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How old is too old II: Design

8K views 21 replies 16 participants last post by  CaptainForce 
#1 ·
There's another thread around that I was just reading, a discussion on how old you can reasonably shop for plastic boats, and how long they'll hold up. The conclusions seem to be that the actual age doesn't matter much when compared to the upkeep and condition of the boat over it's life. Fair enough, that makes sense.

Now disregarding maintenance and condition, but considering design, construction techniques and materials instead, how old is too old? I'm sure there have been breakthroughs in hull and rig design - when did they work their way into recreational sailboat plans? Fibreglass got weaker in the 70s because of the materials used during the oil crisis - did it ever rebound? Around what year did it start to get weaker?

An example of what I'm looking for is the spade rudder - apparently it used to be somewhat prone to falling off - is it still? I'm sure there are many other, more important points as well.
 
#2 · (Edited)
I think 'weak' fiberglass boats have more to do with poor practices, under-engineering and a too-hurried adoption of new techniques than age itself.

Good cored construction techniques result in a stiffer, lighter, stronger structure. Poorly executed it can be a nightmare.

The key is in finding a boat that was well built in the first place (at whatever level of technique was 'solid' at the time, that was maintained and protected from moisture intrusion (including those boats of the blister prone era that have been treated/repaired/barrier coated) from deck leaks, port leaks etc etc.

As for spade rudders, while there have been failures I'd say today the majority of boats designs use spade rudders that are adequately engineered and they'll stand up well until something like a grounding or collision occurs. There are certainly performance and manoeuvrability advantages to them. I don't think they ever really 'tended to fall off'. To a degree these fall into the same argument camps as "full vs fin", "heavy vs light" where everyone has a point of view of their own.
 
#4 ·
I think part of the mis-understanding on this is that 'plastic' boats are not strictly plastic. They are a composite of glass cloth that is held together with plastic; and the glass carries the load that is placed on it. These materials are highly durable and won't easily degrade. The problem with most older boats come from degradation of the boat's systems; or due to damage sustained by water getting into the coring of a balsa or foam cored hull.

The marconi sloop rig and the fiberglass hull were the biggest improvements to recreational sailboats. There really is no boat that is 'too old' in terms of this. Red Jacket, the first balsa cored sailboat hull (made by C&C) is still sailing. A well made balsa core hull is also OK so long as it has not been abused by ramming it into a dock, etc.

It usually comes down to the type of boat you want, the type of boat you 'need' (will it suit your sailing purposes), and your price range.
 
#5 ·
Please bear in mind that I already recognize that a boat's life and upkeep is far more important that it's design in determining how sound it is now. I'm trying to dig past that and find out if how it was built also has an effect.

What I'm hearing then is that it doesn't matter so much which techniques were used, but rather that the builders were good at what technique they were using. Is there any way for me to tell that? I've already heard that build quality of a given hull from a given company can vary dramatically between years, but I've not found anywhere that can give me a heads up on which years were worse. Do I just accept that I might get shanked? (I'll have the boat surveyed, of course, but I'd rather not have to survey every boat I examine to rule it 'in' or 'out' of contention).

I also wasn't intending to veer off into the spade rudder debate - I don't have the experience to offer an opinion. Them being perfectly seaworthy, however, is exactly the sort of information I'm looking for. Also perfect are KeelHaulin's comments regarding the sloop rig (although I suspect I won't find a boat for sale from before the sloop was invented :) )
 
#6 ·
After you start looking at boats you will start to become pretty good at seeing the ones not worth having surveyed





I would be pretty sure anybody can see boats with motors in this condition are gonna go downhill as you get deeper into them and you will learn which nook and crannies to find other obvious issues

As for myself i went with the Cal 29 because i prefere its layout compared to many new boats that have way to much stuff cramed into a < 30' boat and at 4'5" draft it will still sail as well as anything with that draft
 
#7 ·
.................. Fibreglass got weaker in the 70s because of the materials used during the oil crisis - did it ever rebound? Around what year did it start to get weaker?........................
Actually, fiberglass did not get weaker. What happened at the close of 1973 and early 1974 was an increase in the cost of fiberglass resins by about 500% due to the oil embargo. The response of manufacturers that were selling to the lower cost market was to cut back on hardware, trim, amenities and all possible to stay competitive,- many failed. This first affected the boats manufactured in 1974 and they gradually recovered by the later seventies. Take care and joy, Aythya crew
 
#9 ·
To my knowledge, many manufacturers decreased the resin/glass ratio somewhat during the oil crisis. This is not necessarily bad since they actually came closer to the optimum ratio (Too much resin is bad too). More of a problem is that the barrier coat quality suffered as evidenced by the blistering problems. I am sure different manufacturers reacted to the oil embargo differently and one universal conclusion about the boat hull quality of that era can't really be drawn.

When buying an older boat, you will check for blistering, delamination, core moisture (if cored) etc... If it is fine, it will continue to be so for a long time. How long will the fiberglass material itself be structurally sound? I don't think anybody has an accurate answer. 40-50 year old FG boats are still going strong. So I wouldn't be too concerned about that.
 
#8 ·
I think the construction years you are referring to are around '71 - '73 where blisters became fairly common in some makes. Again, it comes down to a case by case inspection as this is a generalization and not every builder nor every hull of a given type had this problem.

Design issues.
Roller reefing booms. This was popular with builders at one time and my boat from 1967 has this 'feature'. We never use it as intended and reef using slab or jiffy reefing like more modern boats do. It is more of a curiousity then of practical use.
Gasoline engines. There are probably (tens of) thousands of boats out there still being propelled by Atomic 4's or Palmer engines. Diesels became the auxiliary engine of choice with builders in the 70's. The 43 year old Atomic 4 engine in my boat is still running quite well given enough TLC. For many people having a gasoline engine in a boat would be a non-starter (pun intended). I happen to like the simplicity of the A4 and have learned a lot about engines as a result. I also don't have the money to throw at a Beta re-power right now.
Chain plates. Some chain plates (like ours) were glassed into knee walls when they were built way back when. This was the technique they used and it can hold up for a long time BUT once stainless steel gets wet and is deprived of oxygen it will begin to corrode. A better design is where the actual chain plate is not enclosed in a fiberglass coffin.
Teak toe rails. Yup, my boat has 'em too. They can look beautiful but they are a maintenance nightmare and a poor choice for a toe or rub rail, IMHO.

Keep in mind that a lot of regulations have come into existence SINCE my boat was built. HIN #'s were not required prior to '72 or '73. I am not even sure when the ABYC was created but I don't think it existed back in 1967. The ABYC is also constantly updating their 'best practices' list so a 5 year old boat may not meet all current ABYC standards either.

All boats are compromises in one way or another.
 
#10 ·
I think one of the best ways to determine if a boat is suitable is to look at the boat; take some photos (of everything that looks good AND bad); then post some photos here and ask some questions about it. If you want to do some initial narrowing down of a particular boat or several boats put up a post asking for some info/comparisons. While some posts will point you in different directions (because those people are critics of that style or type of boat); others will help you determine if the boat you are looking at is suitable or if it is a good hull design, etc. There are just too many good boats (and bad) for each era to say "none from a certain period of time are good boats".

Let us know what boat you are considering for survey and post some photos if you can.

IIRC one of the reasons for boats with blistering problems in the 70's was the use of a type of vinylester that had a fire retardant in it. This resin was more reactive with salt water and resulted in blistered hulls. The blistering problem can be fixed/stopped; but requires a stripping of the outer layers of the hull and re-clothing/glassing with an epoxy resin to seal the inner layers of the hull.

Boats with strand-mat blistering are also common; but this is a non-structural form of blistering that is mostly cosmetic. It can also be fixed by grinding out blisters and barrier coating. Please understand that these problems were common throughout the industry because the skin layers of most hulls are stranded mat fiberglass which has high porosity and will allow water to permeate through. It's a problem; but it is not a death sentence for a hull if it is blistered.
 
#11 ·
Gelcoat blistering is common on many boats, rarely going past the layer of mat just inside the gelcoat.

Vinylester wasn't used in the 70's as far as I know. The company with the fire retardant resin additive was Uniflite, who also built the Valiant. The problems started when they had to change the fire retardant additive due to the lack of availability of the one they had used originally. This type of blistering was unique in that it concerned the entire hull structure, not just the mat/gelcoat exterior. I don't think any company except Uniflite used fire retardant additives, and certainly wouldn't have after Uniflite's well known problems. The original reason for its use was the US government contract for 31' gunboats for Vietnam, which required it.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Right. Most hulls with a resin/hardener system are polyester; not epoxy. Sorry, I mis-stated that in the last post. I should have written polyester, not vinylester. I had heard of the blister hulls that happened to the Valiant production; but was not sure if it was only limited to their boats or if it was more widespread.

Here is a quote from masepoxies website:
To understand the repairing of blisters, we should first understand the cause. Polyester Resin is used in the production of 90% of the boats now afloat and is not waterproof.
 
#13 ·
I think it is very difficult to generalise about design / build construction based on age. There are some very good designs available from every decade, unfortunately there are also crap designs / construction in every decade as well. Even with the same design I would prefer a boat that was laid up continuously (and so the resins in each layer bonded correctly) rather than a yacht that was half finished over a long weekend. However this would be bloody difficult to determine.

When I purchased my current boat all the one's I was looking at were 25-30 years old and some of them were asking 20% less than other boats. One thing I used was my nose, ie most of the cheaper boats had a musty smell about them that warned me that water had intruded into the wrong areas. You could spend thousands of $ fixing these issues, plus it is an indication that the sellers probably let other maintenance issues be forgotten.

JC unfortunately I do not believe there is much you can do to determine whether a boat was well constructed, or poorly constructed 20 / 30 / 40 years ago, apart from researching the reputation of the builder and seeking comments from a knowledgable surveyor. Once you get past 20 years prior maintenance is much more of an issue, ie a well designed / constructed bulkhead will be useless if water intrusion has rotted out the wood.

Ilenart
 
#14 ·
design, construction techniques and materials instead, how old is too old? I'm sure there have been breakthroughs in hull and rig design - .
I had to drive a 1969 Mustang for a job for 3 weeks (including some 4 wheel drifts in gravel and some fun acceleration stuff!!! :)). Every dude in the place was envious and every guy on the street stared. But was the car good to drive? NO!!! A modern Korean cheep pile of junk is FAR better to drive, and far more enjoyable for the passengers!

You are absolutely so correct that there have been breakthroughs. I think in every fascet of boats and their equipment.

If a boat was designed in 1970 or 1980 it will be a poor boat compared to the hated new production boats flying off the line with ultra modern designs, production engineering and the latest electronics, engines, even to the sinks and water mixing taps.

They are now using carbon fibre as chain plates!! The strongest part of the boat now made of 'plastic'!!!

Mark
 
#15 ·
I disagree. Yes, construction has advanced, mostly at the top of the market. Epoxy pre-pregs and exotic cores can produce a better boat but not really in the more affordable categories. Hardware like winches have improved a bit but there is nothing wrong with a good self-tailing Barient from 30 years ago. Sinks haven't changed much at all.:) Most new boats still have stainless chainplates.

A boat well built in the 70's that has been maintained and upgraded as necessary and maybe re-powered has a great deal to offer.
 

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#20 ·
there is nothing wrong with a good self-tailing Barient from 30 years ago.
I'll take old S/S Barients over new Harkens or Lewmars any day. I've had lots of them and they are some of the best made and most reliable machinery of any kind that I've ever had. It was a black day when Barient closed up shop.

Modern boats are better in most ways except the "row away" factor but old boats are still perfectly good if they have been maintained. Worst case, you can just sit on the dock and look at them and get a lot of pleasure. Can't do that with most of the new ones IMHO. :)
 
#16 ·
Sparkman and Stephens Loki yawl sailboat for sale

You are going to find some old boats that will sail circles around most new boats. They were built to sail though, and not be entertainment platforms. It just depends on what you are looking for in a sailboat........i2f
 
#17 ·
I'd be hesitant to purchase a vintage boat with a cored hull. Simply too many unknowns and too many risks.


I'd also agree with the post about chainplates and expand the comment into all deck hardware.


A sold FRP hull with a dry balsa deck will last eternity with minimum attention.


A wet cored FRP hull with a soggy balsa deck will be a eternal nightmare.
 
#19 ·
Shaka:
That's my design. They are strong boats and well built. They have a bit more weather helm than I would prefer but they are very stiff and well liked by their owners. Nice looking too.

Not sure about cutting the asking price by %50.
As my secretary once informed me, "Bob, you have retail writen all over you."

Maybe start with a 75.349% offer.

And you can call me any time you like.
First one's free.
 

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#21 ·
I think there are two reasons why people buy old boats: price or aesthetics. There is no question that an older, well-maintained boat is the cheapest way to get out on the water. One can overlook a boat's shortcomings when the price is low. No doubt, design has come a long way since the days of Carl Alberg, but those old Albergs are an affordable way to get out sailing. Just don't expect performance. Just look at how many of these old "plastic classics" are out there still cruising. The other reason to buy an older boat is purely emotional. A Bermuda 40 or a Baba is a lovely boat in the eyes of many people and they are willing to accept less performance (and perhaps more maintenance) for the pleasure of owning something beautiful, regardless of the cost of ownership. Another thing to consider is that most of the inherent problems with old boats are known now (Cal mast step support, Formosa steel and tanks etc.) so one can buy with one's eyes wide open.
 
#22 ·
.................... Another thing to consider is that most of the inherent problems with old boats are known now (Cal mast step support, Formosa steel and tanks etc.) so one can buy with one's eyes wide open.
This is a very insightful thought! On the boat that I've cruised for 28 years I've learned the faults and completed the repairs and refits. Much is to be said for the history of the boat and what was done to solve the known problems.
 
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