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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Used boat budget and "investment" question
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Thread: Used boat budget and "investment" question Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-16-2011 01:35 AM
benajah
Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSuperiorGeezer View Post
One final thought from The Voyager’s Handbook by Beth Leonard (574 pages on 8X11 inch paper, rather fine print, with a lot of sensible info) “But infants turn into toddlers quickly, and toddlers are not as well suited to life aboard. Toddlers are too young to understand why they can’t play with the gimbaled stove and too old to say where you put them. Their mobility is astonishing, their curiosity unquenchable. To keep toddlers safe, you must child proof an area of your boat and never leave them unattended on deck…Pre school-age children are more flexible and often adapt more quickly than older children. They can be taught to swim and understand the word no!” So, here is another reason to take your time on buying and repairing the sailboat, get the baby past the terrable twos before sailing. Beth Leonard also has a lot of info on the expenses of owning a sailboat that's carefully thoughout.
I certainly appreciate your input. My daughter seems to take after me, I can barely keep her safe in our own home, the kid is so precocious. We have had her out on the water, but it seems that 3 hours is about her limit before the confines of a cabin and cockpit start to get to her.
We live on the SF Bay where luckily we can take off for a few hours on the water on a sat morning and when it comes to buying a boat, I have started to come to the conclusion I would be more looking to a pretty small boat, something easy to cast off in and tool around the bay, maybe even a pocket cruiser, saving any coastal cruising for chartering a bigger boat, and saving longer voyages for a couple of years down the road.
04-08-2011 10:09 AM
LakeSuperiorGeezer
Safety & Sailboats

Quote:
Originally Posted by benajah View Post
This is the OP. I certainly appreciate your advice, but I have to disagree. I am asking about the current market in sailboats, and while I don't know much about them, I grew up working on commercial fishing boats off the coast of southern NC, with a whole lot of shrimpers, and charter boats and there were a lot of boats that went down because they were 40, 50 years old, had major failings that went unseen, cracked ribs for instance. Hull failures because nobody saw the problem for 30 yrs then tried to put the boat through the wrong storm.
Good life jackets don't help there, and that is the question I am asking mainly, can I get a good hull, I have a 1 year old daughter. I want a safe hull and rigging.
Many of the old fiberglass boats 30 to 50 years old have hulls that are stronger than the new ones and have designs that are sea worthy, more so than many of the new boats that are designed for lots of space below with a nice interior and sleek look, but would be a challenge in a hurricane. Lin and Larry Pardey have written a book, Storm Tactics Handbook, where they describe hurricanes they have experienced in a sailboat the size you are interested and had a rather easy time of it. They did not have much in the way of safety gear that I could tell, but they spent their life with sailboats and made a living at it writing, doing maintenance for others, and delivery work. What I find interesting about their books is the thought and research they put into safety. If all boaters were as careful as they, the Coast Guard would have a smaller budget. You should spend a year reading about sailboats, doing research online, talking to the secretary of boat owner associations you are interested in. Join yacht clubs and talk, offer to crew on sailboats you like, take classes, look at sailboats. Part of the fun is in the process.

Don Casey, the author of This Old Boat, has written a number of books on sailboat repairs. You should get a copy of Inspecting the Aging Sailboat at $14.95 list, or else get three books in one, his Complete Illustrated Sailboat Maintenance Manual: Including Inspecting the Aging Sailboat, Sailboat Hull and Deck Repair, Sailboat Refinishing... List Price: $59.95. Among other things, hull and rigging inspection with an eye for safety are there in his books. For the amount of money you intend to spend, do your own inspection and winnow out the misfits before you hire a surveyor that’s going to cost you some money.

I am sure there are 50 year old fishing boats that are properly maintained and operated in a safe and thoughtful manner that you would have crewed on without hesitation, and much newer fishing boats you would want nothing to do with. Same goes for sailboats.

One final thought from The Voyager’s Handbook by Beth Leonard (574 pages on 8X11 inch paper, rather fine print, with a lot of sensible info) “But infants turn into toddlers quickly, and toddlers are not as well suited to life aboard. Toddlers are too young to understand why they can’t play with the gimbaled stove and too old to say where you put them. Their mobility is astonishing, their curiosity unquenchable. To keep toddlers safe, you must child proof an area of your boat and never leave them unattended on deck…Pre school-age children are more flexible and often adapt more quickly than older children. They can be taught to swim and understand the word no!” So, here is another reason to take your time on buying and repairing the sailboat, get the baby past the terrable twos before sailing. Beth Leonard also has a lot of info on the expenses of owning a sailboat that's carefully thoughout.
04-07-2011 12:46 AM
mitiempo There are a lot of boats out there that are suspect for anything but daysailing, those that have their original standing rigging and are 20, 30, or more years old.
It deserves professional inspection by a good rigger. Most surveyors aren't experts on the rig (or the engine for that matter).
04-06-2011 11:11 PM
aaronwindward
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
To do what you suggest is asking for trouble. You could go sailing and have the rig come down and injure or kill someone if it is in disrepair, or have an engine fire, fuel fire, electrical fire, etc. There are lots of ways to end up dead (like sinking in the Pacific). Wise buyers choose boats that are reasonably well looked after, and if not know how to fix whatever is wrong.
I agree with the latter bit! When it comes to safety, you should bring your full faculties to bear. You need a plan to make sure that whatever happens, the risks will be acceptable to you.

But I think buyers will find that the market is just brimming with boats at all price levels that are perfectly safe. In my case, the fact the boat was purchased unpowered and has a substantially simple electrical system mitigated much of the risk. A professional survey two month prior gave us at least a basic confidence in the standing rigging.

Money doesn't buy safety.

Obviously a boat with certain kinds of problems is just going to be no good. But I think the lions share of safety comes from using the right kind of safety equipment, which is relatively cheap, and good seamanship. Rig failure and sinking are risks even on the best yacht; safety comes from being prepared, and having a plan that will work when these things happen.

So I stand by my advice that the best thing to do is just to get a boat and get some nautical miles under your keel--while still keeping all of your wits about you.

(Of course, I am truly a beginner, so if I end up sinking in the Pacific and having my mast-crunched, hypothermic body eaten by sharks, a good round of we-told-you-so may be in order. Other beginners should take this into account before listening to my advice, or anyone else's.)
04-06-2011 08:49 AM
LakeSuperiorGeezer
Quote:
Originally Posted by aaronwindward View Post
So my advice, which probably contradicts a lot of people on here, for the inexperienced sailor, is to just buy something inexpensive that seems basically acceptable, and get sailing as fast as you can. Don't worry too much about making mistakes. (But if it's expensive, get a survey!)
Well, if it were just myself, I would do what you did. The potential boat owner wanted a boat he could possibly make some money on so I said start with really upscale that needed cosmetic work. I would pull the chain plates to have a look and carefully inspect the standing rigging on any boat more than 15 years old. I would also look at any stainless steel keel bolts and replace with silicon bronze on any bolts I pulled.

Also, here is a quote from the following thread about an Ericson 27: http://www.sailnet.com/forums/newrep...reply&p=717122
"But if "great sailing" means an ability to carry on in pretty rough weather at a reasonable pace, we think you proved that with your boat. So did Vito Bialla in the first Singlehanded Farallones Race, when he sailed his Ericson 27 over most of the course in 45 knots and more of wind, a race in which a number of boats were dismasted and at least one multihull was flipped. We had a small interest in an Ericson as our first boat, and thought it looked nice, sailed reasonably well, and had quite a bit of interior space"
04-06-2011 02:15 AM
KeelHaulin To do what you suggest is asking for trouble. You could go sailing and have the rig come down and injure or kill someone if it is in disrepair, or have an engine fire, fuel fire, electrical fire, etc. There are lots of ways to end up dead (like sinking in the Pacific). Wise buyers choose boats that are reasonably well looked after, and if not know how to fix whatever is wrong.
04-06-2011 02:00 AM
aaronwindward A lot of people are really into boat shopping, but I'm not much into any kind of shopping, nautical or otherwise. The nice thing about buying a relatively cheap boat, like I did, is that the penalty is small if things don't work out. Even if I can't sell it and the whole thing just sinks in the Pacific, it's really not that much money.

Rather than spending a lot of time following people's extensive and expensive suggestions for joining clubs, making friends, going to shows, leading on buyers, I implemented a brief but wideband buying processing, and essentially just bought a boat. I was sailing within a month of seriously having the notion.

I have no regrets. If after a year, I realize sailing isn't going to be part of my life (doubtful), merely having a floating refuge away from home is valuable in-and-of itself. If I decide to take things more seriously, I am infinitely more equipped for a high-dollar buying process. You see all of these people on SailNet asking for other people to tell them what sort of boat they want. Once you've owned a boat for a while, you know for yourself.

So my advice, which probably contradicts a lot of people on here, for the inexperienced sailor, is to just buy something inexpensive that seems basically acceptable, and get sailing as fast as you can. Don't worry too much about making mistakes. (But if it's expensive, get a survey!)
04-05-2011 08:28 PM
benajah
Quote:
Originally Posted by LakeSuperiorGeezer View Post
You are so lucky she wants a boat. Now you want to keep her onboard so really listen to what she wants. Go shopping with her, have her take notes of what she likes and dislikes and carefully work it into the type of boat the two of you want to buy.

Are you experienced sailors? ff.
That's where I got lucky. She is the experienced sailor, been doing it her whole life. I'm pretty new to sailing. experienced under engine, but new to sailing. I never had any interest in it until She got me into it.
04-05-2011 06:46 PM
LakeSuperiorGeezer
Quote:
Originally Posted by KeelHaulin View Post
Cal Sailing Club (but I don't know if CSC goes out into the central bay)
It's been decades, but Cal Sailing Club got me started. It's cheap and I found the instruction to be good, mostly University of California students. I don't know if they still have them, but there were a few keelboats that could be taken into the Bay. Their main boats for instruction were centerboard. Be prepared to get wet though and have proper gear for that. Cal Sailing is located in the Berkeley Marina, turn left at the stop sign then curve around to the right and then look for the second building on the left beyond the parking lot if they still have the same location. If not, ask at the harbor master’s office across the street on the right.

If you want to spend the money on ASA courses, I hear these folks are good: Modern Sailing School & Club - San Francisco Bay Sailing Lessons, Charters and Rentals, Adventure Sailing
04-05-2011 03:09 PM
arf145 I agree with IslanderGuy and others who suggest looking at a lot of boats. I would start now, and as IG said, just be honest about being early in the process. I think looking while you are not quite "ready" might be perfect--without the push to buy right away you can hone your looking skills and increase your knowledge of what's out there and what you both like.
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