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22' capsizes in James River, 10 go in the drink

8K views 38 replies 26 participants last post by  EJO 
#1 ·
Va. authorities rescue 9, seek 1 in boat capsizing - Yahoo! News

Nine rescued, 1 missing after boat capsizes in James River | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com

10 drunks on a midnight excursion in a (Cat?) 22? Motoring around, I'm guessing a few in the cockpit and the rest hanging over the rails, rocking from side to side... but unless it sprung a leak, that must have been some serious rolling to poop her!

And of course some eegit in the comments immediately trots out (L x W) / 15! So this means I can take 19 people aboard my 28.5/10.4 and have a nice trip. :confused:
 
#3 ·
This happens all to often and I am really surprised more people do not die from these things. That rule about capacity is way off and I don't know why people use it, yes the boat may be able to carry x amount of weight if it is properly loaded but when you have ten possibly intoxicated people aboard we all no the weight will all likely be up high and a few waves would probably be enough to topple it over. I do agree it would take a lot to roll the boat but I also have to wonder if the keel was all the way down what kind of boat was it etc. because a few simple mistakes as we have seen time and time again can ruin what was intended to be a nice cruise. I wish them luck but cannot help but agree with that natural selection has a lot to do with it.
 
#6 ·
We had another incident further up river last weekend. A bunch of drunk guys had left a party and proceeded to run their powerboat into a flashing channel marker. Lots of injuries, none life threatening.
If you want to drink, fine. Just make sure at least the one in charge is sober.
 
#9 ·
Probably not.
Kids do stupid sh*t all the time. It is a real shame that this time it resulted in a couple of them dying. My thoughts go out to their families. I feel very fortunate that my own children have so far survived their own stupid learning moments.

The reports say they were all in their twenties, legally adults but really no more than kids still.
 
#10 ·
I wrote the Coast Guard about how LxW div by 15 is a formula for overload, their response was tepid--said it was only on 'alternate' formula for those few boats with no capacity plate, meant for box-type hulls in calm conditions, and operator is ultimately responsible for not overloading, etc etc. All true, but pretty passive attitude.

So I think that stupid formula will be around a while. Outdone in stupidity only by Darwin candidates like these* who i supposed have never heard of the formula and couldn't do long division anyway..


*but when they take children down with them it's cruel *and* stupid
 
#12 ·
Twenty year olds are not kids. Infantilizing them makes the problem worse. Makes me think how capricious and arbitrary it is that I am here and others, better men than me, are not. I have surely transgressed worse than these boaters, but yet, here I am.

My condolences to the families.

Nate
 
#16 ·
Twenty year olds are not kids. Infantilizing them makes the problem worse.
Helicopter parenting. Kids always leave the nest eventually, if you don't let them fall down and get hurt when they're young(and you're there to pick up the pieces), they'll just do it when they "grow up".

I owned my first rifle when I was 15(and could use it unsupervised) and lived on my own when I was 17(parents moved 200 miles away and I stayed to finish my senior year in HS).

Neighbors would probably call child protective services if parents did that today.
 
#13 ·
The formula doesn't even really matter here; when people are drunk and acting stupid, the boat could have a clear maximum capacity of three and they would be piling on. I lost a lot of respect for a friend of mine when they decided it would be a good idea to (drunk) hop on a tiny motorboat with a bunch of other (drunk) people and put around the lake. I can't believe the guy who was steering even made it away from the dock.
 
#14 ·
I just read the whole article and watched the video clip. They said nothing about any of them being drunk or intoxicated. Now it did mention about them going to a party but I and several of my friends used to go to parties even in our early 20s and walk out sober. So good chance at least half of them were not drunk, I doubt they were all plastered. From the light conditions of 5-10knot winds and 1ft swells, they had to do something to capsize the boat. How do you capsize a sailboat in calm conditions? Chances are they were probably cutting up pretty bad, just acting crazy. I bet they decided to "rock the boat". This said, I would never want 10 people onboard my 22ft. The most people I ever had onboard mine was 5 including me. Mine is meant to sleep 4 which I think most 22ft boats can. So at most it should be no more then 8 people total, 4 people in cockpit and 4 in cabin but it could get very crowed! More practical would be 4-6 people total onboard. Almost all the time I have 1 to 3 people on mine and that 1 is always ME ;) On capacity, how about 1 person for every 5ft of boat? Like an aquarium, 1 inch of fish per gallon. So you can have two 4 inch fish and a 2 inch, or five 2 inch fish. Prevents overcrowding. :laugher
 
#15 ·
fair enough sailguy - but I find it hard to believe there wasn't alcohol involved in cramming 10 people onto a 22' sailboat after a late night party.

I guess I'll wait for the details. It said they were from NASA's Langley center (aeronautical research), I would think they'd act smarter. :rolleyes:
 
#17 ·
sailboat capsizes with 10 aboard

so the truth is that the capacity (as confirmed by VMRC) is 10; all safety regulations were complied with; no one "drunk"--no indication at all (and, yes, I have personal knowledge); a few beers by some, but not all--and that over a 4-5 hour period BEFORE even getting on the boat; no cutting up. Just 10 people on a pretty small boat.
maybe the operator moved away from the rudder to let someone access the back to use the bathroom? maybe all on board weren't familiar with boats, the rudder--and maybe someone pushed the rudder hard to the side. this boat doesn't have a deep keel; it went over quickly. cold water, dark, a long time trying to right it. good kids; not one of them a drain on society; all working and on their own, not robbing your houses or drunk-driving and killing your kids; or sucking up welfare money that will cheat you out of social security; all with families and dreams. No one can ultimately fight the cold; tread water and swim while trying to help a weaker swimmer and if you're a lean healthy person the cold is going to eventually get you. Is that survival of the fittest? it's exactly the opposite. if the fit had swam for it and forgot about the others, they would probably be here to tell the story. they could've done everything right but cold is cold and the best of us can't fight biology.
why such negative assumptions? how would you like to read some of these comments about someone you loved? who said they were drunk or worthless? all they really did is go out for a late night sail on a beautiful night--and, yea, they didn't actually have the lifevests ON.
I've accidentally pushed a rudder to the side many times but had someone nearby who corrected; i know all of us have done a lot more careless things, probably every single day-- so maybe it's all just luck; terrible luck; one second of a decision that ended badly.
most of the people i know in the sailing community seem so laid back and peaceful; a nice attitude toward life and living. some of these posts are meanspirited--very surprising. hope there's karma
 
#21 ·
Sailingforfun,
When I posted that these were simply "kids" my point was to attempt to rein in the rhetoric without being preechy. I think there was trending a tendancy toward some rather harsh commentary and was trying to steer it back around to the tragedy that two young people were lost and that there are two families out there suffering those losses.

When I stated that this was a group of "kids" I did so paternalistically, I have children this age and I do recognise that they are adults, I also recognise that "young adults" do not view risk as many of us older folks do which is a large reason why militaries around the world are mostly comprised of twenty-somethings, IMHO.

No offense intended. My sincere condolences to their families.
 
#20 ·
I saw a picture of the boat. Despite official capacity, way too small for 10 people. Heck, I've got a 34 footer and I'll never have 10 people on it except maybe when sitting at the dock - and even then, 10's too many.

Yes, you are right. From what I've read, all were good, intelligent young people. Sorry this had to happen.
 
#23 ·
FWIW, every time I hear a story like this I'm just glad my son got through those years OK.

Will the list members who DIDN'T do dumb crap in their teens please raise their hands. What no hands? Yep, thought so...
 
#24 ·
FWIW, every time I hear a story like this I'm just glad my son got through those years OK.

Will the list members who DIDN'T do dumb crap in their teens please raise their hands. What no hands? Yep, thought so...
When I was your age I walked to school, up hill, both ways, barefoot, in the snow, with a load of firewood in my arms. :p

It's sad that this ended in tragedy. However, those pointing fingers and throwing stones are suffering from selective memory.
 
#27 ·
You may take my statement out of context, but way

I am sorry if I have stepped on your toes. It is absolutely sad when parents have to attend funeral of their child. But yet, it is the responsibility of the parent mind their own children and instill social responsibly in the head in a young age. It is not the school's responsibility.

Partying, drinking and operating a boat is just plain stupid. If this happened to a young man, I blamed the parent. If they love their children, then take care of them away from harm.

In my career for the last 30 years, I have saved and improved the quality of others. I have not lost the humanity in me. In fact, as I grow older my passion in improving the quality of life grows stronger. The is way i have not retired yet because there are so much to do.

Kids don't some very stupid things. because it is not programed in their genes. It is the influence they gain from the surrounding. If you are old enough to have kids, then you are old enough to care for them. Show them the proper way, instills value in their head. Don't blame the government, the internet, or Obama. Take care your own, especially your kids.

Again, I am sorry to step on yours toes. All the best and hope you find peace in your heart.
 
#38 ·
Rockdawg,
Just curious. Do you always drive the speed limit or below? If you answer is no, what if you ran over a child and you were driving 1 mph over the limit. Should you be held accountable? Have you ever had a child passanger in you car and maybe on a rare occasion not had the proper safety or booster seat but drove the child anyway using a grown up belt? Have you ever driven a car that was not in top shape, maybe the tires were worn, or the conditions (icy) were poor? Have you ever driven when you were tired but thought you really needed to get to where you wanted to go?

We all take risk, mostly we win, but sometimes we loose.
 
#28 ·
Yes, parents are responsible for their kids. These, as I understand it, were young adults in their 20s. They should no longer be subject to complete parental supervision. We routinely have very mature adults do incredibly stupid things. The news is full of these stories.

I feel for their families and friends. I lost a college friend to a boating accident about two months after we all graduated. A midnight harbor cruise with 3 couples. They hit a marker in the dark and Tommy fell overboard and they lost him. Bad stuff happens. Really bad.
 
#35 ·
capsized boat

thank you to all of you who joined in with more understanding than what I saw in some of the early posts
i wasn't offended by calling them kids--i have kids in their 20's too--i would still call them kids
on the other hand, each one of them chose to step on the boat and chose not to find a vest and either put it on or have it nearby--so I wouldn't put the blame on any one of them in particular; not the owners or operators or anyone else; they were adults in that respect; another 23-year old wouldn't have been able to make them wear a vest.
even so; this is so tragic that it can just stop me cold
those aren't just bad or even crazy-reckless things to do--just not taking the conservative safe route; it was calm weather and water; they all thought they could swim and were just staying in the river--no big open Bay water; there were vests on board--and all of their phones in a dry bag; guess they figured it the boat got into trouble some of them could swim alongside or they'd have plenty of time to get the vests;
then--it went over suddenly; i heard it was a retractable keel--unsteady--once it flipped, it was dark and they tried for a very long time to right it again but couldn't; it was cold and they knew they had to get to shore and couldn't afford to keep trying.
the operator moved from the rudder to the front of the boat to let the girls have privacy to use the bathroom; best guess is that someone pushed the rudder hard to the left or right and tipped the boat suddenly; a mistake; maybe hard to balance and grabbed it to gain her own balance--or maybe a wave jogged it to one side suddenly; not sure anyone will know for sure, but seems the most likely thing that happened.
5 reached shore after swimming for over 3 hours--that's a lot of will power and good determined kids. the others were in groups--and it's not hard to understand that means they had an intimate connection to their two good friends being overtaken by hypothermia and no way to help them.
those 2 boys were health conscious and nice--read their facebook pages; people of all ages praise them for just being NICE--nice to everyone--kids who loved nature, who took walks and hikes and tried to take full advantage of the beautiful outdoors---and in the end--those two--who had no body fat--who were so lean and fit---had zero protection from the cold. i'm thinking they were so fit they probably could have peeled off and made it to shore with the others. wonder why they were so far back---helping the others?
a long and traumatic night, full of big open black quiet water, unable to hear or see their other friends, no way to call for help; the last ones were in the water for almost six long long hours; think about that.
i feel so bad for all of them and I think we're worse off without them; sort of makes you wonder about all those out there who clearly DON'T care about taking care of themselves or anyone else--and how they manage to stay alive
 
#39 ·
I agree with why the name calling. They were young adults and I agree with probably not intoxicated. (read the same bad accident on the SF Bay with a totally sober large family) I have two kids, adult sons 25 and 22 a non-partier and an outdoors type partier that does like a drink. They grew up around boating and they both know that a 22ft sailboat won't hold 10 people, hence they wouldn't have been on it.
This accident happened to some who were/are good adults that made some bad judgments about a boat that never should have more than 7 persons on board if you want to operate the boat and than I feel that is 2 to many.
10 on my 32' is crowded but we can still sit all on one side without it heeling to much due to its 13,000 lbs boat weight and deep keel weight and not just a 2,500 lbs. tub.
My prayers go out to the families that lost their "kids"
 
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