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Why so few new boats under 30ft?

9K views 39 replies 24 participants last post by  asdf38 
#1 ·
Im not in the market for a new boat or anything, but love to browse, and I realized that there really are very few new production boats under 30 ft on the market.
Of course I understand people build what sells, my real question is why isn't there enough demand for small boats to justify production? There are some out there, but among the big, popular names, years ago half of the model line would be small boats.
I'm just curious.
 
#2 ·
Not to get overly political here, but small production boats are typically targeted at the middle class. The middle class (at least in the United States) has taken a huge hit in discretionary income and creditworthiness. Many who would have used their houses as collateral for a loan are now underwater with their mortgages.

Large boats offer a much higher profit margin for the builder, as well as targeting a market segment that the econometric data show are doing much better financially on the average.
 
#3 ·
I can certainly see the reasoning behind that explanation. It is a shame, but probably true.
One theory I had was that the middle class still buys yachts, but there is such a good market in used boats that there is little to motivate one towards a new, small boat.
I was looking at a 200K Benetau a few weeks ago at a boat show, and the whole time I was thinking to myself that there was no way it cost the builder more than 50K to build, but if the market exists that is willing to pay, it makes more sense to build 10, 50K-200K boats a year that you can be pretty sure to sell than it does to make 200, 50K boats that cost you 25K to make when you run the serious risk of an economic change hitting the chance you will sell all of them.
There is something to be said for focused production.
 
#9 ·
I was looking at a 200K Benetau a few weeks ago at a boat show, and the whole time I was thinking to myself that there was no way it cost the builder more than 50K to build, but if the market exists that is willing to pay, it makes more sense to build 10, 50K-200K boats a year
Are you sure abut the cost to build a $200K boat? Personally, every time I try to build something myself on the cheap, I wind up spending about 3 times what I had planned and wind up with something that is not satisfactory. I've never tried to build, nor would I, a boat of this type, but I am amazed at how much we get for our money when we buy today's manufactured products, including, but not limited to boats.

There are boats being manufactured in the size range that you mention. A fair number actually. So what's the problem? Just survey the available ones, step up and buy one. i.e. If there were 2 or 3 times as many manufacturers and models available, what would that gain you?
 
#4 ·
Frankly, at least in the NA market, the under 30' segment has been gone for probably 20 some odd years, ie since the 80's. Other than sport boats or equal. 35-40 seems to be the 25-30 boat from the 60's and 70s as I recall growing up. I know a number of folks now looking at 40-50+ boats. Somebody has money right now, I know it is not me!

Marty
 
#5 · (Edited)
I hear you. We are an upper middle class family doing pretty well all things considered (please don't judge me I lost a leg in Afghanistan as a grunt and got lucky on the job hunt when I got out of the service), and the best we can afford is a fixer upper. Nothing on the new market, power or sail, even a 13 foot Boston whaler with a good outboard would be in our budget, he'll, even a really nice wooden canoe might be a stretch. Granted, our location in the sf bay area puts financial brakes on what you can and can't do but I wonder when I see some of these boats just what those people do for a living.
 
#6 ·
I agree with all the above comments. Like Benajah, I would consider ourselves upper middle class, and am very thankful for that. Given the uncertainty of what things will be like when I'm ready to retire (let me re-phrase that.....when I'm ABLE to retire) that extra money at the end of the month that could go into a "nicer, bigger boat" fund....is getting put away in retirement savings and kid's 529s.

Same thing happened with aircraft manufacturers. Relatively few small plane builders (although more than recently) but the big expensive jets are selling just fine.
 
#7 ·
Yeah I guess the future has begun to look more uncertain and we have all begun to hedge our bets. The ability to pay my daughters tuition (she is 13 months old) to college and make our contributions to the 401k, and mKe sure we get all out taxes paid in an increasingly confusing scheme throw a kink in things.
In the 70s we were the target market for the Cal 2-27s, Catalina 27s, things like that. Now there aren't more than three or four 27s on the market at all.
 
#10 ·
lots of boat

Hey,

There are lots of new boats under 30. But, they are all sport boats and not cruisers or cruiser / racers. The reason for that is you can't really make a decent cruiser under 30.' Sure, there were lots of boats like that built in the 70's and 80s, but they were really only good for 2 people for a few days. There just isn't enough space in small boat for 4 people, gear, etc.

My second boat was a Newport 28'. Great for day sail, OK for 5 people (2 adults, 3 kids) for a night or two, too small for anything longer than that.

Barry
 
#12 ·
It's like every other consumer product- we always want bigger, better, more. Look at cars today- everyone wonders where the small economical car went, like the original Honda Civic. Yet, nobody today would buy a car with no air conditioning, no power windows, no power door locks, no bluetooth, rolling on 12 inch wheels and 60 hp...
like the original Honda Civic.

A generation ago campgrounds were filled with tent trailers, and a family with a fifth wheel trailer was a rarity. Today if your ArrrrVeee doesn't fold out, pop up, slide out and transform into a 2500 sq ft raised ranch, nobody wants it.

The growth of financing has played it's part as well- remember back when you could only crank a car loan out to 48 months? Now with 84 month financing, you can buy twice as much car as you can really afford, and it will last almost as long as the payments. Same thing with boats- if you can run the amortization out to 240 months, then the difference in MONTHLY cost (because that is all people look at, is what fits the monthly budget. Yeah, I know, you're saying, you're different. No, you're not.) between a new 27' boat and a new 36' boat is not that big, so might as well buy the bigger boat, right?
 
#13 · (Edited)
...The growth of financing has played it's part as well- remember back when you could only crank a car loan out to 48 months? Now with 84 month financing, you can buy twice as much car as you can really afford, and it will last almost as long as the payments. Same thing with boats- if you can run the amortization out to 240 months, then the difference in MONTHLY cost (because that is all people look at, is what fits the monthly budget. Yeah, I know, you're saying, you're different. No, you're not)...
Yes I am different. I paid cash for my boats, for my cars (including my original 1977 Honda Civic ;) ), for my children's college, for everything except my house (but I paid 50% down for that). I use credit cards all the time, but I pay them off in full every month, and get a 1%-5% rebate back depending on category of purchase.

Not everybody is the same. It is possible to live without incurring huge debt. You just need to show restraint and save up ahead of time. I admit, it does conflict with the "gotta have it now" mentality of kids today, as promoted by everyone from Oprah to Trump.
 
#16 ·
Yes I am different.

... You just need to save up ahead of time.
And the amount you saved was what you had left over after your monthly obligations- taxes, mortgage, utilities. So you saved, monthly, to buy your car. It was still determined by your monthly budget, you just reversed the order- you made the payments, to yourself, before you bought the car, rather than buying the car and making the payments to the bank after.
So you're not different, just more responsible. ;)
 
#17 ·
And the amount you saved was what you had left over after your monthly obligations- taxes, mortgage, utilities. So you saved, monthly, to buy your car. It was still determined by your monthly budget, you just reversed the order- you made the payments, to yourself, before you bought the car, rather than buying the car and making the payments to the bank after.
So you're not different, just more responsible. ;)
Everything you say is true - and I do think in terms of putting my savings into a "virtual capital fund" for replacing the cars at a later date when they wear out.

But what is different is that I do not think of any of my purchases in terms of a "monthly payment." Car dealers are notorious for trying to negotiate car prices based on monthly payments, because there is so much latitude for playing games with the term of the loan to make the car look cheaper. I refuse to engage in that gimmickry - in fact, I won't even do trade-ins because that's another opportunity for them to screw you by complicating the issues.
 
#14 ·
I wonder what the manufacturing guys would say about the number of new small boats they're selling - Macgregor seems to be churning out the same 4 new 26's a day they have been since forever...

But whatever the manufacturing numbers are, I think that the new boat equation (at least in the cost-sensitive sector of the market) is a victim of its own engineering success. Why would I spend a fortune on a new boat when I can buy a perfectly sound old boat, as upgraded as my budget will allow?
 
#18 · (Edited)
Per Wikipedia...upper middle class is a household in the USA making $100k or there-abouts.



I dont think $100k is *ENOUGH* income to support a boat note. $100k after taxes translates to about $5,647.00 a month in income after 6% 401k and 10% benefits withdrawls living in some sample state like Illinois

Someone making $100k a year probably lives in a $350k house and probably put between 3 and 20% down on a 30 year mortgage, so assuming 15%. That translates to about $2,000 a month in house note.

So now, income is down to $3600 a month. Assume 2 car payments of around $400 a piece and now you're down to $2800 a month. Food for a family of 4-5 is probably around $700. Utiliities probably $400. Insurance probably $200 a month. Of course gas costs money, probably $400 a month nowadays (1 tank a week, 2 cars). Not to mention, kids cost money...they want to wear clothes and get xbxes and all that stuff....poof, there goes another $600-$700 a month.

So...where's the money for a boat payment?

My point is that owning a boat is no longer the purview of the middle class...even the upper middle class has been priced out of boat ownership (even the smaller boats). A Catalina 250 is around $35k. Jumping up from there, A Catalina 309 is $110k now. *BIG* jump in price there...hence all the used boats.
 
#19 ·
Interesting reading, Agree with the economic concepts. Also, when you can aford a boat becomes a matter of economic priorities. Debt control is the key. Use your money don't let it use you. Day sailing is all most of us working guys have time for anyway, maybe a week at the most. NightOwl's data is fascinating. I am better off than I thought. Also consider that 5% of the boomers hold about 50% of the boomer wealth and 50% of the boomers hold 95% of the boomer wealth. Scarry stats when you think about it. Ryan want need to increase the retirement age, it is self inflicted.
 
#22 ·
Overall I think this is true. But an aging population is also in less of a hurry to get there, which (along with gas prices) could eventually help sailboats vs. power boats.
 
#24 ·
1) North American consumer are marketed to believe bigger must be better. It isn't just sailboats, SUVs and McMansions are prime examples

2) As the market for New Sailboats has shrunk from 110,000 units in the late 1970's to 5,000 units in 2010, boatbuilders have had to sell fewer; larger boats to defend their margins.

These 2 factors combine to make the under 30 ft market small. WD Schock builds a charming 25 footer, a perfect weekender suitable for 95% of people's true sailing - the Harbor 25. Yet, new boat buyers are looking to buy a 45 footer, that they will rarely sail because it is too big
 
#25 ·
What about makers such as Catalina, Hunter, Com-Pac and Precision? They have several new model boats under 30ft. Also others such as WW Potter and McGregor, Seaward has a 26 model too. There are others I came across too on the net, don't remember those makers though. Seems like most people would be more likely to buy something like a Catalina 22MkII new then a Catalina 320MkII considering the financial obligation. I also thought not too many people have the time to actually go cruising, not to mention some can't live aboard either. I think now would be a smaller boat market, especially considering the bad economy in the US.
 
#29 ·
What about makers such as Catalina, Hunter, Com-Pac and Precision? They have several new model boats under 30ft. Also others such as WW Potter and McGregor, Seaward has a 26 model too.
True, but if you look at the other production boat manufacturers, most of their offerings start at 34, some at 32.

As someone said previously, I think you have to give credit to the builders. Knowing what their market is the key since no one wants to be sitting with unsold inventory in these economic times and I kind of agree with them.

I'm still looking to purchase my first sailboat but when I started, I thought that a 28 would be fine. After experience on bigger boats, I thought a 30 would be the ideal boat. After more experience, I'm now set on a 32. If I wait any longer to buy a boat, I'll probably wind up on a 36 or even a 42 and will be living on it since I will lose the house in the divorce settlement.....
 
#28 ·
I think sailing tech has something to do with it too. We just upgraded from a 1980 C&C 24 to a 2001 Catalina 310.

The C&C was a "simple" boat that had a hank on jib (changed that after a couple of years) and no traveler, just a main sheet in the middle of the cockpit. The engine was a 4 stroke, 6 hp outboard and tiller steering.

The Catalina has a roller furler, traveler, all lines lead to **** pit and a dutchman system. The engine is an inboard diesel and wheel steering. It also has items like a windless, full head, etc.

We are still getting to know the new boat (only had in the water one weekend so far) but it already seems easier to sail and maneuver then the C&C. (once I figure out the crab walk thing) So in the past people may have bought the smaller boat to learn on and then upgraded. Now it seems like you can just jump to that 30+ boat without needing to learn on the smaller boat.

I do also feel that the American consumer aspect pointed out by others is part of the reason. How many of us are just baffled by the beautiful boats sitting at the dock day after day while we go out sailing in our cheaper boats? It seems like many people just own boats are part of status symbol and not to get out and sail.

We spent virtually every weekend last year on the boat from Friday night to Sunday night. This year we plan to spend from Thursday night to Monday morning. And next year I am hoping to convince the wife to live on the boat all summer. So having items like pressurized water, a micro wave, etc. made sense to us. The TV came with the boat and the only reason we have not removed it yet is because we plan to use it to check the weather.

As I mentioned, we do a lot of sailing with just the two of us and the dog, so the autohelm was more of a safety item to us. As was the radar. I know people have sailed for years without these items but why not increase your safety with them?

The wind instruments were just a plus and I would likely not have installed them if they didn't come with the boat. I didn't even have a wind indicator on the C&C. Same with the windless. But they are nice to have as extras.
 
#35 ·
Smaller production boats

There are definitely a lot of factors in play here. But as has been pointed out, the middle class are in quite a bit of distress right now. There's also a huge pile of used-boat inventory on the market, really inexpensively priced right now. When a family has to choose between paying their mortgage or their moorage, you can bet which one will win. So those boats are dumped well below reasonable, fair value. Who needs to buy a new boat for $150k when you can buy the same boat with some use, for a fraction of the price.

New boat buyers are generally affluent enough not to care about trivial details like depreciation, and those with spare cash these days, generally have lots of it, and thus aren't on the market for a small cruising boat.

So instead of lamenting the lack of new, midsized cruising boats, why not enjoy today's bargain-basement prices. Pick up the used boat you want, for a tiny fraction of what it's really worth.

Btw, regarding the comment that a mid-30's modern production boat looks like it only cost 50K, that comment really needs to be re-thought.

My 1981 boat has a steering wheel that lists for $750 with a $250 suede wrapper on it. My engine new, would cost $12,000. We are now at $13,000 for a motor and a steering wheel. A new Genoa? $3500. A mainsail? $2500.00 Two primary winches? $1500 each. Now we're at $22,000 for two sails, two out of say, 5 winches, a steering wheel with no place to put it, and a motor sitting in a crate with no driveshaft, stuffing box, or propeller. We're missing a hull, through hulls, a binnacle, a fridge, sink, head, cushions, oh heck, the parts list is pretty long.

Get your hands on a wholesale price list for marine parts and then walk around a sailboat. On a sailboat in the 36' range You will find about a quarter of a million dollars worth of high-priced marine gear, all assembled and installed by hand.

In any event, for those who aren't fabulously wealthy, or putting a boat into a charter fleet, I simply can't understand purchasing a new boat.

I ran into a fellow last week who recently purchased a roughly 40' Moody. This boat was clearly a bit older, but it was clear that someone had LAVISHED money on the boat. After chatting a bit, it turns out the new owner had bought the vessel from a very wealthy individual. In 2006 alone, the previous owner had spent $120K on the vessel, and somewhere in the ballpark of half a million dollars in the last 10 years. The boat was purchased for $125K.

The lesson? Skip the new boat that needs $30K in goods from the chandelry; Buy a good used boat from a wealthy person!!! The drawers on my boat came packed with valuable equipment purchased specifically for this vessel. Long live the redistribution of wealth through the purchase of used gear, well below purchase price.
 
#37 ·
Btw, regarding the comment that a mid-30's modern production boat looks like it only cost 50K, that comment really needs to be re-thought.

My 1981 boat has a steering wheel that lists for $750 with a $250 suede wrapper on it. My engine new, would cost $12,000. We are now at $13,000 for a motor and a steering wheel. A new Genoa? $3500. A mainsail? $2500.00 Two primary winches? $1500 each. Now we're at $22,000 for two sails, two out of say, 5 winches, a steering wheel with no place to put it, and a motor sitting in a crate with no driveshaft, stuffing box, or propeller. We're missing a hull, through hulls, a binnacle, a fridge, sink, head, cushions, oh heck, the parts list is pretty long.

Get your hands on a wholesale price list for marine parts and then walk around a sailboat. On a sailboat in the 36' range You will find about a quarter of a million dollars worth of high-priced marine gear, all assembled and installed by hand.
That was a comment that I made, but I think it is slightly misunderstood. What I intended to say was that the production cost was at a $50K level when you look at the actual cost to the individual companies who produced the parts, and the assembly company. Once you start tacking on profit and fee for all the parts companies as they change hands going up the value chain to be assembled is where the price goes up.
Thats a big reason why WalMart can sell stuff so cheap. Few to no middlemen in the supply chain.
 
#38 ·
Some is economics, the manufacturing costs of a smaller boat is much larger percentage of retail price than it is for larger ones. So manufacturers see a larger return on the bigger boats.

Labor costs on a 25 footer will be very close to those of a 30 footer, and there isn't really a huge difference in the equipment required.
 
#40 · (Edited)
I think the problems with the middle class come down to just a couple things. First is that technology has produced so many things for the middle class to spend money on. More things exist to buy today than in the 60's and 70's (big screen tv, cable tv bills, ipads, computers, ipods, etc. etc.). And this is most pronounced in medical care which is probably the biggest change for the middle class since the 60's and 70's. You don't need to get too political about it, the fact is that there are so many (usually beneficial) ways to spend money on healthcare, treatments, cat scans, drugs, etc today than there were 40 years ago it can practically explain the problems of the middle class by itself (to the extent that they exist). That's my take on the politics but I don't think the reason lies here because simple population growth guarantees that there are plenty of people who could buy a small boat.

The next reason is that technology has brought a constant creep in standards (as other people have mentioned) towards bigger and better, which is ok, but with it the ability to enjoy simpler things has left. My fathers parents used to cruise with a family of 7 on a 23 foot boat before settling on a 29 foot boat which they thoroughly enjoyed (and they could have afforded larger). Today a family of 7 that could afford a 29 foot boat would never get it because they'd consider it too small. They'd either forgo the boat altogether or stretch for something much larger because of the creep of standards.

And of course the other simpler reason is (as many others have pointed out) the huge number of quality boats that exist in this size range. Boats simply don't wear out like other goods and are rarely scrapped (and usually only are after decades of use). It's a tough business to be in when you are competing against your own products from 10, 20, 30 years ago.
 
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