SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!
Status
Not open for further replies.

Interesting Sailboats

3M views 7K replies 205 participants last post by  tdw 
#1 · (Edited)
Sirius 32, Sirius 35

THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:

Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out). Recent designs out of production are also admissible.

Modern boat designs and modern one off, if interesting.

Classical boats and traditional boats.

Small cruisers (less than 35ft)

Seezunge 27ft: PG1-PT9

Hanse 325: PG19-PT185;

Presto 30 : 33-326; 33-327; 34-331; 34-333; 55-543; 55-544;

Tess Yachts: 37-366; 38-373;

Tess 28 Magnum: 37-369; 38-371;

Delphia 28: 38-373;

Vancouver 27/28 : 42-412; 72-717;

Cruisers between 35ft and 49ft


Catalina 355 : 31-306;

RM sailboats: PG5-PT41; 5-42

RM1050: PG5-PT46; 5-47; 5-48;

RM 1060: PG8-PT77; 8-78; 8-79; 8-80; 9-81; 30-295; 40-400; 79-786;

RM 1200: PG9-PT84; 9-85; 19-184; 20-191; 20-192; 41-404; 42-414; 42-418; 43-425; 43-426; 69-688;

RM 1350: PG9-PT82; 55-549; 95-943;

Morris Yachts: PG7-PT61

Bavaria 36: PG19-PT188; 19-190; 20-196;

Bavaria 40: PG10-PT95; 28-278; 29-281; 29-282; 29-283; 29-286; 32-316; 36-356; 51-502; 51-507; 52-518; 53-527; 53-532;

Bavaria 40s: 69-685; 78-775;

Bavaria 45: PG10-PT96; 19-190;

Rustler Yachts: PG11-PT104;

Jeanneau 409: PG11-PT103: 11-106; 30-298; 30-299; 36-356; 51-502; 51-504; 51-505; 51-509; 52-513; 52-514; 52-515; 52-516; 53-527; 54-532; 57-564; 57-570; 58-571; 58-580; 59-581; 59-583; 59-585; 62-614; 74-739; 91-906;

Jeanneau 439: 40-396; 40-397; 59-584; 59-585; 96-956;

Hanse Yachts: 16-154; 16-156; 16-158;

Hanse 400: 81-804;

Bluewater cruising yachts: 21-206

Beneteau Oceanis 37 : 31-306; 31-308; 31-309; 32-314; 55-541;

XC 38: 36-356; 96-954;

Diva 38: 39-386;

Diva 35: 40-391;

Dufour 405: 62-614;

Defline 43: 63-622

Walkabout 43: 93-923; 93-925; 93-927;

Small performance cruisers (less than 35ft)


Performance 32ft test: 29-87;

Sun Fast 3200: PG4-PT33; 4-34; 4-36; 30-293;

Elan 210: 70-691; 70-696; 78-779; 79-781;

Elan 310: PC7-PT64; 7-69; 8-71; 36-356; 41-408;

Quest 33: PG7-PT62

Olea 32: 25-243; 25-245;

First 27.7: 38-373; 38-380; 39-382;

First 30: 30-295; 39-356; 41-408; 55-545; 55-546;

Comet 26: 34-340; 35-345; 35-350; 36-353;

Pacer 30: 36-357;

Django 7.7: 40-399;

Vivace/Evosion 34: 45-442; 45-446; 45-445; 45-446; 45-447; 45-448; 45-449; 45-450; 46-458; 46-460;

Finn Flyer 34: 46-451; 46-453; 60-593;

Salona 34: 46-457;

Heol 7.4: 63-621; 63-622;

Azuree 33: 87-867; 91-902; 91-904;

JPK 10.10: 88-877 ; 88-880; 89-883;

Performance cruisers (between 35ft and 49ft)

Pogo 10.50: PG2-PT20; 3-27; 3-28; 3-30; 4-35; 5-50; 6-51; 6-52; 6-60; 11-101; 11-107; 11-110; 43-425; 44-440; 87-861; 87-867;

Pogo 12.50: PG13-PT125; 20-198; 20-199; 22-214; 27-264; 27-265; 27-269; 32-317; 32-319; 43-425; 43-426; 43-428; 44-432; 44-437; 44-439; 55-546; 55-547; 82-812; 84-831; 87-870;

Este 40: 89-890; 90-893; 90-899;

A35: PG5-PT42; 5-44; 66-660;

A40RC: 92-914;

Hammerhead 35: 64-645

Opium 39: PG5-PT42; 9-85; 9-89; 13-125; 22-220; 22-221; 43-426; 55-547; 86-857;

Aerodyne 35: PG7-PT62

Elan 350: PG7-PT64; 13-24; 13-126; 13-127; 13-128; 14-132; 18-178; 26-255; 36-356; 40-398; 41-405; 57-564; 59-589; 60-591; 72-711; 73-724; 74-738;

Elan 380: 23-223; 25-249; 26-256; 40-398; 59-589; 97-962;

Elan 410: 32-316; 79-784;

JPK 110: PG9-PT85; 10-91

Olea 44: PG10-PT100; 27-268;

Olea Yachts: 25-247;

Dufour 40e: Pg13-Pt125; 32-316; 55-547; 56-558; 56-559; 57-561; 57-562; 57-563; 59-586; 59-588,

Salona 37: 36-359; 41-406;

Salona 41: PG15-PT141; 15-145; 32-316; 36-356; 40-398; 54-538; 57-569; 78-778; 80-796; 80-798; 97-965;

Salona 42: PG15-PT145; 36-359; 40-398; 93-929; 94-932;

Cigale 16: PG15-PT148; 16-152; 17-161; 55-549; 63-625;

Cigale 14: PG17-PT163; 55-549;

Santa Cruz 43: PG17-PT169

Sydney Yachts: PG18-PT171; 18-175;

Sydney GTS 37: 43-423;

Sydney GTS 43: PG18-PT173;

Winner 12.20: PG20-193;

First 40: 31-304; 32-313; 32-316; 35-344; 36-354; 55-546; 55-547;

First 35: 36-356

Dehler 41: 30-296;

Dehler 44: 79-785;

Dehler 45: 36-356; 79-785;

Luffe 40.04: 30-300; 31-301; 31-303;

XP 38: 56-533; 56-544; 56-555; 67-622;

XP 44: 33-325;

Pacer 430: 36-357;

Pacer 376: 36-357; 66-652; 69-683;

Faurby 424: 36-360; 37-361; 37-363; 37-365;

Comfortina 39: 40-395;

J 133: 43-426; 63-620

J 111: 100-993;

Maxi 11: 99-982;

Arcona yachts: 46-456;

Arcona 410: 47-467; 47-468; 47-469; 48-471;

Arcona 430: 48-472;

Arcona 460: 50-495

Finngulf yachts: 46-456;

Varianta 44: 60-594; 60-595; 60-596; 60-597; 60-598; 64-639;

Imagine 53: 63-628;

Zou 40.2: 63-620

Ker 39: 68-676;

Finn-Flyer 42: 77-762;

Azuree 40: 85-842;

Loft 40: 85-848; 85-852;

Vivace 35: 90-895;

Sailing boats over 49ft

Zeydon 60 : PG 12-119;

JP 54: PG18-PT172;

Salona 60: 70-695;

Stadships: PG20-PT193; 20-195;

Pogo 50: 32-318; 32-319;

X-50: 54-537;

Murtic 52: 54-537;

Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats

Sirius 32: PG1-PT1

Sirius 35: PG1-PT1; 1-10; 2-18; 50-491; 50-492; 60-559; 60-599;

Sirius 31: PG1-PT5; 2-17; 36-356;

Regina 35: 48-478;

Regina 40: PG11-PT104; 49-481; 49-483;

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Luffe 43DS: PG12-PT111; 12-115; 50-494;

Noordkaper 40: PG14-pt139;

Noordkaper yachts: PG16-PT155

Nordship 36: 30-297; 49-482;

Nordship 38: 49-482; 49-490;

Paulo's pilot house I: 38-376; 39-381; 39-383; 39-384;

Paulo's pilot house II: 69-682

Lyman & Morse 45: 38-379;

CR 38DS: 48-477; 48-478;

CR 40DS: 48-476; 48-478; 48-479; 50-494; 50-496; 50-497; 50-498;

Arcona 40DS: 50-494;

Racers

Figaro 2:pG4-PT36; 4-37; 5-42; 6-52; 6-53; 6-55; 6-56

VOR 70: PG16-PT160; 17-187

Farr 400: 67-661

Soto 40: 96-952;

Lifting keel/centerboarder

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Allures 45: PG10-PT93; 100-996;

Allures yachts: 25-248;

OVNI 425: 23-228;

OVNI 395 : 68-679; 69-690;

J 108: 67-661

Atlantic 43: 68-67

Boreal 44: 97-970; 98-974;

Multihulls till 34ft

Several Trimarans: 28-273;

Multihulls with 34ft and over

Dragonfly yachts: 26-257;

Dragonfly 35: 26-258; 27-261; 27-262;

Dragonfly 1200: 56-551;

Corsair 37: 28-276;

Farrier 39: 28-277;

Challenge 37: 28-278

Hammerhead 34: 29-385;

Hammerhead 54: 29-288; 30-292;

Trimax 10.80: 29-285;

Sig 45: 54-534; 54-539; 54-540;

Gunboat: 56-551

Fusion: 56-551;

Outremer: 56-551;

Tournier: 56-511;

Classical and Traditional boats

Jclass boats: 54-537;

Tofinou 12: 71-703;

Folck boat: 73-727;

Puffin Yachts: PG14-PT135; 14-138; 16-155;

Bestwind 50: PG12-PT116; 14-123;

Bestevaer 53: PG12-PT116;

Bestevaer yachts: PG16-PT155

Cape George 36: 41-410; 42-412;

Marieholm 33 : 42-412;

This list is not actualized. Please use the advanced search engine of the thread with the name of the model and builder. It works, most of the time.

(actualized till PG100) and it will be no more because that gives a lot of work (500 pages now).

Instead I am actualizing the titles and with the right title the thread search engine (not the one on the top of the page bit the one much below that says search thread) on its advanced option works quite well.

Hello,

Melrna posts on Miami Boat show and the comments of Smackdady about the interest of that thread lead me to think that perhaps I could share more information about sailboats I know and find interesting.

I am interested in boat design (interior and sailing performance) and I go each year at least to one of the main European Boat shows and that means basically Dusseldorf, Paris or Hamburg. On these shows you have the opportunity not only to visit the boats of the main and medium size builders but you have also the opportunity to visit the boats of small and sometime family shipyards.

Normally they build very good sailboats and sometimes they have been doing that for decades. The boats are hugely appreciated by their faithful customers but because they don't advertise their boats and there are very few on the used boat market, they pass unnoticed by the majority of the sail community.

The visit to these boats is a very rewarding experience because they are made with passion by true boat lovers and because when you talk to the guy that is on the boat, you are not talking with a dealer, that many times doesn't know much about boats, but with the builder, or the designer.

Even if you are not a buyer they will have real pleasure in talking with someone that really appreciates and understands their work. Those guys really believe in what they are doing and they do it the best way they can, no matter the cost. In a word, they are in love with what they are doing.
Of course, these boats have to be expensive.

This thread will be mainly about these boats, as a way of letting you know about these gems. Let's see if you are interested. I will not post much. If you want to know more you have just to participate and make questions.

The first one it will be the "Sirius". I have had the pleasure to visit several times their boats and to talk with the builders (father and son).

These boats have the best interiors you can find, or at least that I have seen. Not only the quality, but the design and ergonomy are fantastic. You really won't believe you are in a 32ft boat. Just incredible and amazing; Have a look at it:

Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin | 32 DS for 2 forecabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | 32 DS 4-berth comfort owner´s cabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Workshop | 32 DS for 2 workshop

Now that the son is in charge they have modernized the outside look of the new boats, they look fantastic not only inside but also outside. The boats sail well and they have clients as far as Japan.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Versions of decks house | You have the choice

Another interesting point is the way they develop new boats. They work with the clients to collect suggestions on the shape and design of the boats. A truly interesting affair, between passionate clients and passionate builders.

Sirius-Werft Plön | 35 DS | Philosophy

Take a good look at their interesting site and if you find the boat interesting, please let me know, I can add some information.

Sirius-Werft Plön | english | Welcome at website of Sirius-Werft Plön

Regards

Paulo
 
See less See more
#570 ·
Pacific Seacraft is also still making some smaller ones.
 
#573 · (Edited)
Tofinou 12

Since we are talking about Classic boats I would like to show a favorite of mine: The Tofinou. They are all beautiful but the new one is the 12 (40ft) and that's the one I will post.

This boat is for the ones that love to sail and want a fast boat and a beautiful boat that will never grew old. Forever beautiful, its a hard thing to get:D

This one will suit the lovers of beauty and fast sailing that want a boat for weekends or short holidays, a week or so. After all this is the program of a lot of sailors.

Take a look at pure beauty, at least for the eyes of a sailor:)

















Latitude 46

Regards

Paulo
 
#574 ·
For what she is meant for that is one lovely boat. Old Phillipe S must be mellowing in his old age. Paulo, do you remember that thing he designed for Beneteau in the late seventies or early eighties ?
 
#577 ·
..Old Phillipe S must be mellowing in his old age. Paulo, do you remember that thing he designed for Beneteau in the late seventies or early eighties ?
Have an idea. It was a strange thing:D But I have a big respect for the guy. Love lots of its designs and he lives well, with good taste. Do you know that he lives on Formentera and that his normal vehicle for going shopping or elsewhere is a hobie cat?

He designed one that seems that is going to be produced by hobie Europa. I am not sure if I like the functional aspect, but its certainly different. I am very curious to see one and reserve my opinion till that moment;)

http://www.hobie-cat.net/img/news/dp_hbystarck_gb.pdf

Regards

Paulo
 
#578 ·
Paulo,
We worked with a Spanish furniture maker in the late eighties who was the first furniture maker to use Stark designs. I've always liked his designs though some of them would be very hard to actually live with. As you say, he seems to live well with good taste which is somewhat unusual these days.
I knew that PS had a house in Barcelona but not Formentera. What a lovely island. Probably getting over developed now but when I went there a decade ago it was wonderful. Spanish style, elegent, fabulous bars and restaurants but still with a dash of counter culture.
Cheers
Andrew

ps - I do like the look of that Hobie.
 
#579 ·
That E210 is a kewl looking boat for a trailer sailor! Looks like the motor goes thru the hull and belo ala a saildrive style, but pulls up with a flush bottom somehow? way kewl if it does that.

Hoping to get onboard a J409 at the Seattle show this week. If not, I'll get by the dealer to take a peak. It will be interesting to see the new design look and feel vs the older more recent and as far back as 25 yrs like my Arcadia.

Had a good weekend skiing, ala on snow skiing vs on liquid water!

Marty
 
#641 · (Edited)
Elan 210 movie

That E210 is a kewl looking boat for a trailer sailor! Looks like the motor goes thru the hull and belo ala a saildrive style, but pulls up with a flush bottom somehow? way kewl if it does that.
....
Marty
Hey Marty, now I can answer to that.:D



I had a good look at the boat (Dusseldorf boat show) and I can tell you that the boat looks as amazing live as in the photos.

Yes it is a trailer boat. The rudders pop out and the keel goes up but the most outstanding is that engine set up. I saw how it works. The engine is fixed to the boat by a movable bar and just swings and goes in and out of that well in a smooth movement.

With that engine in you have all the advantages of an inboard engine. All controls on the outside, including reverse, like any inboard engine, you pull it up and all the drag is gone and it stays down, on a central position, adding its weight to the ballast. Nice and very pratical;)

I had also a look at the interior that is cozy and with lot's of storage and interesting solutions, for the size of the boat. A very interesting boat, no doubt.

The boat raised a lot of interest in Dusseldorf.

Here you have a good video. It is not in English, but the images say it all:





The price starts at 21 000€

Regards

Paulo
 
#580 ·
I have to agree that E210 looks fantastic and a obvious competitor for the Benny 21.7.
Is the E210 trailerable?

I know in Oz the Benny with tlr is about $120K however you can buy used for $80K.
Wonder what the E210 comes in at.

We have a boat show in Melbourne early Feb and the Elan dealer is based at our yacht Club so I might just ask the question.

The problem with this thread is all of the great boats on the market.
I am committed to buying a boat and now I am trying to sort out which one.
I'm not sure this thread contributes or confuses!
 
#581 · (Edited)
Elan 350 Boat of the year

As probably you all know, the Elan 350 was ellected the European performance cruiser of the year.

It is interesting to look at the jury comments on the boat:

'Performance levels were incredibly high this year. This made our decision very difficult in some cases,' said YACHT editor-in-chief Jochen Rieker, summarizing the current results. 'We were also impressed with the level of innovation shown by the boat builders and by their readiness to adapt elements from the regatta scene, for example,' added the yachting expert.

In fact several jury members voiced that the 350 is the production sailing yacht they would have chosen if they were buying their boat today. Judges Toby Hodges and Matthew Sheahan from Yachting World's review also had much praise and not at all surprising when Hodges has extolled, 'I can't remember when I've had this much fun afloat before! …… Talk about a boat coming alive on the water. .....

They found the 350 steering direct and responsive and the boat a pleasure to sail, pushed hard the boat can do much more than what most people would dare to - just like a sports car. This boat is easy to handle, even under tough conditions.

It was agreed that the Elan 350 is the right boat if you are looking for a boat that balances between good sailing characteristics and covers the practical considerations for cruising, stating that there are a number of manufacturers that claim to offer this, but few deliver.

While the Dutch judge, Briek Waterkampioen, also writes he would like to own an Elan 350 - 'The boat combines the properties and what you need for cruising in a perfect way, 'says Briek.

Interior design style does not appeal to everyone; light wood, dark floorboards and sharp corners provides a modern atmosphere, but also there are conservatives in the mix that miss Elan's old mahogany furniture, 'says Curt Gélinas from Båtnytt.



Regards

Paulo
 
#583 ·
About the Elan 350:

"and sharp corners provides a modern atmosphere,"

I know that my body has a way of finding any sharp corners on a boat. I also know that sharp corners do not wear well - they tend to chip or break. I suppose that it is alot cheaper to make the sharp corners than to have more rounded shapes, but it doesn't make a good safe interior.
 
#586 ·
The woodwork and gelcoat sure is pretty, but the design sucks... those lines for the self-tacking jib are going to wear the gelcoat there really quickly. They don't lead fair.

 
#593 · (Edited)
Elan 350 boat of the year - movies



Thanks Slap. I had already posted that winning list on a dedicated thread, but that comments are very interesting:) . I will not resist to post them here.

ELAN 350

GBR - Yachting World - British Jury:

Light, direct and responsive on the helm, the 350 is an absolute pleasure to push hard. Like many modern cars, she is capable of plenty more than most people will have the nerve to try. And that bodes well when it comes to more everyday performance where she is nimble, light to handle and easy to sail at a brisk pace.
....
this boat is a perfect match for those who are looking for a boat that strikes a balance between good performance and practical requirements of family sailing. There are plenty of boats that have claimed this territory, but few that really deliver.

Below decks, despite her modest yet modern looks, she's attracted praise and criticism is equal measures. For me she's spot on, a mixture of sparking performance and a simple practical layout below.

GER - YACHT - Germany Jury:

Happy marriage between a fully fitted-out cruiser and a fast beast when ist blowing.

She needs wind and sail area to fly, but when she does she makes you want to go forever.

Great steering despite the twin rudders and twin wheels. Good cockpit layout. Super bow sprit solution. well built.

Downsides? Only one biggy: The base price is a bit misleading, fully spec'ed she will easily cost 150k or more. But of all contemporary performance cruisers her size that is still a fair deal.

ITA - Fare Vela, Italian Jury:

Maybe one of the best and more complete example of new age fast cruisers, she proved good speed and fun under sail with lots of very well thought solutions, either on deck or inside. And all this in a good looking and refined design, specially considering the hull shape.

Easy to sail fast with a lot of fun, good space inside, a perfect fast cruiser for young and sportive families.

NED - Waterkampioen, Dutch Jury:

a fantastic performance cruiser from Elan: the 350. It combines perfectly the luxury you need for (family)cruising with great sailing abilities.

Easily planing downwind, fantastic upwind. A boat that I - almost - would like to own myself.

FRA - Voile, French Jury:

A wide transom, with two rudders and a chine : it looks promising and it is !

Rob humphreys did for sure a superb job for the boat is very well balanced and the stern is always very smooth. It is not so frequent when having a double rudder.

The boat goes fast and with ease, even in the lights winds. A very good cruiser racer from whatever point of vue.

AUT - YachtRevue, Austrian Jury:

Exciting Design, exciting performance: We like the smooth movement in the waves, the way the boat accelerates going downwind and the layout of the fittings in the Clubracing-Version.

Under deck: There is more space as expected and some really nice details.

SWE - BatNytt, Swedish Jury:

Elan 350 Head-on-design with comfort:

With Elan 350 regatta sailors, solo racers and families alike get seldom seen performance.

Chines, twin rudders, extreme beam aft, give unrivalled control when cruising and inspire adventurers to test limits.

When testing the boat in 25 knots wind, we noted 14 knots on the speedo and no wipeouts. Expect even higher numbers when surfconditions are up. ...

Among the innovations we like the carbonsprit smartly hidden in the foredeck, well constructed and lowfriction steering system with GRP wheels resulting in the lightest grip experienced on any twin rudder boat so far.

Inside styling might divide fans, but light woodwork, dark floorboards and angular corners, create a without doubt a very modern atmosphere on board. ...

NOR - Seilas, Norway Jury:

Wide hull with a lot of stability is the new trend. A few yard have been pushing the ideas from the Open-classes to the mass marked, but non have made this in such a clever style as Elan.

Elan 350 looks good, works well, and will sett the benchmark for performance yachts for this class.

It's fun to sail with double digits on the log, not only at the face of a wave, but for hours.

SUI - Marina.ch, Swiss Jury:

...She combines classy sailing-performance with the comfort-needs of a non-professional crew.

A plus is the feeling at the helm - a weak point on many yachts with double-rudder configuration.

DEN - BådNyt, Danish Jury:

Modern looks, lots of comfort both in terms of sailing abilities an down below.

The wide transom and the twin rudder setup is the signature of the boats of the coming decade.

It reaches planing speed with ease and stays there for long.

The two wheels are both nice to look at and nice to control the boat with. It is a clear winner destined for succes.

Howww!!! I have been inside the boat, saw the very well designed good quality interior with lots of cruising potential, read a lot of tests, have talked with guys that had sailed the boat and all said wonders about it, but this unanimous praise of the boat is really fantastic.:) :) :) :) :) :)

I want to try it:D

Look at this movie. I have already posted it but not on HD. It takes a while to load, but it's a great quality movie;)

Elan 350 boat test on Vimeo

Regards

Paulo
 
#588 · (Edited)
As probably you are going to find that "good old boat" on the used market, I think you will find this list interesting:

Atom Voyages | Voyages Aboard the Sailboat Atom -* Good Old Boats List - choosing a* small voyaging sailboat
I all ready have that list on my desk top ;)
I'm never gonna buy a cape george cutter, their simply too costy...It would be the same thing to have a Vancouver build, just too costy for me.

Can you explain why e.g. An Elan 350 ore one with a more stylish finish would not be your choice? What makes the old boats so appealing?
Edit: I dont care if it's stylish or not, I want a practical sailboat.

I don't know... Some man really like wooden boat and can't imagine having a fiber glass one. Same thing for me, I like full keels with low beam, low freeboard,low center of gavtity, and a good V-hull shape.I just don't like those super beamy sailboats with flats under water hull that are pounding when you go up wind.

Now I know that that makes the boat slower, more tender, harder to reverse and they have less storage space, but for me thats not important. I want a boat that feel solid and that is made to take the sea, some thing heavy, not some thing that is made to be as light as possible.

I didn't post this to bash down modern sailboat, I know that they are the norm and that older design are the minority... I simply ask if there was any new old style sailboat being made.

I now that modern sailbat can be fun, I sailed a Gomen express 20 once ( modern for me :) ) and it was a real blast. But for what I want to do, I want an older design.
 
#590 ·
...
I don't know... Some man really like wooden boat and can't imagine having a fiber glass one. Same thing for me, I like full keels with low beam, low freeboard,low center of gavtity, and a good V-hull shape.I just don't like those super beamy sailboats with flats under water hull that are pounding when you go up wind.

Now I know that that makes the boat slower, more tender, harder to reverse and they have less storage space, but for me thats not important. I want a boat that feel solid and that is made to take the sea, some thing heavy, not some thing that is made to be as light as possible.

I didn't post this to bash down modern sailboat, I know that they are the norm and that older design are the minority... I simply ask if there was any new old style sailboat being made.

...
I agree with what you say, with the exceptions that above are in bold.

The boat MyOcean was given you as an example, the Elan 350 has a low freeboard and a lower center of gravity than most full keelers.

The Elan 350 is made to take the sea. It will be one of the more popular boats on the most popular amateur solo and duo transat. I am almost sure the boat was designed taking into account the characteristics needed for that race (seaworthiness, easy to handle, fast).

I will gladly accept that you prefer classic shapes ( I have a soft spot for those also) but the assumption that an heavy boat with a full keel is the only way to have seaworthiness is wrong.

In what regards stability a heavy boat will a full keel will rely mostly in static stability while a boat like the Elan 350 will rely not also on the static stability but mostly on the dynamic stability. When a capsizing wave hits the full keel boat almost all the force will be translated in a rotating movement (the big keel will prevent the boat to slide sideways). When the wave hit the low inertia light boat with a narrow keel, the boat will dissipate most of the energy sliding sideways.

Regards

Paulo
 
#589 ·
Petersailer -

Sailing is a slow, wet, expensive, time consuming activity that doesn't make any sense. So one's choice in boats does not have to make sense, either. It just has to make you happy.

:)

Speaking of older classic designs, I understand that Valiant Yachts is no longer going to build new boats.
 
#591 ·
It's sure that with that 7 feet draft the Elan have a lower center of gravity then most full keellers.
When I said that I wanted to have a boat that was made to take the sea, I didn't said that the modern sailboat aren't made to take the sea. Most of them are, but I think a few characteristic makes them more vulnerable then older design.
First the keel is not as secure, if you hit something at hight speed, you could loose your keel, I read a lot of books on ocean racing and it happens, but that was mostly on open 40,50 and 60... I don't know about the other boats like the beneteaus, jeanneaus and all that. And second, the twin rudders are not protected by the keel and they are more prone to damage.

It's really a personnal choice.

Feel free to correct me, you seem way more knowledgeable then me ;)
 
#592 ·
You are a nice guy:)

Yes you are right a full keeler has a much better protection on the rudder and the keel will resist better to a shock.

But regarding losing the keel it would be a very improbable event. The biggest problem with Open 60's and their keels is related with the kind of speeds they sail. Most of the problems had been with whales. You hit one over 20k and it is like hitting a wall. The Elan 350, while a fast boat is far from that kind of performances.

Regarding the rudders, yes they are more exposed but a lot less than on a typical monohull (they are less deep and somewhat covered by the deep keel) and you have two rudders, even if you lose one you can sail slowly with one.

But you are right, if you wanna trade that very improbable causality for the speed and sailing fun, its up to you.;)

However you will have different kinds of boats with stronger fin keels and protected rudders that will offer you about the same protection to collision with a much better sailing performance. I am thinking, for example, at Malo, Halberg-Rassy or Najad.

Regards

Paulo
 
#594 ·
PeterSailor....if you old fashioned you could always have a look at Vancouver.

Vancouver

Northshore also make Fishers, though they are hardly low freeboard.

Fisher

I must say that one thing I do agree with you about is draft. 2 metre plus draft is too deep for my needs. Our current boat is 1.8 but in truth is closer to 2.0. Thats as deep as I want to go and yes I'll sacrifice performance if necessary.

Now me, I love that Elan350 but its not the boat for me. I cannot see the torpedo bulb keel being good for anything other than performance.

OTOH....I would drive away in a Sun Odyssey 409, that is very close to ideal for me even though its not a deck saloon. Lovely looking boat.

One of the things we all need to keep in mind is the use we will put the boat to. Ultimately I am likely to be rock hopping my way around Australia. I'm not likely to spend more than the odd day or so at sea, mainly day passages except when I need to cover some distance. Bass Strait for one , maybe offshore to Lord Howe, even some parts of the NSW coast are at least an overnight between ports....unless of course you are Wild Oats X1....

I'm also not someone who goes out for a few hours sailing all that often...or not as often as some. Even if only for a weekend I head out to a favourite anchorage, drop anchor and sit tight till I have to go home Sunday evenong or Monday morning. Ergo, I need more of a comfortable home than a sports car.

Paulo and I have had this discussion before.

But....reality is that even Vancouver make a great fuss about cut away forefoot to increase performance. I see it as simply progress. Sometimes design inovation takes a backward step but its mostly forward.
 
#607 · (Edited)
Elan 350

....
I must say that one thing I do agree with you about is draft. 2 metre plus draft is too deep for my needs. Our current boat is 1.8 but in truth is closer to 2.0. Thats as deep as I want to go and yes I'll sacrifice performance if necessary.

Now me, I love that Elan350 but its not the boat for me. I cannot see the torpedo bulb keel being good for anything other than performance.

OTOH....I would drive away in a Sun Odyssey 409, that is very close to ideal for me even though its not a deck saloon. Lovely looking boat.

One of the things we all need to keep in mind is the use we will put the boat to. Ultimately I am likely to be rock hopping my way around Australia. I'm not likely to spend more than the odd day or so at sea, mainly day passages except when I need to cover some distance. Bass Strait for one , maybe offshore to Lord Howe, even some parts of the NSW coast are at least an overnight between ports....unless of course you are Wild Oats X1....

I'm also not someone who goes out for a few hours sailing all that often...or not as often as some. Even if only for a weekend I head out to a favourite anchorage, drop anchor and sit tight till I have to go home Sunday evenong or Monday morning. Ergo, I need more of a comfortable home than a sports car.

Paulo and I have had this discussion before.

But....reality is that even Vancouver make a great fuss about cut away forefoot to increase performance. I see it as simply progress. Sometimes design inovation takes a backward step but its mostly forward.
Yes, different sailors have different needs, but has you can see by the unanimous opinion of the Jury the Elan 350 suits the needs of a certain kind of cruisers...not your kind, more my kind and that don´t mean a difference between coastal and offshore, cause the 350 is an offshore boat. More a difference in style. As one of the juries have said:

"Easy to sail fast with a lot of fun, good space inside, a perfect fast cruiser for young and sportive families".





well, I am not certainly young (unless you consider the spirit:D ) bur certainly I have a sportive family that don't like fat and slow boats and that likes to have fun while sailing. Well, probably not the case with my wife but he is clearly a minority and anyway she would prefer to catch the airplane and catch us at the cruising grounds and we would prefer her to catch the airplane and let us having fun while sailing.:D So this is a perfect compromise;)

Regards

Paulo
 
#598 ·
A problem I see with a lot of the new designs is a certain emphasis on open interior layouts, which are great for socializing at the dock, but really lousy on passage in heavy weather...



Do you see any real handholds besides the ones at each end of the settee. If that's a full berth length, that's over six feet without handholds...not good.
 
#599 ·
I would buy a contessa26 before a Folkboat, they're basically have the same lines but the contessa is a bit bigger. I have too agree with you that they are some very nice looking boats and they are good sea boats.I'm not sure but I think some folkboat have circumnavigated.The only draw back is the lack of self bailing cockpit... I'm looking for small boats but 25 is too small. My minimum lenth would be 26 ft and my maximum would be 35. I know thats pretty small for some of our members here on sailnet but thats the smallest size that I could get away with. And I think thats how evry body should choose their boat. Why would I buy a 45 footer if I can have a fully equip 32 ft sailboat for half the price of the 45ft?

I hope that those big windows on that Nauticat 441 are strong :)

By the way, if any of you are interested in the folkboat, here is a good book that tells evrything about it. Folkboat Story: From Cult to Classic-The Renaissance of a Legend
I read it my self and it's pretty good .
 
#600 ·
I would buy a contessa26 before a Folkboat....
...
I hope that those big windows on that Nauticat 441 are strong :)
Yes, I was only responding to the theme of "do they make them any longer." As far as I know the Contessa ceased production in 1976-78 in Europe and 1990 in Canada. The Folkboat can still be bought new.

Oh yeah, those Nauti windows are strong - the whole boat is. That could be part if its problem - heavy and cumbersome in sea. Their line of pilothouse yachts is very nice, however - just too damned expensive.

To Sailingdog: My thinking exactly - I have discarded many yacht pretenders because of those stupid open saloons without handhelds. I think, however, the Nauticat photo is partly the deception of wide angle lenses. They feel quite closed-in when aboard.

And of course, as PeterSailer says, Folkboats have circumnavigated, so have Marieholm, and so have Nauticats, though I'm sure none of them were ever "A" rated. Whether you want to? A different question.
 
#603 ·
The only probleme with drop board is when the companion way has a V shape, so the bord only have to be raised 1 inch in order to fall out of their slot, other then that, I think their pretty fail/fool proof and simple as hell.
 
#604 ·
Not true...depends on the design. The companionway on my boat is tapered, but the drop boards need to be raised at least four to six inches in order to come out. However, they need to be pulled out intentionally, since the gasket that prevents water intrusion creates too much friction for them to just come out. Also, they can be locked in place.
 
#605 · (Edited)
Now thats an interesting sailboat...


He cross the Atlantic from Est to West in 1968 in he's 6' sailboat. You can read about he's story in he's book: April Fool

Now thats the same guy in 1993 with a 5'4'' sailboat.




This time he crossed the Atlantic from New Foundland to England. You can read about he's voyage in he's book:The Stormy Voyage of Father's Day

And this guy, Tom McNally... He tried to cross the Atlantic Est to west, but didn't finish. The smallest sailboat to atempt to cross the Atlantic ocean yet.
He's sailboat was 3'11''.....



 
#606 ·
Not true...depends on the design. The companionway on my boat is tapered, but the drop boards need to be raised at least four to six inches in order to come out. However, they need to be pulled out intentionally, since the gasket that prevents water intrusion creates too much friction for them to just come out. Also, they can be locked in place.
I agree with you, it really does depend on the design. I hadn't thought about the gasket friction... But on some boat, there is no gasket, as a example on my father's Cal34, the board drop in a teak frame that is tapered, there is no gasket and the bords are made out of Fiber glass so they're not heavy at all.You only need to raise those about an inch and they come out. And the companion way allmost reach the cockpit sole so that could be a probleme.
 
#608 · (Edited)
Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409 Boat of the year - boat test

Andrews,

I think the Jeanneau 409 is your kind of boat. It is no Deck sallon but the outside view from the saloon through double hull ports is really good. You don't fell like in a basement:D





Even before I have read the jury comments I had already reached the conclusion (by reading some boat tests) that, even if I find the interior gorgeous, this was not my kind of boat, and I will try to tell you why.

So lets see what the jury said about this boat and let me join all opinions, and make a separation between positive and negative comments:

POSITIVE:

This Philippe Briand designed cruiser has many modern design features such as plumb ends, hull chines, an aft cockpit and twin wheels, but it is her accommodation that says more about what really lies at the heart of her design.

Her modest and elegantly fitted teak or oak interior is the first thing to grab your attention. While subtle in colour, the horizontal grain might not be a major feature, but it sets the scene for a boat that challenges the norm. ....

The message is clear, Jeanneau are heading back to their roots with a good looking, solidly built boat that has an eye on the future as well.

... Just in front of each of the wheels lies a Harken 50.2 self tailing winch onto which the mainsheet and genoa sheets are led ensuring the primary controls are close to hand for the helmsman, while also allowing the crew can operate them easily as well.
...At a starting price of €128,740 she is very good value for money for a well built boat that has looks that will last.

The 409 does not only have a very elegant appearance. She also features clever details on and below decks. The option of different headsails is a big plus. And the accomodation is both warm and roomy - something that doesn't always go together well. In fact, even though she is fairly priced she feels rather rich and very comfortable.

The more complete boat of the category, she looks more luxurious and refined than her class. She seems to be back to the Jeanneau best times, when they were realized in medium quality and far from cusins Beneteau.

+ very well designed
+ good deck solutions, many details well resolved
+ functional interior layouts
+ well done interior finishing, quality materials
+ good value for money

Those guys from Jeanneau are very clever : you can hardly beat them in term of value for money. You have lots and lots of space, the boat is rather good under sail and you feel you are on a special boat. Still, it is a mass production boat and the price is very good but you really enjoy living aboard and nothing reminds you of anything « low price ». Well done.

You feel the experience of the yard, when you are sailing the boat: good upwind performance and comfortable trim options, when you have choosen the electric sheetwinshes. Other fine features:
- Variable sailplan: especially the possibility to use three different foresails
- Ambiance under deck: The interior is made with brain and charm; well done woodwork with good working fittings; multifunctional navigation place and salon table.

I you want a boats to give good vibrations, Sun Odyssey 409 is a splendid example. It combines trendright chines, big beam aft with a coachroof ending in "shoulders". If EYOTY was a beautycontest, 409 would have won it too.
Besides having Philippe Briand onboard again, Jeannau has included some new neat features for relaxed sailing, like selftacking jib, low integrated jibtrack on the coachroof, sheets led under a deckcover to electric winches in the cockpit, This demonstrates fresh thinking.
....
Inside Sun Odyssey 409 collects even more points with inviting space, clever layout with one or two aftcabins and toilets, and a genious charttable doubling as bar.

Finishwise the 409 feels de luxe, with leatherhandles, leathercovered charttable, rounded fronts.

Under sail the boat balances a family´s needs, enough sailarea for good speed in light air and solid ruddergrip with lots of control in high winds. Even more familyplus is proper ballastratio for comfortable ride when wind picks up.

Overall Sun Odyssey 409 represents a new level on family cruising in design, sailing, inside volume, finish and value for money.

Better by design: Jeanneau have managed to make an affordable family cruiser witch looks luxurious, but not on the price tag. ...

Jeanneau has the skill to keep things simple and functional. The 409 feels like a bigger boat especially down below.
...And as opposed to the Xc where you get a lot of boat for a lot of money the Jeanneau gives just a lot of boat for the money.

NEGATIVE:

Where the layout struggles a little is in the friction of the sheet systems and in winches that are a bit underpowered fro the task.

A bit stiff on the helm, maybe. And with a bit too much friction in the rope arrangement that leads all aft.

- not fast or funny under sail, heavy at the helm.

You could argue that it feels a bit heavy and numb on the wheel but never the less I'm quite certain that Jeanneau targets their audience close to spot on.

No, I have no doubt that this is a great boat and that many sailors would not find the negative points that were refereed. Fact is that not all of the Juries refereed those negative points, but it is also true that several had found them.

Probably you would be the kind of sailor that would find boat's sailing performance perfect, but I know that I would find all the negative points that some testers have found and that those are more important for me than the outstanding boat interior.

I know that because I intentionally chartered last year a boat that has been considered (by the same testers) as a must in what regards sailing potential among cruiser boats, the Dufour 425 and I found it a very good cruising boat, but "numb" at the wheel and not particularly fast or exiting to sail. I don't want a boat like that...and I am sure, for the same reasons, that the Jeanneau 409 is not the boat for me, even if it will be the perfect boat for many sailors.

Neustart mit der Sun Odyssey 409 - YACHT: YACHT tv

Regards

Paulo
 
#610 ·
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top