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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Racing > Start rule question different fleets
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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-27-2010 10:39 AM
US27inKS
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
A good sportsman will live with the consequences of there mistakes and not involve others

Will you still agree with this on a light air day as you catch up to, but then are unable to pass the last Atlantic (the one with the foul bottom?) on the course, and your competitors in the J/24 fleet slip by the two of you?

I would be covering the other boats in my division and if i was in the above position i would have to live with the consequences of the POOR tactics involved in putting MYSELF there

It could be argued that the other skipper put himself in a poor position. I would say that he was the victim of an unfortunate wind shift. On a lake in Kansas, wind shifts happen without warning and are certainly unpredictable, especially on light air days. On this day the wind shifted about 50 degrees en-route from the windward mark to the reaching mark. The unfortunate skipper in an Ultima 20 found himself behind me when the wind shift occurred. The other boats in his fleet were already past me. He didn't ask me to pull over, I offered. Was it unfair to the other racers? I guess you could argue that, but in many other forms of racing slower competitors are REQUIRED to pull over for faster competitors, so that racers can RACE.

I don't know where you sail Tommays, but sailing in Kansas isn't like sailing on big water. There are certainly challenges that happen on big water that will never happen on a lake in KS, but we have our own set of challenges. Wind shifts when racing is one of them. We are accustomed to tacking or gybing every 10 minutes or less if the wind doesn't shift. On a "light and variable" day, we may be tacking every 2-3 minutes just to stay pointed at the mark. In fact, we started one race on port tack and never had to tack to the windward mark, but we were flying the spinnaker when we got there. It's a PITA but we all understand that getting caught behind a slower boat may not necessarily be the result of poor tactics. It could just be bad luck.

BTW the other racers in his fleet thought I was a nice guy for letting him by as well.
11-27-2010 08:05 AM
maxmunger There is no way to tell what is going on here. The story keeps changing. Which mark (pin or RC) are they approaching on what tack? B can hardly be timing his start if running parallel to the line for very long.
A could be late for lots of reasons and has full rights to start, however both are racing and those rules must be followed. B may not be aware that A is in a different fleet.
It is shame that two boats can screw around and perhaps spoil the racing for others. Both must be real novices!
11-27-2010 05:58 AM
tommays A good sportsman will live with the consequences of there mistakes and not involve others

Will you still agree with this on a light air day as you catch up to, but then are unable to pass the last Atlantic (the one with the foul bottom?) on the course, and your competitors in the J/24 fleet slip by the two of you?

I would be covering the other boats in my division and if i was in the above position i would have to live with the consequences of the POOR tactics involved in putting MYSELF there



Rule 17 ? Boat A's proper course is pointing as high as she possibly can, to try to get to the windward mark. She has started. Boat B apparently prevented her from sailing her proper course, and should have been protested. Boat B, before her starting signal, has no proper course.

There is no rule 17 before the start

"A lighter and faster boat from another fleet was right on my tail. He couldn't go above me, and tried to go below, only to be trapped by my wind shadow. I asked him if I went down, could he get above me? He said yes, so I did and he did. I don't think"

Rule 17 was broken HERE we gotta follow all THE RULES


This other A-B thing involved a LOT more than 2 boats or they would have had no problem getting over the line
11-26-2010 07:45 PM
paulk
No mercy?

Quote:
When we go into sequence it involves 45 boats in 5 divisions and keeping OUT of the starting area out of sequence is just the only way it can work as its enough of a fire drill with the 8 to 10 boats that belong there "

So a boat that had crew stuck in traffic on the LIE, and which arrives at the starting area 30 seconds after their starting signal, has to wait a half hour, for all the other boats to start, before she begins her race?


"I think pulling over so to speak to allow a boat that put themselves in a bad position to improve there finish is not really to fair the other boats in that division AND THEN THERE IS RULE 17
Will you still agree with this on a light air day as you catch up to, but then are unable to pass the last Atlantic (the one with the foul bottom?) on the course, and your competitors in the J/24 fleet slip by the two of you?

Rule 17 ? Boat A's proper course is pointing as high as she possibly can, to try to get to the windward mark. She has started. Boat B apparently prevented her from sailing her proper course, and should have been protested. Boat B, before her starting signal, has no proper course.
11-26-2010 07:20 PM
paulk
Not always right, but never in doubt?

Quote:
... No one was protested...Whether in the right or wrong, Boat B skipper likes to work things out on the water and not burden the CB with BS.
If Boat B likes to work things out on the water, then he should know his rules better for next time. Boat A should have seen him coming and gone around his transom (already suggested) or taken him up to the moon, as leeward boat.
11-26-2010 09:02 AM
tommays "Yachts shall keep clear of the starting line or its extensions by a minimum of 30 yards after the initial Warning signal is made and until the Warning signal is made for their division start. Offending yachts may be protested."

When we go into sequence it involves 45 boats in 5 divisions and keeping OUT of the starting area out of sequence is just the only way it can work as its enough of a fire drill with the 8 to 10 boats that belong there




"A lighter and faster boat from another fleet was right on my tail. He couldn't go above me, and tried to go below, only to be trapped by my wind shadow. I asked him if I went down, could he get above me? He said yes, so I did and he did. I don't think"

I think pulling over so to speak to allow a boat that put themselves in a bad position to improve there finish is not really to fair the other boats in that division AND THEN THERE IS RULE 17
11-26-2010 08:44 AM
NotQuiteCapnRon Thanks guys....Most of what has been contributed to this string is pretty much what I thought too, but I really couldn't find a rule other than 2 or 23 as mentioned. What I get from the opinions here is Boat A is an unintentional Jerk and Boat B is a Jerk on purpose.


No one was protested...Whether in the right or wrong, Boat B skipper likes to work things out on the water and not burden the CB with BS.
11-25-2010 10:33 PM
US27inKS
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotQuiteCapnRon View Post
Exactly!

I will add that in this situation boat B was hailed and made aware that Boat A was trying to start. Boat B responded with "I don't care you are in my box". I'm looking for a rule that supports that response.

Thanks
By the rules, boat B was wrong and should have been protested. While it would be technically correct to protest him, I don't think I would have. Boat A was already 3 minutes late, and could have easily eased a bit to slow down and let boat B get by. Then sheet back in and you're off to the races 3:15 late instead of whatever you were after all the commotion. After all, aren't we talking about racing for bragging rights and plastic trophies? Neither of which are going to be won 3 minutes late to the line.

Being a good sport (and it doesn't sound like boat B's driver is) is more important than being right, especially if I have no chance of winning. A good example of this was a couple of years ago on a very light air day. The wind shifted enough that we were close hauled to the reaching mark. A lighter and faster boat from another fleet was right on my tail. He couldn't go above me, and tried to go below, only to be trapped by my wind shadow. I asked him if I went down, could he get above me? He said yes, so I did and he did. I don't think he won, but he had a fighting chance. It took me a bit to recover from going too low, but the faster boats in my fleet were long gone so it really didn't matter. Later at the clubhouse the other sailor told everyone what a great guy I am. Better than a plastic trophy any day.
11-25-2010 08:57 PM
Classic30
Quote:
Originally Posted by NotQuiteCapnRon View Post
Exactly!

I will add that in this situation boat B was hailed and made aware that Boat A was trying to start. Boat B responded with "I don't care you are in my box". I'm looking for a rule that supports that response.

Thanks
If two boats are on the same tack, the windward boat has to keep clear of the leeward boat, but, unfortunately, a hail that "I'm trying to start!" isn't likely to get a positive response...

My take on it is that, under this scenario, Rule 2 (above) is all you've got.. since you were both "racing" at the time. If a collision occured he'd most likely have been in the wrong.
11-25-2010 07:30 PM
NotQuiteCapnRon
Quote:
Just to be clear. In this scenario, was boat B running parallel to the line and boat A was close hauled trying to start? Then did Boat B cut off Boat A and force him down the line
Exactly!

I will add that in this situation boat B was hailed and made aware that Boat A was trying to start. Boat B responded with "I don't care you are in my box". I'm looking for a rule that supports that response.

Thanks
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