats down from England, she left last week, (with crew paying $1500 for the experience) and then she'll take it across with the ARC. I could have joined her on the trip down for 20 quid a day, but this is our busiest time of the year.
I will be in St. Lucia for my annual Christmas/ New Years charter through the Grenadines. I join the boat on Dec. 16 and the charter starts on the 19th. We are usually docked on F dock at the marina in Rodney Bay. If you are there around that time drop me a PM and maybe we can get together for a beer, I would like to hear how the trip went.
Stay safe and good luck in your trip.

PS: if it was me I'd sign up that young girl from Poland for the crossing.
10-26-2010 11:50 AM
sailingdog BITE ME!!!! LOL
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

You mean on this forum?
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