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Interesting Sailboats

3M views 7K replies 205 participants last post by  tdw 
#1 · (Edited)
Sirius 32, Sirius 35

THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:

Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out). Recent designs out of production are also admissible.

Modern boat designs and modern one off, if interesting.

Classical boats and traditional boats.

Small cruisers (less than 35ft)

Seezunge 27ft: PG1-PT9

Hanse 325: PG19-PT185;

Presto 30 : 33-326; 33-327; 34-331; 34-333; 55-543; 55-544;

Tess Yachts: 37-366; 38-373;

Tess 28 Magnum: 37-369; 38-371;

Delphia 28: 38-373;

Vancouver 27/28 : 42-412; 72-717;

Cruisers between 35ft and 49ft


Catalina 355 : 31-306;

RM sailboats: PG5-PT41; 5-42

RM1050: PG5-PT46; 5-47; 5-48;

RM 1060: PG8-PT77; 8-78; 8-79; 8-80; 9-81; 30-295; 40-400; 79-786;

RM 1200: PG9-PT84; 9-85; 19-184; 20-191; 20-192; 41-404; 42-414; 42-418; 43-425; 43-426; 69-688;

RM 1350: PG9-PT82; 55-549; 95-943;

Morris Yachts: PG7-PT61

Bavaria 36: PG19-PT188; 19-190; 20-196;

Bavaria 40: PG10-PT95; 28-278; 29-281; 29-282; 29-283; 29-286; 32-316; 36-356; 51-502; 51-507; 52-518; 53-527; 53-532;

Bavaria 40s: 69-685; 78-775;

Bavaria 45: PG10-PT96; 19-190;

Rustler Yachts: PG11-PT104;

Jeanneau 409: PG11-PT103: 11-106; 30-298; 30-299; 36-356; 51-502; 51-504; 51-505; 51-509; 52-513; 52-514; 52-515; 52-516; 53-527; 54-532; 57-564; 57-570; 58-571; 58-580; 59-581; 59-583; 59-585; 62-614; 74-739; 91-906;

Jeanneau 439: 40-396; 40-397; 59-584; 59-585; 96-956;

Hanse Yachts: 16-154; 16-156; 16-158;

Hanse 400: 81-804;

Bluewater cruising yachts: 21-206

Beneteau Oceanis 37 : 31-306; 31-308; 31-309; 32-314; 55-541;

XC 38: 36-356; 96-954;

Diva 38: 39-386;

Diva 35: 40-391;

Dufour 405: 62-614;

Defline 43: 63-622

Walkabout 43: 93-923; 93-925; 93-927;

Small performance cruisers (less than 35ft)


Performance 32ft test: 29-87;

Sun Fast 3200: PG4-PT33; 4-34; 4-36; 30-293;

Elan 210: 70-691; 70-696; 78-779; 79-781;

Elan 310: PC7-PT64; 7-69; 8-71; 36-356; 41-408;

Quest 33: PG7-PT62

Olea 32: 25-243; 25-245;

First 27.7: 38-373; 38-380; 39-382;

First 30: 30-295; 39-356; 41-408; 55-545; 55-546;

Comet 26: 34-340; 35-345; 35-350; 36-353;

Pacer 30: 36-357;

Django 7.7: 40-399;

Vivace/Evosion 34: 45-442; 45-446; 45-445; 45-446; 45-447; 45-448; 45-449; 45-450; 46-458; 46-460;

Finn Flyer 34: 46-451; 46-453; 60-593;

Salona 34: 46-457;

Heol 7.4: 63-621; 63-622;

Azuree 33: 87-867; 91-902; 91-904;

JPK 10.10: 88-877 ; 88-880; 89-883;

Performance cruisers (between 35ft and 49ft)

Pogo 10.50: PG2-PT20; 3-27; 3-28; 3-30; 4-35; 5-50; 6-51; 6-52; 6-60; 11-101; 11-107; 11-110; 43-425; 44-440; 87-861; 87-867;

Pogo 12.50: PG13-PT125; 20-198; 20-199; 22-214; 27-264; 27-265; 27-269; 32-317; 32-319; 43-425; 43-426; 43-428; 44-432; 44-437; 44-439; 55-546; 55-547; 82-812; 84-831; 87-870;

Este 40: 89-890; 90-893; 90-899;

A35: PG5-PT42; 5-44; 66-660;

A40RC: 92-914;

Hammerhead 35: 64-645

Opium 39: PG5-PT42; 9-85; 9-89; 13-125; 22-220; 22-221; 43-426; 55-547; 86-857;

Aerodyne 35: PG7-PT62

Elan 350: PG7-PT64; 13-24; 13-126; 13-127; 13-128; 14-132; 18-178; 26-255; 36-356; 40-398; 41-405; 57-564; 59-589; 60-591; 72-711; 73-724; 74-738;

Elan 380: 23-223; 25-249; 26-256; 40-398; 59-589; 97-962;

Elan 410: 32-316; 79-784;

JPK 110: PG9-PT85; 10-91

Olea 44: PG10-PT100; 27-268;

Olea Yachts: 25-247;

Dufour 40e: Pg13-Pt125; 32-316; 55-547; 56-558; 56-559; 57-561; 57-562; 57-563; 59-586; 59-588,

Salona 37: 36-359; 41-406;

Salona 41: PG15-PT141; 15-145; 32-316; 36-356; 40-398; 54-538; 57-569; 78-778; 80-796; 80-798; 97-965;

Salona 42: PG15-PT145; 36-359; 40-398; 93-929; 94-932;

Cigale 16: PG15-PT148; 16-152; 17-161; 55-549; 63-625;

Cigale 14: PG17-PT163; 55-549;

Santa Cruz 43: PG17-PT169

Sydney Yachts: PG18-PT171; 18-175;

Sydney GTS 37: 43-423;

Sydney GTS 43: PG18-PT173;

Winner 12.20: PG20-193;

First 40: 31-304; 32-313; 32-316; 35-344; 36-354; 55-546; 55-547;

First 35: 36-356

Dehler 41: 30-296;

Dehler 44: 79-785;

Dehler 45: 36-356; 79-785;

Luffe 40.04: 30-300; 31-301; 31-303;

XP 38: 56-533; 56-544; 56-555; 67-622;

XP 44: 33-325;

Pacer 430: 36-357;

Pacer 376: 36-357; 66-652; 69-683;

Faurby 424: 36-360; 37-361; 37-363; 37-365;

Comfortina 39: 40-395;

J 133: 43-426; 63-620

J 111: 100-993;

Maxi 11: 99-982;

Arcona yachts: 46-456;

Arcona 410: 47-467; 47-468; 47-469; 48-471;

Arcona 430: 48-472;

Arcona 460: 50-495

Finngulf yachts: 46-456;

Varianta 44: 60-594; 60-595; 60-596; 60-597; 60-598; 64-639;

Imagine 53: 63-628;

Zou 40.2: 63-620

Ker 39: 68-676;

Finn-Flyer 42: 77-762;

Azuree 40: 85-842;

Loft 40: 85-848; 85-852;

Vivace 35: 90-895;

Sailing boats over 49ft

Zeydon 60 : PG 12-119;

JP 54: PG18-PT172;

Salona 60: 70-695;

Stadships: PG20-PT193; 20-195;

Pogo 50: 32-318; 32-319;

X-50: 54-537;

Murtic 52: 54-537;

Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats

Sirius 32: PG1-PT1

Sirius 35: PG1-PT1; 1-10; 2-18; 50-491; 50-492; 60-559; 60-599;

Sirius 31: PG1-PT5; 2-17; 36-356;

Regina 35: 48-478;

Regina 40: PG11-PT104; 49-481; 49-483;

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Luffe 43DS: PG12-PT111; 12-115; 50-494;

Noordkaper 40: PG14-pt139;

Noordkaper yachts: PG16-PT155

Nordship 36: 30-297; 49-482;

Nordship 38: 49-482; 49-490;

Paulo's pilot house I: 38-376; 39-381; 39-383; 39-384;

Paulo's pilot house II: 69-682

Lyman & Morse 45: 38-379;

CR 38DS: 48-477; 48-478;

CR 40DS: 48-476; 48-478; 48-479; 50-494; 50-496; 50-497; 50-498;

Arcona 40DS: 50-494;

Racers

Figaro 2:pG4-PT36; 4-37; 5-42; 6-52; 6-53; 6-55; 6-56

VOR 70: PG16-PT160; 17-187

Farr 400: 67-661

Soto 40: 96-952;

Lifting keel/centerboarder

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Allures 45: PG10-PT93; 100-996;

Allures yachts: 25-248;

OVNI 425: 23-228;

OVNI 395 : 68-679; 69-690;

J 108: 67-661

Atlantic 43: 68-67

Boreal 44: 97-970; 98-974;

Multihulls till 34ft

Several Trimarans: 28-273;

Multihulls with 34ft and over

Dragonfly yachts: 26-257;

Dragonfly 35: 26-258; 27-261; 27-262;

Dragonfly 1200: 56-551;

Corsair 37: 28-276;

Farrier 39: 28-277;

Challenge 37: 28-278

Hammerhead 34: 29-385;

Hammerhead 54: 29-288; 30-292;

Trimax 10.80: 29-285;

Sig 45: 54-534; 54-539; 54-540;

Gunboat: 56-551

Fusion: 56-551;

Outremer: 56-551;

Tournier: 56-511;

Classical and Traditional boats

Jclass boats: 54-537;

Tofinou 12: 71-703;

Folck boat: 73-727;

Puffin Yachts: PG14-PT135; 14-138; 16-155;

Bestwind 50: PG12-PT116; 14-123;

Bestevaer 53: PG12-PT116;

Bestevaer yachts: PG16-PT155

Cape George 36: 41-410; 42-412;

Marieholm 33 : 42-412;

This list is not actualized. Please use the advanced search engine of the thread with the name of the model and builder. It works, most of the time.

(actualized till PG100) and it will be no more because that gives a lot of work (500 pages now).

Instead I am actualizing the titles and with the right title the thread search engine (not the one on the top of the page bit the one much below that says search thread) on its advanced option works quite well.

Hello,

Melrna posts on Miami Boat show and the comments of Smackdady about the interest of that thread lead me to think that perhaps I could share more information about sailboats I know and find interesting.

I am interested in boat design (interior and sailing performance) and I go each year at least to one of the main European Boat shows and that means basically Dusseldorf, Paris or Hamburg. On these shows you have the opportunity not only to visit the boats of the main and medium size builders but you have also the opportunity to visit the boats of small and sometime family shipyards.

Normally they build very good sailboats and sometimes they have been doing that for decades. The boats are hugely appreciated by their faithful customers but because they don't advertise their boats and there are very few on the used boat market, they pass unnoticed by the majority of the sail community.

The visit to these boats is a very rewarding experience because they are made with passion by true boat lovers and because when you talk to the guy that is on the boat, you are not talking with a dealer, that many times doesn't know much about boats, but with the builder, or the designer.

Even if you are not a buyer they will have real pleasure in talking with someone that really appreciates and understands their work. Those guys really believe in what they are doing and they do it the best way they can, no matter the cost. In a word, they are in love with what they are doing.
Of course, these boats have to be expensive.

This thread will be mainly about these boats, as a way of letting you know about these gems. Let's see if you are interested. I will not post much. If you want to know more you have just to participate and make questions.

The first one it will be the "Sirius". I have had the pleasure to visit several times their boats and to talk with the builders (father and son).

These boats have the best interiors you can find, or at least that I have seen. Not only the quality, but the design and ergonomy are fantastic. You really won't believe you are in a 32ft boat. Just incredible and amazing; Have a look at it:

Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin | 32 DS for 2 forecabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | 32 DS 4-berth comfort owner´s cabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Workshop | 32 DS for 2 workshop

Now that the son is in charge they have modernized the outside look of the new boats, they look fantastic not only inside but also outside. The boats sail well and they have clients as far as Japan.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Versions of decks house | You have the choice

Another interesting point is the way they develop new boats. They work with the clients to collect suggestions on the shape and design of the boats. A truly interesting affair, between passionate clients and passionate builders.

Sirius-Werft Plön | 35 DS | Philosophy

Take a good look at their interesting site and if you find the boat interesting, please let me know, I can add some information.

Sirius-Werft Plön | english | Welcome at website of Sirius-Werft Plön

Regards

Paulo
 
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#1,206 ·
Hello all,
Thanks PCP for the translation.
About hydrogenerator, we are more than happy with it. although the price is high, our savings in fuel are already quite high and as we continue travelling the savings will keep on stacking up. Moreover, you don't feel guilty to use power as you won't then have to use fossile energy.
G1000 guessed right, it is effectively a GO PRO camera. We had the hydrogenerateur for 4700 € ex vAT. Let's say the price is negociable.
Jib arrangement is fine, you just need to make sure your sail maker understands the system and, consequently, raises clew higher than the usual.
Then you can basically control clew height and in/out position by balancing tension between the outer and the inner hauler. For one trim of sheet, you can then fine tune by changing ring postion.
I think I might add some more demultiplication to reduce efforts on cleats.
So yes, I am very happy with it. Moreover it has been very easy to install and cheaper than a track.

Best regards for Saint Vincent.
 
#1,210 · (Edited)
#1,212 · (Edited)
And another race, this one a veeery popular one, the Round the Island Race, with all kinds of interesting sailboats. With more than 1900 you have to have all kinds of sail boats:). very nice movies with all kind of boats and the results can give us some base of comparison between boats for the race conditions: windy and with waves.

YouTube - ‪J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011 Start Vodcast‬‏

YouTube - ‪Start footage from the J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011‬‏

YouTube - ‪J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011 Needles heli footage‬‏

YouTube - ‪J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011 Back of Island action footage‬‏

As usual I am not interested in compensated results but in pure performance for size. For the record let me tell you that in compensated, among a multitude of racing boats, the winner was a Contessa 26:D and that in the first 10 places there was 5 slow boats: the 4th, 8th and 9th were Folk boats and the 5th was a Laurent Giles 1984 wooden boat. This only means that those boats have a huuuuuge handicap and that work well under those circumstances.

Saying that the Contessa 26 time is unbelievably good with a real time of 8 hours and 19 minutes.

The fastest boat was a Multi50 class Trimaran with 3.50 and the fastest monohull a TP 52 with 4.43.

I hear lot's of guys saying that the TP 52 are downwind boats but this one has beaten clearly in real time a 2000 Farr 52, supposedly a better upwind boat (4.55).

Another interesting point: Several Class 40 racing. How do they perform in real time in mixed conditions compared with other 40ft boats?

Best class 40 a Akilaria with 6.36 than a Jumbo with 6.54 and a Pogo with 7.38. Not famous results if compared with other 40 racing boats: Ker 11.3 - 6.19; J 111 - 5.59; Benetau Figaro II - 6.36 and 6.44 . And even the best cruiser racers were able to do better or equal: King 40 - 6.03; Sydney 39 - 6.18; J 122 - 6.25 and 6.50; A40rc - 6.37; Ker 39 - 6.27; First 40 - 6.43 and 6.49; Comet 41 - 6.56; Elan 410 - 7.0 -7.0 and 7.42.

The conclusion I have taken some posts back regarding the performance of the 40 class boats seem accurate: They are unbeatable for their size on the trade winds in a Transat but put them in offshore coastal conditions and they are equal or slower comparing with more traditional boats.

Regarding cruising versions I think it will be the same, Pogo 12.50 versus First 40 or Salona 41. On coastal conditions the Pogo will not average a better speed.

More to come about more cruising oriented boats and the relative differences to performance boats.

Feel free to comment. I would be more than happy to discuss this. I am trying to have a justified opinion about the performance of different kinds of fast boats with different hull and ballast options.
 
#1,213 ·
Hello,

Last year, I did the Giraglia on A40 RC, maybe the best performing one in IRC at that time. As we were beating along in 25 knots, you could easily see the class 40 boats just passing by. Being lower but a hell of a lot faster. Then, we rounded a mark to attack some Downwind VMG in 30 knots. The few class 40 that were still behind at that point just passed by effortlessly. On the A40 RC, we were working the boat hard, pumping, grinding the spi hard and often swaping crew to not burn ourselves. The class 40 just passed by with Akite over trimmed and the guys having some food in the cockpit. Not at all the same scenario as we had. Eventually, wind slacked off completly and we could see the class 40s far ahead, they seamed sticky. But we never managed to get back to them.
We finished as first A40, ahead of the two first 40 that were competing, and just behing a Salona 42 that has a way better rating.
Then, the last tour of Corsica, I was on a Grand Soleil 40 BC with the full race kit. It has been a mostly light to very light race. No class 40 racing, but we faced a Class 9.50 (akilaria) and we just could not get rid of them. It was always next to us while being a hell of lot shorter.
These observations reconforted me in my choice of beamy light displacement boat to go around. Appart from hard beating from 10 to 15 knots (depending on sea state), and VMG downwind in the same range, the wide and light is performing better and does not need as much work to be quick as a usual more cruising orientated boat. Class 40 often go with 4 crew while you'd need 11 people on a First 40 to get it around properly.
Then again, for the same budget as a class 40 you can get a longer "traditionnal" boat, so that is maybe when you can actually get performance / cash even.

Regards
 
#1,214 ·
Adrien, thanks for your insight that is certainly an informed one but as you can see by the results of that race there are conditions were the class 40 are beaten by cruiser racers. Very fast cruiser racers like the King 40 or the Ker 39 have beaten all class 40 by a considerable difference and more "normal" cruiser racers like the First 40, J 122 or A40rc made similar times.

On the two last Sydney to Hobart a Pogo class40 raced by a local racing crew that race the boat extensively for several years were beaten in real time by a First 40.

I think that there is no doubts that in some conditions traditional cruiser racers can be faster than pure racing boats like the class 40 and certainly faster that the cruiser versions that as you know don't have water ballasts. I believe, and the conditions on that races suggest, that happens in heavy seas and waves of considerable size and also when the percentage of upwind sailing is important.

Regarding your boat, I have said already that for travelling and eventually circumnavigate following the trade winds a boat like yours or a Pogo makes all the sense. I agree that a beamy boat with a large transom is more stable downwind and easier to sail, even on autopilot. The reverse is that a boat with a moderate beam like a First 40 or a Salona 41 will take a lesser pounding upwind and is at least as easy to sail on that position, if not easier.

Regards

Paulo
 
#1,215 · (Edited)
Just to check I did have a look at last year results. The race was slower with less wind and waves. Actually this is a good race to measure overall sailing results. It is a complete tour of an Island in about seven hours so the chances is that you get wind from all directions.

Even with a slower race with less wind and waves the results were consistent with this year results:

The fastest 40class was an Akilaria 40 with 7.03 then a Jumbo 7.41 then a Pogo 7.47. On the top cruiser racers the fastest was a king 40 with 6.59 then a Ker 39 with 7.05 (another one made 7.33). On more "normal" cruiser racers a J122 made 7.07 another 7.08 an Elan 410 7.13, another 7.31. A First 40 made 7.12 another 7.27 and a A40rc made 7.16.

I had also a look at the Giraglia results (2011):

GIRAGLIA ROLEX CUP 2011

This year only two class 40 entered, one made 44.03 other 46 hours 59m. There was cruiser racers faster (real time) and others with similar times: the fastest a Millenium 40 with 45.25 a J122 with 45.44 another with 46.30, a Rimar 41.3 with 46.41 and a Salona 42 with 46.52.

Last year on the Giraglia offshore race I can only find a Class 40, a Pogo that made 48.39 and again a cruiser racer was faster, a J122 with 47.35 and several others made similar times: Dehler 39 - 48.40, Rimar 41.3 - 48.48, Hanse 400 - 48.48, A40-48.49.

You can download the results from the last PDF on this page:

Google
 
#1,216 ·
Hello,
The more upwind, the better is a narrow and heavy boat. No doubt about that.
Looking at your conclusions, I have to admit I am quite surprised. I guess I'll have to race the Fox 10.20, and see by myself how this goes. It could be interesting..... I guess I'll need new sails by the time I reach Sydney. :)
 
#1,221 ·
Yes I would be very interested in seeing how the Fox 10.20 would go on an offshore race. That boat is different from the Pogo, not only the hull but mostly the beam, with a significant difference. The Fox 10.20 has 3.60m the Pogo 10.50 has 3.90. Probably the B/D ratio (both boats with 1.95 drafts) is close and around 35%. Probably that will give the Pogo a bigger stability (more form stability) and will make it slightly better downwind but the Fox should be better upwind.

Maybe your time in Australia coincides with the Sydney-Hobart I am sure you would like to do that and it would give a lot of publicity to the boat;).

Regarding the Class 40 performance we tend to think that it is pretty much an open boat with some limitations concerning making it affordable and I think that was the intention but the Box rule as a snag in it that condition the shape of the boat and greatly limit the designer options: Regarding stability the boat at 90º of heel has to make a righting force of at least 235kgf and a maximum force of 320kg.

The minimum force has to do with safety measures, giving it the ability to recover easily from a knock out but the max force has to do with giving all the boats a similar stability and that has to do with a similar sail performance.

This way of measuring the max righting force for performance purposes limits the choice of the type of boat and don't make any sense to me. Measuring the Max righting force at 90º will give only one option to the designer: To increase form stability (beam) and to limit the boat ballast to a minimum. Why? Because increasing sail power with form stability has no effect in the force the boat makes to right itself up at 90º while increasing sail power with ballast has a direct effect in that measure at 90º.

This does not make any sense because limits the choice of the type of boats regarding pure performance and because it is stupid to limit final stability. At 90º on an offshore boat you will want to have all the righting force you can at 90º. It will never be too much.

For limiting righting force for performance purposes the force should be measured at 25 or 30º not at 90º.

We tend to think that a 40class boat is the best shape for an offshore boat assuming wrongly that the designers can pretty much design what they want and that is just the better compromise because it is what they all design but it is not so and evidence on offshore races with varied winds show that those boats overall performance is inferior to other 40ft racing boats that are not limited by that senseless rule.

The 40 class boats have a similar overall performance with fast cruiser racers like the J122, Ker 39, King 40, First 40 (and are often beaten by them) and have a very significant inferior overall performance compared with the fastest racing 40ft, like the Farr 400 or the ker 40.

On the Round the Island Race, a race with varied winds, even a smaller racing boat, a single Ker 11.3 has beaten every year (I have saw in the last 3) very clearly and without any doubt four class 40 . The races had very different weather patterns, the last with stronger winds on 2010 with medium to light winds and on 2009 with light winds.

With light winds all the Class 40 were also beaten very clearly by a 37 cruiser racer, a Santa Cruz 37 (the fastest 40class by 17 minutes).

Ker Design

On 2011: Ker 11.3 - 6.20 The fastest 40class - 6.36. On this one raced also a racing Ker 40 - 5.53 (look at the difference).

On 2010 Ker 11.3 - 7.12 The fastest 40class - 7.41

On 2009 Ker 11.3 - 9.48 The fastest 40class - 10.10

And we are talking about the performance of a single boat against the best performance of four, which makes a big difference.

All these boats(that are faster than a class 40) have one thing in common, a moderate beam, are heavier and have a much bigger B/D ratio, in some cases almost half the weight of the boat is on the keel. They are heavier but they are faster:D.

I know that downwind a beamy boat with the beam brought aft is more stable and easier to sail solo but I doubt that it will be easier to sail upwind, probably quite the contrary. It is really a shame that the Box rule for the 40 Class would not allow different kinds of hulls to be competitive. I would like to see what is really the fastest type of 40ft, for solo sailing or short crew sailing, a boat like the 40 class or a less beamy boat with a bigger B/D ratio.

Regards

Paulo
 
#1,217 ·
Interesting info on the race results. Obviously there are rules and exceptions. With the race performance of the smaller boats it looks like they know that area like the back of their hand and can take advantage of it.

This year based on feedback there was about 25 kts on the nose for the first 13 miles, running against the current of about 2 kts. 2nd leg downwind for 13 miles with @ 135° to the wind with about 25kts, next two legs downwind 5 miles each with winds in 20-25 kts and tide weakening. Then 4 miles leg wind at about 70%, then 12 miles with the wind on the nose, slack going to running with the current. Wind in 12-15 kts.

30 miles upwind of which 13 against a strong current, 20 miles downwind. Your VMG get's killed on the designs that don't point into the 35° with that type of current. I would "imagine" if you look at the race stage by stage, you see that the planing designs got hammered on the first leg and held their own after.

Not making excuses because I'm not concerned one way or another but 8 hours for 50 NM straight line - figure well over 70nm with the tacks is still >8 kts average for a 40 footer. I don't know who was crewing on either nor the kit sail wise but that's a major factor as we all know. I bet the logs on the narrower boats show less NM because they can point better on those 2 upwind legs.

Congrats to the "little guys" for their performance.
 
#1,218 ·
BB74, thanks for the additional information about the weather and wind on the Round the Island race.:) Tomorrow I will post some information comparing the performance of the cruiser racers with the performance of the cruisers. This race has so many boats involved that is an invaluable source of information to compare the real performance of different sailboat types. That's true that the crew is fundamental for the performance but when we have several similar boats with identical performance conclusions can be taken;).
 
#1,219 · (Edited)
So let's look at the cruiser boat times having as reference the times of the two best Class 40 (between 6.36 and 6.54) and the times of the fastest cruiser-racers (J122 -6.25; Sydney 39 - 6.18; Ker 39- 6.27; A40 rc - 6.37; First 40 6.49).

Curiously there was two OVNIS there and as there was some discussion on this thread about their performance their comparative results are interesting: OVNI 435 - 8.10; OVMI 39 5- 8.59. Very good if we consider that these ate aluminum center boarders and that is worst sailing position is upwind sailing. A Southerly 46RS (8.07) a swing keel boat but with ballast on the keel did not so good (I would expect the boat to be much faster than the OVNI 435).

Other unexpected good performances taking into account the sea and wind conditions: Jeanneau 36i - 8.00; Dufour 405 - 8.21; Oceanis 40 - 8.36; Hanse 400 -8.12; Jeanneau SO 42i - 7.50; Jeanneau 54DS 7.50; Jeanneau 49DS 8.07; Bavaria 46 - 8.12.

Of course we don't know how good was the crew and if the boat was sailed to its potential. Some of those boats had more sisters racing and they got remarkably worst results so I guess they were well sailed: The second jeanneau 36i -10.41 (lot's of Bavarias 36 faster than that 9.23, 9.24 and so on) , the second Hanse 400 - 8.49, the second best Oceanis 40 -9.54.

Let's see how these times compare with good and fast medium weight cruisers, taking into attention that the conditions were favorable for them: Contessa 35 -9.36; Najad 380 - 9.04; Comfortina 42 - 8.21; Bowman 42 -8.02.

Let's see how these times compare with smaller performance cruisers:
Elan 31 - 8.06; First 35 -6.43 (almost as fast as the fastest 40class boat), another with 7.08; A35 - 7.12; J109 -7.02 - 7.10 - 7.13 - 7.15; Elan 350 - 7.08, Elan 380 - 7.29 - ; Arcona 370 - 7.54 -8.40; Dehler 39 -7.39 - 8.08.

Some other interesting results, the Hammerhead 35, a boat with a swing keel that was discussed on this thread, show that with all that technology was slower than less sophisticated and less expensive 35 ft boats. The JP 52, also posted in this thread (a kind of smaller Open60 cruising boat) kick ass with 5.15, the Grand Soleil 43 has done very well (6.43 and 6.45) as well as the Arcona 430 - 6.44 (both boats are on the thread). We all know that the J 133 is a fast boat : 6.37 - 6.59 with comparable results with a Class 40.

Finally the multihulls that with unfavorable conditions have showed that they can go, even with waves and mostly against the wind, faster than much bigger monohulls. I have already mentioned the scratch winner, a racing Multi50 (the one you can have in a cruising version, mentioned some posts back) with 3.50 and the cruising ones: Dragonfly 920 - 5.45; Farrier 27 - 6.00; Dragonfly 28 - 6.09; Corsair Dash 750 - 6.19.

A last word for the cruiser racers of another era, the Contessas that in these sea and wind conditions performed admirably well: The winner, a Contessa 26 with 8.19 and the 32's with 8.08 - 8.08 - 8.09. If we compare their results with the ones from the J 80 we can see that there is not a big difference: 7.28 - 7.28 - 7.51.

Comments please? I would like to know what you think about these results.

Regards

Paulo
 
#1,220 ·
These results are indeed somewhat suprising. Class 40's being built following only a "box rule" without any handicap concerns, one should expect they perform best in real time.

I think one thing is for sure: upwind class 40's and consorts will not do better and may be worse than less beamy cruiser-racers. And because of their very light weight they then are less comfortable in an seaway, especially in wind-against-tide conditions. I only thought that bearing down just a little would improve this without compromising VMG but these results seem to contradict this thumb rule.

But I also think there is little doubt that light, beamy and twin ruddered boats like the class 40's will perform better at any other wind angle. If not in speed, then most certainly in comfort and control.
I had the same experience Capado described on a Pogo 10.50: while others where struggling at the winches and on the rail to keep both boat and spinaker in control, we passed by having tea on autopilot.

As stated again and again on this thread: it all comes down to choices and the right compromise.

Kind regards,

Eric
 
#1,225 · (Edited)
These results are indeed somewhat suprising. Class 40's being built following only a "box rule" without any handicap concerns, one should expect they perform best in real time.

I think one thing is for sure: upwind class 40's and consorts will not do better and may be worse than less beamy cruiser-racers. And because of their very light weight they then are less comfortable in an seaway, especially in wind-against-tide conditions. I only thought that bearing down just a little would improve this without compromising VMG but these results seem to contradict this thumb rule.

But I also think there is little doubt that light, beamy and twin ruddered boats like the class 40's will perform better at any other wind angle. If not in speed, then most certainly in comfort and control.
I had the same experience Capado described on a Pogo 10.50: while others where struggling at the winches and on the rail to keep both boat and spinaker in control, we passed by having tea on autopilot.

As stated again and again on this thread: it all comes down to choices and the right compromise.

Kind regards,

Eric
Eric,
the last posts may induce some in error regarding the seaworthiness and safety of class 40 and Pogo cruisers. Not what I meant.

As I have said before Pogo cruisers and Class 40 have a good AVS and a good safety stability, by modern standards. A boat like the KING 40 or the KER 39 would have even a better one but if we compare the Pogo with a Benetau Oceanis a Dufour Grand large, Jeanneau, Bavaria, Hanse the Pogo will have a better AVS and a better final stability and most of all a much better dynamic stability.

I have said that the Pogo 10.50 has an B/D ratio of 36% in a 1.95 bulbed keel, while a Benetau Oceanis 40 has 25% with a similar draft keel. Even some cruiser-racers, that have generally a better B/D better than the cruising versions go as low as 30% (Dufour 40e).

Regarding boats like the Pogo its big advantage is really downwind sailing and not only in what regards speed but easiness. It is simple to understand why:

The boat is lighter because has not to carry as much ballast as a King 40 type of boat ( less form stability) and as much of the stability comes from form works since very small angles of heel. If you go downwind on a Pogo and the boat gets unbalanced the form stability will provide the force to counteract that without almost any heeling. Besides being wide provides a better weight distribution and makes it easier to plan.

On a narrower boat that relies more on ballast the same unbalance will need a lot more heel to generate the force to be counterbalanced. But heel downwind is a treacherous thing. When the boat heels it generates more unbalances.

Those that are used to row a a kayak now that if the unbalance that is created while rowing is not immediately counteracted and the bow starts to swing than it will be needed a lot more force to bring it back. On a sailing boat when the boat heels and the bow starts to swing it is needed a sharp correction, otherwise it can pass the point the rudder has the power to correct and a broach will follow.

These makes a beamy boat, with the beam brought back a lot more stable and easy to sail downwind (form stability). And not only because of that but also because a narrow boat with a lot of ballast, that needs some heeling to counteract any unbalance, will tend to heel from side to side, like a pendulum, situation that can be aggravated by waves in synchronicity.

While a boat like the Pogo will naturally kill that movement absorbing it with form stability (that does not need any significant heel to act) a narrow boat will need heel for counteract each movement and the form stability can be not enough to stop that movement. A good hand at the wheel can be needed while on the Pogo an autopilot it will be enough.

As you have said before it is all about choices and the right compromises: How much should one abdicate for a good upwind and more comfortable performance to a good downwind performance?

As you can see the answers, even in what concerns performance boats come in very different ways: From boats like the Pogo that for a 40ft has a 4.5m beam to boats like the Luffe 4004 with 3.4m. The combinations of beam/Ballast/weight are also very different and not all narrow boats have very high B/D, and some medium beam boats have very high B/D ratios, like the King 40/Summit 40.

Most of all his important to know what to expect from each combination because only that way we can chose the boat that we find more fit to our program or to our sailing pleasure;).

Regards

Paulo
 
#1,223 · (Edited)
The results seem intuitive. A hull with a lot of form stability at the expense of ballast stability will heel more on the slopes of swells and this has the greatest effect when going to windward. I also guess that fat boats in a 2m sea state may pitch more spilling energy.

Righting moment increases by the sine of the healing angle thus at 30 degrees of heel you have 0.5 times the keel righting moment that you have at 90 degrees; at 20 degrees you have 0.34 times. Thus boats with deep heavy keels have a significant amount of righting moment even at 20 degrees of heel. A 2000Kg bulb at 3 meters depth equates to 6000 kg m of righting moment at 90 degrees.

The new Farr 400 http://www.farrdesign.com/FYS/724_Farr_400/specs_detailed.pdf has a ballast of 2464Kg and a draft of 2.9m; the boat itself weighs 1666Kg. With a beam of only 3.42m this makes for a very high performace boat indeed.

Most manufactures give total ballast weight which includes the keel; the keel itself being around 20 to 30% of the total ballast weight.

Excessive boat weight minus ballast is always a negative in my mind which is important even in cruising boats. The typical 40ft racer/cruiser gives about 1000kg difference between design weight and light displacement. Not much once water and fuel is considered. Saving 500Kg (light furniture for example) would give 50% more carrying capacity. And if the boat is too light then take more water or make the boat unsinkable with foam or put some layers of Kevlar in the hull.

And as I have noted before righting moment at 90 degrees divided by "Boat weight minus ballast" is, a good first approximation of the performance characteristics of a boat with performance increasing as the ratio gets larger - just an opinion.
 
#1,224 ·
Thanks Erick, I look at it that way, I hope I am not wrong:rolleyes:.

Too much talk:D Time for a boat and an American one that is a favorite among the European that like to race, the Summit 40.

















A beauty isn't it?

The hull shape is not far away from the Salona 41 (the Salona 41 has more beam and less ballast) that someone on this thread have called "old fashioned" :D

This boat is practically the King 40 made in the States by Summit yachts.

When Summit yachts went to Mark Mills (an Irish designer) and ask him to design the ultimate IRC racer, Mills told them that he had already done that and that the boat was winning everywhere, it was the King 40 (one of the boats that have beaten all the class 40 on the last Round the Island race).

So I guess that Summit Yachts had bought the licence to the Argentinians that were manufacturing the King 40 (King Marine) and introducing some very small modifications suggested by Mills, called it the Summit 40:

"The design is based on Mark Mills design for Summit Yachts and originally built by King Marine.

It is arguably the most successful IRC 40 internationally in the last two years.

... On the design side specifically, Mills Design has made subtle changes to the keel fin, bulb, and rudder. The keel will be a bit more forgiving coming out of down speed tacks and will improve acceleration, especially in light air and chop. The bulb has been slightly reduced in wetted surface area, and now allows a slight alteration in weight and draft for more aggressive programs ...

The rudder area and planform remain virtually the same, but the redistribution of volume along the chord will keep flow attached longer and improve heavy air control.

The new keel fin has a provision to add 65mm (2-1/2") of extra draft and another 255 pounds (115.6 kg) of ballast. Moving the bulb down and increasing its weight will increase righting moment. The weight savings in rig, gear and equipment will still mean an all up lighter boat with more ballast and
a lower VCG, higher RM: all going in the right direction. ...

One area where improvements always yield better performance is the rig. We have made significant changes here. First, there are no longer any standard aluminum components in the rig. The entire structure is carbon. Along with this, the mast will be built by Southern Spars and will have better structural properties, and detailing. Specifically, the standard Southern rig will be 55 pounds (24.9 kg) lighter than the previous rig. An internal hydraulic mast jack is now standard. The standing rigging is stainless rod from Rig Pro, and it has significant upgrades in fittings and details. All together the new Southern Spars rig will be a significant improvement over the previous rig in stiffness, windage, and weight."



The boat weights 7100kg has a moderate beam (3.7m) a big draft 2.51m and 3 300kg of ballast, 2500kg on the bulb. The boat has a B/D of 46%.

Compare it with the one from the Pogo 10.50: 36% and remember that the one from the Pogo is at 1.95m and this one is at 2.5m. This huge difference is needed because while most of the stability for sailing in the Pogo (or in a 40 class) comes from form stability here it comes from form stability but also from the ballast.

This way of providing stability for sailing has a very positive effect on the safety stability, AVS and inverted stability that in this boat will be much better than in a 40 class boat. This boat would not pass that 40class test with the boat at 90º. This one will make a lot more force to right itself up than the maximum that is allowed on a 40 class boat.
 
#1,228 · (Edited)
[Summit 40]
A beauty isn't it?
It's absolutely stunning, inside and out. I love the open interior plan, but wonder about the lack of compression post. The interior photo doesn't show what they might have done with the deck structure (presumably centered above the foldaway table). Or did they just leave it out for illustration purposes?

But, I likely needn't concern myself with these pithy details, ;) since the likelihood of me owning one seems nil at the moment. (Any idea of its pricing?)

[Edit: oops. the photo is looking aft, probably taken from directly in front of the compression post.]
 
#1,226 ·
For those that like the Pogo 10.50 (and that includes me:)) some good news:

A new version a lot less expensive, they call it Transquadra and it will cost 135 000 € with 19.6% VAT included. The boat has a fixed keel with 1.99m and an aluminum mast.









Another Pogo is coming, a 9/9.5m boat that can have or not a swing keel. The target price is 80 000€.
 
#1,227 · (Edited)
So it seems that a 40 class boat is not as an open design as we thought. I have posted some time back about an open design, a boat that was designed without any regard to any handicap rules or box rules, the Soto 40, designed by Soto Acerbal for two Argentinians pissed with handicap racing. The boat uses not high technology (carbon) to be affordable and is probably the top racing boat that have experienced in the last year the biggest expansion in one class series all over the world. No doubt, a dam fast boat, upwind and downwind.

Let's have a second look:





Looks beamy. Well it is not. a 40class racer has 4.50m, this one has 3.75m.



compare it with a 40class:



Both boats have the beam brought back but the difference in beam is huge.

Both boats have about 2200kg of ballast but the Class 40 in a bulb at 3.0m and the Soto 40 also in a bulb but at 2.60m. The Class 40 has liquid ballasts, the Soto 40 has also movable ballast with about the same weight (the crew:D). I guess we could substitute that crew by liquid ballast.

The weight of both boats is close, a bit better on the Soto: 4200 to 4500kg.

The Soto carries 88m2 of sail upwind, a 40class 118m2 (the 40 class has a superior righting moment).

Less sail and all, the Soto will have a much better performance upwind and in a mixed wind race, like most offshore races, the Soto will fly away (I guess the performance would not be very far away from the Ker 40 one, and on the race I referred on a previous post that difference was 5.53 to 6.36).

On a "normal" transat with lots of downwind sailing and strong and medium winds the Class 40 will be probably faster. But mind you, the Soto is no sluch downwind and can easily make over 20K speed with strong winds. Take a look:

YouTube - ‪MedCup Soto 40 action‬‏

The Soto is really a fast good looking boat. I wonder about a cruising boat based on that hull, well maybe someday Soto Acerbal will do it:).









 
#1,230 ·
New boat, this one is a deck saloon and one of the best to circumnavigate (or to travel extensively) with all the luxury, washing machine and all.

It is not cheap but probably not much more than an HR of the same size; its the Nordship 43. This boat comes to substitute the old 43. The interior is not much different but the sailing boat potential is. The old one needed a good breeze to really shine, this one will sail remarkably well even in light winds with the help of a geenaker. It is not so heavy and has a remarkably modern underbody. Have a look:











They say about the boat:

"Nordship 430 DS has like its smaller sisters a modern underwater hull with torpedo keel and free standing spade rudder. The rig is changed to a fraction rig and is 75 cm higher than the one on Nordship 43 DS which provide it much more sporty sailing performance than the previous Nordship 43.

The Decks layout is like the Nordship 43 DS, with 2 separate cockpits, a self-tacking jib and all lines lead back to the cockpit, which makes this model ideal to sail single handed.

The windows in the deck-saloon are made in the same design as the ones in the rest of the range. Can also be delivered with doublet glassing.

The interior is kept as in the Nordship 43 DS, but with the possibility of individually solutions. In the First Nordship 430 DS the customer have decided on a large forward cabin and large pantry, at the cost of the side cabin. In a yacht of this size the possibilities are almost endless."

Nordship
 
#1,231 ·
Some interesting information about best average speed on fast cruising boats, the type that is based on the 40class boats. The average regards downwind sailing on the trade winds, the thing these boats were designed to do best:).

The data was picked up by a guy (in a French forum) in Horta, Açores from French sailors that were passing by making transatlantic crossings.

Best 24h:

Opium 39 - 190nm

Cigale 14 - 200nm

But the best average speed comes from a Pogo 10.50 with a very experienced couple aboard (61 et 59 year's old:D): From Portugal to Porto Santo (Madeira, Portugal) with an average speed of 8.2K. Chapeau:cool:

They have an interesting site (French):

Mora Mora
 
#1,232 ·
I have found a nice photo and some interesting comments about it. The photo was taken in the last Round the Island Race and shows the sea conditions. The boat is an Elan 40.



Comments from the guy that had taken the photo:

"Was a slightly scary moment - they held that wave for ages, enough time for us to notice and get the camera out! They came from about 200 yards back and nearly wound up in our cockpit! I've never seen such a heavy boat surf like that before!

And what you can't see is that there was another boat on the same wave! Sadly the only photo of both of them is very out of focus."

Comments from a guy on the Elan 40:

We were on this boat in question - an Elan 40. Conditions were testing - the wind had already put a tear into our mainsail down the leach line. This was a huge swell that kept on going of St Catherines Point that came out of nowhere. It was just as fun/hairy/exciting as it looks! Speed jumped from 8 knots to 16.9 knots.
 
#1,233 ·
First photos of the CR 380DS. Not yet finished but almost. It looks great on the outside, remarkably elegant for a 38ft Deck saloon and with a oak interior. The galley seems very good for a 38ft.

This is going to be a fast boat. The boat is light (6800kg), has a lot of sail area (78m2) and has more 200kg of ballast than an Beneteau oceanis 43...and this is only a 38ft. The hull is very modern, designed by Stephen Jones, narrow but with the beam brought back.





 
#1,234 ·
THere are two new Jeanneau's coming online, a 42DS out of the 439 hull, and a 509? may need to go relook at my source. I am recalling another size too! Been out of town the last 5 days on the boat. Saw the new ones with limited access. Will figure out in the next day or so now that I am home with links.

The king/summit 40 was that builder/designers boat for the NY YC clubs bid for a new 1D boat for their owners etc. The Swan Club 42 was who won the bid. Not sure WHERE this fell in the overall scheme of what NYYC choose for a club boat. Not sure off the top of my head what the other builder/designers were bidding on that min order of 50 boats, ie first 50 went to club members, had to be under 500K US$ base.

Marty
 
#1,235 ·
Thanks Marty. Did not hear nothing about a new 42 DS. Keep us posted;)

Bad news, it seems that the last posts including a big one about the nominated boats for the European boat of the year contest and some replies (bb74) and some more posts were lost:(

While I gather patience to put that post up again, stay with some really big sailboats:







http://www.lobanov.co.uk/#

And some more "normal" ones, but not less interesting;)





 
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