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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > A blue water sailer that can go in light winds
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Thread: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-07-2012 04:26 PM
GBurton
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'll stick with the modern, fast boat that's got a spacious, comfy interior. And I'll save some warm beer for you full-keelers at the finish.

That's just how I roll.

(Oh yeah, we just won our class and were 3rd overall a few weeks ago in an amply-keeled Pearson 365 ketch...among a fleet including J-Boats, Benes, and even a MacG 65. But I still want a pimpin' fat-assed sled.)
Aaahh ... so its about the image hahaha

Did you hand warm beer to the finkeelers when they came in?
06-06-2012 01:27 PM
puddinlegs
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

souljour, Not Jeff's 11.6, but I've sail on a Farr 1220. I can say unequivocally that it's a boat I wouldn't hesitate to set out on for a world cruise.
06-06-2012 11:27 AM
smackdaddy
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

I'll stick with the modern, fast boat that's got a spacious, comfy interior. And I'll save some warm beer for you full-keelers at the finish.

That's just how I roll.

(Oh yeah, we just won our class and were 3rd overall a few weeks ago in an amply-keeled Pearson 365 ketch...among a fleet including J-Boats, Benes, and even a MacG 65. But I still want a pimpin' fat-assed sled.)
06-06-2012 10:21 AM
souljour2000
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by RXBOT View Post
You know that Luders hull speed is about 6.5 knots because she has about 9 feet of overhangs so about 24 feet at waterline. Jeffs Farr 38 is bigger,lighter, larger sail area and longer on the waterline. His hullspeed is about 7.5 knots. So if they both did hull speed for 10 hours the Luders is only 10 nautical miles back or 24 for a full 24 hour sail.
Let's go way back,back,back....into the 4th or 5th page of this thread for a minute...where we were comparing the Luders 33 of the OP to jeff's farr 38....yes, the farr does 7.5 hullspeed theoretical while the Luders is chugging along at substantially less....etc.etc, Question for debate: The Luders is showing a motion comfort rating of 34+...twice that of the farr 38 that comes in around 17 and change...what does this mean minus all the formula variabilities...and then is it a yacht delivery...or a single-hander or cruising couple who is aboard...So many variables. I know there is alot of vagaries in connection to sailprocalc or other sites numbers and they have to be taken with a grain a salt..but TWICE the motion comfort? Sure the farr is way out ahead likely in light air...but...but what? A million other factors or scenarios....weather, crew, experience of crew, area of ocean where sailing...these would seem to affect things way more than the actual boat differences...that we always seem get get hung up on...and then there's that sea comfort rating disparity... between the farr 38 and the Luder 33... a boat 5 feet shorter and a ton heavier...what to think...the only thing certain is that in light air..anywhere..you want to be on the Farr....but there's a million other considerations when buying a boat..that the original question by OP cannot be answered...ever..at least in this thread...so instead the thread becomes another "old boas are better vs. new boats are better" thread....
06-06-2012 02:07 AM
Oregonian
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Puddinglegs, I do not like to correct someone but I am going for accuracy here as many errors have already been made on this thread and this forum. Your opinion DOES matter to me. I appreciate your posting and your many responses to this forum.
My earlier post stated BOAT FOR BOAT performance during the light airs of that event. I do not concern myself with corrected performance. The documented tracks as shown on the internet and posted by the race committee clearly show the Westsail-32 out running all the boats mentioned (and others) during the most extreme light winds of the race.
The biggest regret of the race was when the Olson 34 passed, within sight, on the very last day. The Bozo at the helm of the Westsail allowed a nasty gybe to occur while talking to his wife on the computer. Yes, the wife was to blame. The last 600 miles were sailed with a big reef and a broken boom. The Olson 34 beat the Westsail 32 to Hawaii by one hour 12 minutes - after 17 days.
Another correction of an error made on this thread: regarding “that widely quoted Pacific race” This is the FACT; Yes the W-32 was the last boat to finish in the PHRF class. It was NOT the last boat to finish the race as there was an IOR class also. The last boat to finish that race was a C&C31. If a person is not comfortable naming a boat, as I am not, then it may simply be said that the 31’ fin keel boat was slower than the 32’ full keel boat in what was in fact a “light wind” year. (It was not light wind as we normally define it as it was actually over 8k most of the time)
Souljour2000. Thanks for that. Let me know if you’re ever in the area.
06-05-2012 11:44 PM
souljour2000
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oregonian View Post
This thread starts out asking about “Blue Water” boats in “Light airs“. That usually implies certain requirements. The thread ended showing a nice video of a race boat in heavy air. I see no dinghy on that boat or an anchor. It also probably does not have 70 gallons of water aboard nor 3000#s of stuff. But, thanks anyway Paulo.
This thread also took the common route from good advice to some ridiculously poor information. Thanks to RichH and a few others we heard the truth. The poor information, as usual, comes from the theorist.
Once again the Westsail 32 was mentioned as a boat to stay away from. Jeff H says “the Westsail 32 is useless as a sailboat in winds under 8k”. Many of you jumped in to agree. GeorgeB being just one. The “Proof” is the wetted surface and the “High drag”. How high is that drag? I don’t believe any of you actually mentioned how many pounds of drag there is in a 32’ full keel vs. a 32’ fin keel when both keels are very smooth.
There are a number of explanations as to why all of you have usually seen W-32s sailing around slowly. The number one reason, by far, is the boat owner. Many boat owners have completely different priorities than you do and their boat performance reflects that. In most cases you attribute that slowness to other aspects of the boat. In my opinion, the wrong aspects. As just one example: if you see a Hans Christian sailing slowly are you thinking about the fixed 3 bladed propeller the boat might be dragging or the 200+ books aboard the boat?
I can respectfully acknowledge that one’s opinions and convictions are determined by their own experiences as are ones world views; thus the differences in people are far greater than in those between boats.
How slow is a W-32 in light winds? The following event was well documented and tracked by hundreds, if not thousands, of people. Days 4 through 7 (or so) of the 2010 SHTP (single handed trans pac) were in extremely light winds. Head winds and following winds occurred, often less than 4k. It was during this time that the W-32 made its biggest gains against all the other boats. Valiant 40, Olson 34, Islander 36, Martin 32, Express 27, just to name a few. The W-32 had all of the theoretical strikes against it yet it still was able to sail equally, Boat for Boat, to any of the other boats (that had propellers in the water). There is a real world explanation, but make up your own conclusions if you will. You cannot get the proper explanation from a theorist. The only real truth is that boats like a W-32 are quite a bit better sail boats can our experts want you to believe. I must question their agenda. Our experts, Paulo included, grossly exaggerate the benefits of the modern design.
The accompanying photos show a W-32 off the coast of Washington. The TRUE wind is approximately 3.1k. Does anyone here really believe that a Farr 38, Elan, or Figaro 35 would be able to do a lot better? Do you think that your boat could do a lot better? And, don’t forget to put that dinghy and the anchors, and 70 gallons of water, and the 3000#s of stuff aboard when you make that test.
Quote: Jeff H; “Calling a spade a spade is not denigrating anyone’s boat. Its just simple honesty”
Thanks for listening



I really like what you said about differences in people being greater than differences in types of boats...I'm still working on the 200+ books aboard the ship's library but now that i got a bigger boat just give me some time...200 is a bit more than I'd hope to have..maybe would settle for four score and seven...lol..someday or around that number... probably only have about a dozen books on sailing/boating in my boat right now...but I definitely will have the 3000 lbs of gear after I get the stuff out of the laundry room and onto the boat soon...and I do got the 70 gal water tank and am working on installing a good side-loading washer and dryer set maybe...
btw....good post and the thread certainly needed to be brought back to topic...score +1 one for oregonian!
06-05-2012 11:07 PM
GBurton
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by puddinlegs View Post
Not that I have any dog in this thread, but Oregonian, you know well that ISAF race rules (and PIYA) require two anchors and ground tackle appropriate to the length and displacement of the boat. There's no need to tell us what a race boat 'doesn't' have when in fact it's required. That includes both fuel and water for the journey. Hot showers? A dishwasher? No. I'm glad you love your Westsail and that you sail it well, but yes, I do believe many boats will do better in light air including my own. You corrected out if I remember, which means you sailed very well for your rating. You didn't sail faster boat for boat. But do correct me if I'm wrong. No worries though. My opinion isn't all that important, and congrats!
What boat do you have puddinglegs?
06-05-2012 10:24 PM
puddinlegs
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Not that I have any dog in this thread, but Oregonian, you know well that ISAF race rules (and PIYA) require two anchors and ground tackle appropriate to the length and displacement of the boat. There's no need to tell us what a race boat 'doesn't' have when in fact it's required. That includes both fuel and water for the journey. Hot showers? A dishwasher? No. I'm glad you love your Westsail and that you sail it well, but yes, I do believe many boats will do better in light air including my own. You corrected out if I remember, which means you sailed very well for your rating. You didn't sail faster boat for boat. But do correct me if I'm wrong. No worries though. My opinion isn't all that important, and congrats! Honestly, you sail the hell out of your boat. Your results are nothing short of amazing. It's scary to imagine what might happen if you were sailing something lighter and faster.
06-05-2012 09:27 PM
Oregonian
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

This thread starts out asking about “Blue Water” boats in “Light airs“. That usually implies certain requirements. The thread ended showing a nice video of a race boat in heavy air. I see no dinghy on that boat or an anchor. It also probably does not have 70 gallons of water aboard nor 3000#s of stuff. But, thanks anyway Paulo.
This thread also took the common route from good advice to some ridiculously poor information. Thanks to RichH and a few others we heard the truth. The poor information, as usual, comes from the theorist.
Once again the Westsail 32 was mentioned as a boat to stay away from. Jeff H says “the Westsail 32 is useless as a sailboat in winds under 8k”. Many of you jumped in to agree. GeorgeB being just one. The “Proof” is the wetted surface and the “High drag”. How high is that drag? I don’t believe any of you actually mentioned how many pounds of drag there is in a 32’ full keel vs. a 32’ fin keel when both keels are very smooth.
There are a number of explanations as to why all of you have usually seen W-32s sailing around slowly. The number one reason, by far, is the boat owner. Many boat owners have completely different priorities than you do and their boat performance reflects that. In most cases you attribute that slowness to other aspects of the boat. In my opinion, the wrong aspects. As just one example: if you see a Hans Christian sailing slowly are you thinking about the fixed 3 bladed propeller the boat might be dragging or the 200+ books aboard the boat?
I can respectfully acknowledge that one’s opinions and convictions are determined by their own experiences as are ones world views; thus the differences in people are far greater than in those between boats.
How slow is a W-32 in light winds? The following event was well documented and tracked by hundreds, if not thousands, of people. Days 4 through 7 (or so) of the 2010 SHTP (single handed trans pac) were in extremely light winds. Head winds and following winds occurred, often less than 4k. It was during this time that the W-32 made its biggest gains against all the other boats. Valiant 40, Olson 34, Islander 36, Martin 32, Express 27, just to name a few. The W-32 had all of the theoretical strikes against it yet it still was able to sail equally, Boat for Boat, to any of the other boats (that had propellers in the water). There is a real world explanation, but make up your own conclusions if you will. You cannot get the proper explanation from a theorist. The only real truth is that boats like a W-32 are quite a bit better sail boats than our experts want you to believe. I must question their agenda. Our experts, Paulo included, grossly exaggerate the benefits of the modern design.
The accompanying photos show a W-32 off the coast of Washington. The TRUE wind is approximately 3.1k. Does anyone here really believe that a Farr 38, Elan, or Figaro 35 would be able to do a lot better? Do you think that your boat could do a lot better? And, don’t forget to put that dinghy and the anchors, and 70 gallons of water, and the 3000#s of stuff aboard when you make that test.
Quote: Jeff H; “Calling a spade a spade is not denigrating anyone’s boat. Its just simple honesty”
Thanks for listening



04-24-2012 06:34 AM
PCP
Re: A blue water sailer that can go in light winds

Quote:
Originally Posted by therapy23 View Post
It seems that he might have put the spin up just for the photo shoot. Then after the broach he took it down?
Yes I guess that it was that. Obviously sailing the boat on those conditions with a full sail and a big spinnaker is quite mad and no wonder the boat suffers occasional broaches. The thing to retain is that the guy is out there alone and he knows that with a modern boat with good stability recovering from a broach is not a problem. After taking the spinnaker the boat seems rock stable.

Here you have another guy, same boat (Beneteau Figaro II) on even worse conditions. Off course the spinnaker is too much and broaches are too be expected if someone is using it with that kind of wind, especially alone. Even full sail, I mean main and jib with 40 to 50 K winds is crazy. Only a very good solo racer showing off or sailing at 110% trying to win a race would try that stunt.

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