SailNet Community - Reply to Topic

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Production Boats and the Limits
 Not a Member? 


Thread: Production Boats and the Limits Reply to Thread
Title:
  

By choosing to post the reply below you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Topic Review (Newest First)
1 Minute Ago 01:10 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, I'd say asserting that "virtually the entire leisure yachting industry" has ruled in favor of such rigs might be just a BIT of a stretch... :-)

Catalina, Tartan, Island Packet, Hylas, Hallberg-Rassy are just a few that come to mind of the builders today who have stuck with rigs that are not even remotely close to being as 'radical' as the B&R, or feature the extreme sweep shown on that Beneteau Oceanis...

And, I think it's really stretching it for the sake of argument, to try to categorize the spreaders on this Oyster you've pictured earlier as anything approximating being "deeply raked aft", as that boom could still be eased out to being reasonably close to perpendicular to the centerline...

:-)


Okay - then I suppose we're getting down to the number of degrees now. Here's the new HR 412:

15 Minutes Ago 12:57 PM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, if you're actually gonna go places, sometimes that's required... Pretty much the nature of the delivery business, after all...
This is a discussion about cruising boats..cruising. As shown by your example, deliveries are a completely different ball of wax - much more akin to racing.

So let's keep things in context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Well, if you're actually gonna go places, sometimes that's required... Pretty much the nature of the delivery business, after all... But I had the utmost confidence in the boat, and my crew, one of the best sailors I've ever had the pleasure to travel with... Turned out it was good we left when we did, as we got around Hatteras early the next evening, and had a beautiful sail across to Charleston, sneaking in there just before another big low developed off the SE coast...

We were actually scheduled to depart right after Thanksgiving weekend. But, problem after problem continued to arise with various 'systems' aboard, gotta love the complexity of those CRUISING WORLD "Best Full-Size Cruiser" BOTY Winners :-) and then there was a further delay, waiting for the Leisure-Furl motor to be shipped back from Germany after a repair...

Naturally, one of the final chores before catching the flight back home from Lauderdale for Christmas after the trip, was taking the L-F motor over to FedEx, to once again be shipped back to Germany...

:-)

That Trintella has a self-tacking jib, which is pretty useless when sailing deep. It would have to have been poled out, but the pole on that boat was way oversized for the self-tacker, configured for a i35% reacher or spinnaker, instead... Moot point anyway that night, no one was going forward to attempt to rig it, with freezing spray, and ice forming on deck...

yeah, I supposed we could have dropped the main, and motored DDW on thru the night... But then, I'd be too embarrassed to tell the tale... :-)
So, first, you hammer your client's boat quality, then you say you were willing to risk damage to the boat because you would have been embarrassed to motor in 50 knots? Nice.
19 Minutes Ago 12:53 PM
hellsop
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
So while we argue about the disadvantages of swept back spreaders....

What ARE the advantages?
The swept spreaders mean you end up with the shrouds sloping sternward to the deck instead of being in line with the mast, and you end up not needing a backstay. Which means you can use a roach and end up with rather more mainsail than your height would otherwise allow.
50 Minutes Ago 12:21 PM
SVAuspicious
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don0190 View Post
A BIG advantage of my current B&R rig with a shorter mast, longer boom, large mainsail, and a fraction 110% headsail over my last boat's conventional 39' is MUCH less weather helm.
Shorter mast, longer boom, mainsail size, and fractional headsail are completely independent of a B&R rig and so aren't relevant to a discussion of the pros and cons of that rig.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
That's an excellent point that many appear to underestimate. Again, I don't know how anyone goes cruising without a downwind pole...
Agreed. I can't imagine cruising without a spinnaker pole. A whisker pole might be an nice addition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
B&R tally:

-Lighter weight aloft is always desirable. (they say stronger & lighter, but you can't have both, they're the same here and depend on the safety factors in your formula) +1
You can have both. You get that with carbon fiber. You also get that with a lighter, smaller section mast and more rigging. More money in rigging, less in the mast - total is cheaper, lighter, and strong (I'm not convinced of stronger - it is strong enough). Unfortunately that means you pay more for rigging as most of us don't replace the mast often. Add in-mast furling and the mast costs go back up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
-The ability to make a lighter hull may be desirable, or not +0/+1
Offshore, probably not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
-Decreased costs to produce +1 (if you're buying new)
Lets not confuse cost with price. The savings are likely to go to the manufacturer, not to the buyer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
-Large roachy main is usually desirable +1
Right, unless you have an in-mast furling main.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
-Increased costs to maintain. -1
-More difficult to tune and inspect. -1
-Can't sail as deep DDW. -1
-Increased headstay sag and no ability to tension. -2 (surprised nobody is jumping all over this one)
All true

Quote:
Originally Posted by MedSailor View Post
-No ability to control main through mast bend. -1
On cruising boats with big masts this isn't true. You can move the masthead fore and aft but aren't going to bend beyond the pre-bend. -0

For cruising boats add increased difficulty of rigging an SSB antenna.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Our backstay is Dyneema, with a lifting 'whip' to clear our roachy main in light air tacks and gybes. This option/setup is not really available to a rig with in-line spreaders.. the momentary loss of backstay tension would be fatal.
Those whips are great on smaller boats. As you say, getting a big roach through the backstay can be an issue on many boats unless you have something. Whips work. Taller masts work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
At the end of the day we're all going to have our own prejudices, preferences, techniques, but we're all 'out there' doing it, usually without catastrophe.. and that's just fine, isn't it?
True enough. Unfortunately the other factor is that some people are very defensive about their boats. I suggest that we should be realistic that nothing is perfect. I can list the deficiencies of all my boats, cars, trucks, motorcycles, and houses. I have a few personal deficiencies as well. *grin* We should be honest about such things.
52 Minutes Ago 12:20 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
So, I certainly feel no need to defend the choices of virtually the entire leisure yachting industry to those traditionalists who don't like those choices.
Well, I'd say asserting that "virtually the entire leisure yachting industry" has ruled in favor of such rigs might be just a BIT of a stretch... :-)

Catalina, Tartan, Island Packet, Hylas, Hallberg-Rassy are just a few that come to mind of the builders today who have stuck with rigs that are not even remotely close to being as 'radical' as the B&R, or feature the extreme sweep shown on that Beneteau Oceanis...

And, I think it's really stretching it for the sake of argument, to try to categorize the spreaders on this Oyster you've pictured earlier as anything approximating being "deeply raked aft", as that boom could still be eased out to being reasonably close to perpendicular to the centerline...

:-)


1 Hour Ago 11:51 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Well, you did intentionally sail into a difficult situation. So there's that.
Well, if you're actually gonna go places, sometimes that's required... Pretty much the nature of the delivery business, after all... But I had the utmost confidence in the boat, and my crew, one of the best sailors I've ever had the pleasure to travel with... Turned out it was good we left when we did, as we got around Hatteras early the next evening, and had a beautiful sail across to Charleston, sneaking in there just before another big low developed off the SE coast...

We were actually scheduled to depart right after Thanksgiving weekend. But, problem after problem continued to arise with various 'systems' aboard, gotta love the complexity of those CRUISING WORLD "Best Full-Size Cruiser" BOTY Winners :-) and then there was a further delay, waiting for the Leisure-Furl motor to be shipped back from Germany after a repair...

Naturally, one of the final chores before catching the flight back home from Lauderdale for Christmas after the trip, was taking the L-F motor over to FedEx, to once again be shipped back to Germany...

:-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Apart from that, if you were having that kind of trouble spinning out due to the over-trimmed main, why didn't you douse the main and just use some headsail and the motor?
That Trintella has a self-tacking jib, which is pretty useless when sailing deep. It would have to have been poled out, but the pole on that boat was way oversized for the self-tacker, configured for a i35% reacher or spinnaker, instead... Moot point anyway that night, no one was going forward to attempt to rig it, with freezing spray, and ice forming on deck...

yeah, I supposed we could have dropped the main, and motored DDW on thru the night... But then, I'd be too embarrassed to tell the tale... :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
I'm not seeing how this is all the fault of the spreaders.
Well, then perhaps you need a little geometry lesson... :-)

Based on my experience, I have little doubt that had we been able to ease the main to near perpendicular, those conditions would have been FAR easier to manage...

I could be wrong, of course... :-) But that's what my gut tells me...
1 Hour Ago 11:50 AM
weinie
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
Our boat has a 'hunter-esque' swept spreader configuration. We still have a backstay. On those rare occasions that we spend a lot of time DDW I do worry about the pressure on the main and will choose an alternate course if it's reasonable to do so.

Our backstay is Dyneema, with a lifting 'whip' to clear our roachy main in light air tacks and gybes. This option/setup is not really available to a rig with in-line spreaders.. the momentary loss of backstay tension would be fatal.

I can easily envision the issues Jon faced in a serious blow downwind with such a rig.. and we have experiences a milder version ourselves.

At the end of the day we're all going to have our own prejudices, preferences, techniques, but we're all 'out there' doing it, usually without catastrophe.. and that's just fine, isn't it?

btw.. wienie.. congrats and all. I hadn't realized that Jeanneau had gone the backstay-less route with the '9' series....
Thanks! The backstay is an option...but kinda pointless IMHO. Btw, did I miss the deep vs shoal keel debate yet 'cause I was really torn on that one.
1 Hour Ago 11:46 AM
smackdaddy
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
At the end of the day we're all going to have our own prejudices, preferences, techniques, but we're all 'out there' doing it, usually without catastrophe.. and that's just fine, isn't it?
It's certainly fine with me.

Some just seem to think we're all out there doing it...wrong.
1 Hour Ago 11:42 AM
Faster
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Our boat has a 'hunter-esque' swept spreader configuration. We still have a backstay. On those rare occasions that we spend a lot of time DDW I do worry about the pressure on the main and will choose an alternate course if it's reasonable to do so.

Our backstay is Dyneema, with a lifting 'whip' to clear our roachy main in light air tacks and gybes. This option/setup is not really available to a rig with in-line spreaders.. the momentary loss of backstay tension would be fatal.

I can easily envision the issues Jon faced in a serious blow downwind with such a rig.. and we have experiences a milder version ourselves.

At the end of the day we're all going to have our own prejudices, preferences, techniques, but we're all 'out there' doing it, usually without catastrophe.. and that's just fine, isn't it?

btw.. wienie.. congrats and all. I hadn't realized that Jeanneau had gone the backstay-less route with the '9' series....
1 Hour Ago 11:28 AM
weinie
Re: Production Boats and the Limits

Quote:
Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Bingo.
If your main cruising grounds are places like long island sound, 3/4 the time you are beating into the wind or on reaches. Very rarely have I found the need to go DDW. Maybe in the trades, but not up here.

Racing non-spin to the leeward mark is one thing, but I almost never use my whisker pole for daily cruising. My aspin on the other hand got used often this year. For one thing, DDW just FEELS slower, especially on a hot summer day when the goal is not necessarily to get to any destination in particular.

FYI, I just traded in my catalina 27 for the jeanneau 349 with no backstay and swept back spreaders. One of the options, though I did not order it, is a square top mainsail with about 15% more surface area....obviously not possible with a backstay.
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:12 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.