SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

We are 99% sure we are going engine-less

9K views 54 replies 34 participants last post by  sailingdog 
#1 · (Edited)
....
 
#2 ·
Chrisncate,

What you have said is the only way to sail, at least for me. I wrote a post on here about motor sailing, as I was unsure the point. A few people had good points, but I guess it comes down to what do YOU want. You were very specific. I sail Catalina 22s, Capri 16.5s without motor power at all. I have done just fine, and I agree, it does take a lot more skill to only sail. When I single hand a Pearson 36 though, I do motor, as it can be challenging pulling out of the dock, and I think I don't have a choice but to motor out of the Marina. Anyway, I say kudos to you and yours. I am pretty sure that Leaf Erikson and Zheng He did not motor out to America before Cris Columbo did. Good luck to you, and yes you are a purist, you and me also.
 
#3 ·
well, it certainly would force you to improve your sailing skills. :D When you don't have an iron genny to fall back on, you really don't have a choice but to improve your sailing skills.

However, it will limit you in some places that you can go, since not all harbors, canals, etc., are going to be safely navigable without an engine. In some cases, even if they are safely navigable, it won't be allowed. The Cape Cod Canal and the Panama Canal both come to mind. IIRC, neither allows a sailboat to proceed under sail.

One other issue is that the facilities that used to exist for purely sail-powered craft are getting scarcer and scarcer. Modern marinas tend to have narrower fairways, where getting in and out of a slip is almost impossible without an auxiliary engine, so you will also be limited in where you can stay.

That said, I say go for it. But, I would recommend that you setup a bracket so that you can use the dinghy's outboard to maneuver the mothership under certain conditions, like parking the boat in a slip in a tight marina when necessary under calm conditions. :D
 
This post has been deleted
#7 ·
Yes. The experence of a coastal sailer, but not deep blue water. I have been pushed aground off Tarpon Springs, Fla. in a 35' Vangard. I have tried threading the 1000 islands of south Florida in puffy days when everything seemed to go wrong, and beat my way in Tampa bay against tide and wind for hours. Trade it, hell no! But I also recognize that it could have got dicey and I could have lost my boat, crew, and put other people in danger for my stubborn stupidy.
One of the gains in growing older is to realize that you are only a frail human and you are not superman and there many people who care and belive it's their duty to come to your rescue when you do something that endangers you and yours. I now try not to be one of those who needs their aid.
I am not a fan of outboards on boats as large as your Alberg. Why hang the engine out in the weather off the stern? If you tip it up, you have to put it down to use it. If you leave it down you're dragging a prop through the water(isn't this why you wanted to get rid of the inboard) Ever try to tip down an outboard in a choppy sea? If you unship it to store it below, (space, smell) you have to hang it back to use it. This can be fun at sea(please don't drop it, engines hate total emerson) assuming you tided it off.
On the other hand you inboard is big, heavy(think balast) but inside. You can work on it even at night, rain. It will get you a whale of a lot further on an equal amount of fuel.(think becalmed 20 miles out) and a two blade prop lined up with the keel really isn't a noticable drag unless you are racing. You can line this up with a crayon mark on the shaft when the blades are in the correct position, if you're that worried about it. It can charge your batteries, heat your cabin, and can, in an emergency, pumb your bilge.
Yes, they REQUIRE mantainence, space parts, oil changes, filters; but guess what so do outboards. Your Yamar with care and attention will out live your boat, will the outboard?
This is my opinion. Opinions are as the drops of water in the sea, all sailors have them.

"it's the trip, not the destination"
 
#8 ·
Following an engine failure a couple of years ago. I lived without a working for a little over a month, including a long passage to get somewhere to have the engine replaced.
It sounds very romantic to rely on sail alone. Its not.
The reality is its hard work and frequently dangerous in situations that would be easy with an engine.
The engine is one of the most important pieces of safety equipment. Think long and hard before you give it up.
I would at least try managing with a non working engine for an extended period of time before you take the steps to seal up the prop shaft etc.
You are also making the boat very hard to sell in future.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
#9 ·
Good evening ladies, gentlemen and SD,

Our first yacht had the old MD7A - I had to rely on the sails. I grew up with/on my Fathers gaff ketch with an old Gardner 5LW (hand crank start). We sailed this mostly until he grew older and then got the engine serviced with an electric start.!

We are sailors - so sail, dont turn on the engine to reef or if the wind gets too strong! - ask Giu about this.

I do try to practice what I preach; We do have 100 horses under the cockpit, but being of Scottish extraction, I am a scrooge. I refueled in the Whitsundays and put $70 of fuel. Now in Brisbane, I will need about the same again. [Its about 800nm and 6 months apart]

We sail, its what we do - thats why we blog on SN. So I do appreciate people learning the old arts, using less technology etc - Be as self sustainable as I can. ** I qualify this comment, knowing I have the ability to earn enough $ to get things fixed if need be}

Anne Gash sailed around the world in a folkboat without an engine - Why cant we use our sails more?
 
#10 ·
When i as young (26) and had a waterfront apartment and a race dingy i sailed everyday in out of the narrow Patchogue river and never had a problem

Pretty sure i new how to sail at that point

When we had the V18 and then the J24 in the same place i am pretty sure i had become a better sailor BUT sailing in and out with the powerboat traffic was a bit different on larger boat and not so sure it was really all that fair to the other boats :)
 
#11 ·
The OB probably won't get you through the canal as others have said. The weight of the OB is at the end of the boat... not a good place for sailing performance. Then you have gas on the boat rather than diesel. Can you sail without an engine? Sure. There' a Triton locally that I've seen out with a very nice rowing set up. That said, around here, there are a number of places where you'd have a hard time rowing against tide, days with very very little wind, or passing through locks. If you don't have to worry about time and can wait around for slack tide and wind, no problem. We don't motor much as our hull is easily driven in light air, but I'm on the side of having an engine for many reasons including safety.
 
#12 ·
here's another take:
While you are ditching the engine, also ditch the chart plotter, the compass, the windex, the vhf, the self-steering gear, the flare gun. You will save weight, have fewer systems to maintain, and sailors sailed for hundreds of years without that stuff, right?
An engine is a piece of safety equipment- using it is a choice, and having the choice gives you options. Options are good.

Reading between the lines, since you have now amended your original engineless plan to incorporate a 15 hp O/B, you are scared of your diesel engine. don't be.
For cruising, a diesel IB has HUUUUUUUUUGE advantages over jury-rigging an outboard on the transom-

1. Range.
2. Safety- diesel is a lower combustion fuel, safer to store in jerrycans on deck.
3. Repairability- every port on the planet has a dude who knows how to fix diesels, O/B's? Not so much, especially with the proliferation of models form market to market. Often getting parts for American market O/Bs is difficult outside of North America.
4. Easier to self-diagnose and repair than a gas engine. Really. You need fewer tools to repair a diesel, fewer spares to keep on board, fewer small finicky parts to lose overboard, and less plastic. Have you ever seen the innards of a 15 hp O/B? Them things is complicated.
5. Diesels are less concerned about fuel quality and don't care about octane issues. Try running your American spec shiny new outboard on a jerrycan of old Pemex that you topped up when you stopped in Ensenada two weeks ago.
6. resale value- if memory serves, you were trying to sell your boat a while back. Your plans changed and you decided to keep her (good choice). But, at some point, you are going to want to sell her again. there are few better ways to guarantee a bargain basement fire sale price than to advertise " Alberg 30 with 15hp O/B for sale"
7. No fabrication required- you hang an outboard, you are going to need to figure out how to vent the locker you plan to keep your gas tank in, you are going to have to run fuel lines, and unless you plan to hang over the transom to run it, throttle lines, you should install a blower in your fuel locker, which means additional wiring a diesel doesn't require.

If you want to keep it simple, then keep the diesel.
 
#15 ·
One thing to consider though is without an engine your options for charging your batteries and generating electricity change quite a bit, and not for the better.

Also, you won't have hot water, which is a luxury on a smaller sailboat, but easily accommodated if you have an in-board engine.

I do agree that an engine can be considered safety gear, but not an outboard on a boat not designed for one. My boat was designed for use with an outboard as the auxiliary engine, and as such has some features that make it unlikely that the prop will come out of the water. Your boat is not, and trying to retrofit a small outboard to work will be a serious compromise at best.

Considering your plans—which apparently include a Panama Canal crossing, it would be wise to at least consider whether ditching the engine is all that wise.
 
#16 ·
I sailed keelboats without engines for nine years. The first was a 20' finkeel sloop, the second a 26' yawl, four tons. I also enjoyed the challenge and romance of sail only. You certainly have learned the right way: practicing with power as a backup. I also experienced many of the limits above: not sailing on light or fluky days to avoid being becalmed, avoiding high traffic or crowded harbors to prevent risk or inconvenience. Of course, I had a work schedule. I suggest that you rig and carry a long oar. I could row either of these boats slowly in a calm with one oar and a steady stroke (don't bother pulling hard or fast). I managed fine, cruising both shores of Long Island, including ocean inlets. There were a few times I was delayed overnight, or had a cruise shortened by calms. I wouldn't change what I did, but I'm not going to take the engine out of my (much larger) ketch either.
 
#17 ·
I wouild think very hard about that 1 %

Pulling out an inboard engine only to carry an outboard makes little sense.
I will second and third...the fact that your engine is a valuable piece of safety equipment. Without engine power and without wind a sailboat underway, not making way can be a hazard to navigation and to themselves. Access to many ports would be impossible without an engine. When sudden squalls come upon you, an engine is often the difference between being safe or getting hammered. Sailing is green enough. Nothing requires you to use it more than necessary, but when it's necessary it's a darn good piece of equipment to have.

Best wishes , with whatever you decide.
 
#19 ·
one point to consider if you are going be in a slip it will be hard to manuver in/out when the conditions are ripe for windy sailing. i was futzing around and a guy and his kid/grandkid were going out of the neighboring dock... no motor. windy conditions with significant gusts. they get out in the channel and realize its a bad idea so tack back toward their slip. before dropping the main they get hit with a puff and come in wayyyy hot and crash the bow into the dock.

so i see the same dudes in the parking lot the next day, same conditions and think 'there is no way they are trying this again!!' then i notice they are unloading the scuba gear to asses the damage....
 
#24 ·
before dropping the main they get hit with a puff and come in wayyyy hot and crash the bow into the dock.
Chris:

Crashing into a dock would be your problem, as the dock would probably "win".

I'm more concerned about your crashing into my boat as you try to navigate the fairway under sail only.

Yes, great skill to have, but not at the risk of damaging my boat.

Paul
 
#20 ·
Well, we are right there on the edge of yanking out the Yanmar.

1- Simplicity - No engine means less maintenance or failure points. One less system to deal with. take a diesel engine class

2- Costs - Obviously when you have no inboard, you have no costs associated with an inboard. No stuffing box to deal with, no fuel, etc.
it will make your boat worthless for resale. If I can do the maintenance you can.

3- Space - The Alberg has a massive amount of space where the engine lives, and when that becomes storage space you gain valuable live aboard space everywhere else. Not only the engine space, but all of the spare parts and whatnot that need to go with it.
just a silly rationalization

4 - Lifestyle - It fits our desired lifestyle and beliefs. We are purists we are coming to realize, and once we go, we won't be under timetables anymore. If we can't sail there "right now", we will wait until we can. Even mariners of old at least had oars

5- Thru hulls - We want to minimize holes below the waterline. There will still be a few, but not as many as now. And no drag from a prop either. That hole is getting glassed over. the holes are already there. they have valves. prop drag is not that much to give up unless your racing, or get a folding prop.

6- Skill - Yes, we have a belief that people sailed hundreds of years without engines, and it takes a bit higher level of skill to sail engine-less. We are coming to find out that we aren't just cruisers who want to get to a destination, we are cruisers who really get into the act of sailing itself. That's a huge part of the appeal to us. The journey and the destination. Sailing into and out of our slip is a favorite thing we do, and we think it reveals something about the way we like to sail. And none of that skill can be used to maintain an engine?

7- Profit, instead of loss - Instead of putting money into the engine before we throw the lines off, we plan to pull money out of it instead by selling it. It runs good and should fetch a few grand that can be put towards other more important things for Heron. This is silly. your own statement says it runs good! It will nearly cost you to remove it for what you sell if for.

Any here cruising without an engine? Thoughts? Have we finally lost it?
You know the answer you don't need to ask for it.
 
#23 ·
Good advice. We broke down last year only 40 miles from home. It took us two days to sail halfway home and we still had Deception Pass between us and our slip. It was another adventure, but it wasn't fun. Like other safety equipment, I'd rather have it and not use it than the other way around.
 
#25 ·
I have a 15hp outboard on my tender which is much less weight than your sailboat. I can go through 5 gallons of gas a day pretty easy. Now, that is planning out and pulling kids, etc, but my point is that they are horribly inefficient (my 54 hp diesel yanmar sucks 1 gph at max cruising speed). BTW, my outboard was like $2200 IIRC. Yamaha. New. How much are you going to get for that diesel engine once you rip it out... assuming you can even find a buyer? Plus, instead of storing diesel on your boat, you now are storing gas which stinks and is explosive. And storing gasoline on decks is a real pain in the butt. The tanks get hot and expand and contract and often will begin losing their gas via vapor. And storing it down below where it stays ot of the direct sun is crazy. I hate gasoline... though it is a neccessary evil for us as cruisers (us... not everyone).

I think ripping out your diesel is a terrible idea. Want to go without the engine? Fine. Go without it. But leave it in there and fil up your tanks with diesel. Better to have it and not need it than the other way around. Also (as was mentioned) is the point of charging your batteries - or are you going to go with all solar panels or a gas generator too? I dropped over $7,000 in my solar setup to be independent. If you go the gas generator option, once again, you have to carry even MORE gas. Plus, you now have the cost of buying the gas generator too. WHen this is all said and done, I seriously doubt you will save one penny from ripping out that diesel. In fact, it might cost a small fortune.

I think a diesel engine is a sailors best friend. They are reliable, the are efficient, and they are safe. They are not as reliable as sails, but I have sure spent many a day out there with zero wind and would have hated not having a diesel. I almost always am fighting opposing currents and wind to dock or make a tight channel. And to be honest, there will be many, many, many areas of the ICW that you will not be able to transit under sail.

Brian

PS Yes, all of this is from experience. And the adage that the old sailors did it without engines is not completely true. They had oars and rowed - and did it quite proficiently. And quite candidly, they were a lot better sailors than most of us. But I bet you money that if there were such things as engines, they would have had them aboard.
 
This post has been deleted
#48 · (Edited)
Wow, I would give going engine-less a 99% negative rating in this thread, which I cannot ignore.

I honestly believed we could do this anywhere (since we do it here), but you guys are definitely giving me pause.
A couple of thoughts... having never sailed in C.Bay, but sailing in one's home waters with local knowledge of tides, conditions, etc.... is a completely different experience than sailing (or motoring ) into or along an unfamiliar harbor or coast. The things we do with great confidence locally all have to be reconsidered from the ground up when in unfamiliar waters. Local heroes are easily cowed in bigger ponds beyond their first hand knowledge. An engine is insurance for when you eventually (and we all do eventually) run into trouble in a new area. Figure you could sail your boat into a slip in a new marina in 25kts of breeze? Or find good bottom in a tight anchorage in that same 25 kts? And you want to be fiddling around with an OB somehow mounted to your boat (are you thinking an engine well? Could be a good solution, but not as good as an inboard on your boat) in new and tight places? When looking out for commercial traffic? Or dealing with localized current conditions that aren't in the cruising guide? Just doesn't seem very smart. Sure, chuck the fridge, etc..., but keep your engine.

The other thing is related to your concerns for personal security a la the guns while cruising thread. Using your operating logic about guns (again, i have no issue with that... carry what you want. It's your call), without an engine, you're much more at the mercy of the elements and the kindness of strangers when you'll eventually need a tow off a sandbar, or your stuck wallowing around in no wind off a distance coast... the bad guys you fear will quickly figure you're unable to move, and you'll have successfully made yourself a nice target. In terms of prioritizing safety, I'd think an engine would be a much better personal security investment than any gun.
 
#27 ·
I have been engineless, by accident not on purpose, when we hit a fishing net under - taking out our transmission (we were really transmissionless, the engine was OK). That was in the middle of the Pacific high - no wind. It was one of the most trying experiences in my boating experience.

If you are committed, you might want to look at the work of Lin and Larry Pardey. (Sailing Blog | Nautical Book Authors | Lin & Larry Pardey)
 
#28 ·
If you pull the engine you will lose about 400 lbs of weight
down low which may have a negative effect on the boat's stability if
not replaced. Even if you use lead bars they will take up some space
and should definitely be well secured.
I would imagine there is some room down in the bilge to add 400 lbs? The Alberg designed boat I have has a stupid deep bilge.

I would imagine that once you are 'out there', the docking issue wouldn't come up often if you anchor-out.
 
#29 ·
One that has not been mentioned, not sure how many times I have read where a person gets anchored, and a storm rolls in, and the motor is what keeps them from dragging anchor(s)! granted not full power, but enough to take some 20-30% of the winds, ie hurricane force! off the anchor, them in the water vs on the shore.

I've rowed across lake washington as a teen with my 8' pram enough when the wind died, ie 2-3 miles to not want a boat without a motor. OR the time my oar locks broke, then had to hitch a tow. Then with currents in the 5-8 knot range locally, ie Puget Sound/ salish sea including the BC waters north of me. No wind, 8 knot current in front of you, not that my motor will over power 8 knots, none the less, I would keep my 20hp Yanmare 2gm20! or what ever the model number is.....

Hot water heater, working fridge......do not have them now, a bit of water heated on the stove is all one needs to daily wash with etc. Ice, will last a few days, to a week if you have a "REALLY" good ice chest! Enough for most passages. And if you need more ice than 5-7 days, you better have lots of canned, freezed dried or dehydrated food along, or something that will last more than food in a fridge or equal. IC is obviously out the door!

Marty
 
#32 ·
I have never sought advise on something I was 99% sure of...

If the $5,000 you believe you will get from the sale of your used Diesel motor is going to have an impact on your life then I doubt you are financially able to drop everything and sail off into the Sunset without a backward glance.

My advise would be to save up the $5,000 required to charter a boat for 10 days. Fly to the Bahamas and go for 10 days with the motor off... see how it works for you. If you need to start the motor once for any reason then you have your answer.

This thread to me seems like an answer looking for a problem, i.e. you want help in convincing yourself of a poor choice.

My 2 cents.
 
#35 · (Edited)
I have never sought advise on something I was 99% sure of...

This thread to me seems like an answer looking for a problem, i.e. you want help in convincing yourself of a poor choice.

My 2 cents.
Bingo! I was just going to write the same thing. If you are this easily swayed by the people that have replied here on something you are/were 99% sure of, then you haven't thought this through nearly enough. Did you not run all the scenarios that have been brought up here before making your decision? If not, why not? If you're going to do it, do it, but nothing that has been said here should have been news to you if you have rationally thought about this decision.
My two cents, added to the above two cents, with another couple of bucks you can buy a cup of coffee.
 
#33 ·
While I can totally relate to the 'purist,' ideals, I think the buck definently stops at the diesel. No AC? Fine. Only the bare minimum in electronics? Sure. Relying 100% on sails and wind power with plans of crossing the Pacific? mmmmmmmmmm no. I am looking for a boat right now in the 25' foot range that I will take from FL to the Bahamas and back and I do not even consider boats with outboards. Its diesel or nothing. If its nothing, maybe Ill see if your interested :)
Good luck.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top