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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Destinations > Chesapeake / Central US east coast > Chesapeake Bay > Cameras on the Chesapeake
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Thread: Cameras on the Chesapeake Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-21-2011 01:26 PM
PalmettoSailor
Quote:
Originally Posted by WouldaShoulda View Post
Having my picture taken in open water where I have no reasonable expectation of privacy whatsoever constitutes the the surrender real personal freedom??

That's more Drama Queen then Kabuki Theater in my book!!



If we stick to a cost/benefit analysis however, that would be a more productive conversation.
No, I never said that, and have no issue with the DNR using radar and camera's to catch poachers on the Bay.

The thread took a hard turn to an arguably political discussion re: terrorists,9/11, the boogey man and TSA vice DNR and poachers which is why, I'm bowing out.
07-21-2011 10:35 AM
WouldaShoulda
Quote:
Originally Posted by midlifesailor View Post
Dave its not a hypothetical when we surrender real personal freedom in the name of security kabuki theater.
Having my picture taken in open water where I have no reasonable expectation of privacy whatsoever constitutes the the surrender real personal freedom??

That's more Drama Queen then Kabuki Theater in my book!!



If we stick to a cost/benefit analysis however, that would be a more productive conversation.
07-21-2011 08:37 AM
Minnewaska I am fine with the cameras. They are an effective, low impact deterrent. You can't release the images, otherwise, the bad guys can better understand how to avoid them.

The old adage is, "there are no atheists in a foxhole", which I know first hand is true. Every inexperienced chest pounder I've ever known, who has faced an enemy up close and personal, has change their tune.

edit: yes, some measures can be done better and without the theater.
07-21-2011 07:06 AM
PalmettoSailor
Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
OK...I agree about TSA acts like all govt agencies...they all want bigger fiefdoms...its our job to keep them in check. Point to me in the Constitution where it says you have the inalienable right gaurenteed to fly in an airplane.

Lets talk reality though not just hypotheticals...whens the last time TSA ran 3 jets into buildings and killed 3000 people. Whens the last time TSA exploded a bomb on a school bus and killed 56 children. Whens the last time a TSA mid level manager constructed a bomb...loaded it into a truck...drove it outside a hotel and detonated it killed 50..or pulled it next to a Marine barracks and killed 600 like in Lebonan. I am sure some of the TSA p[eople have groped people...have built fiefdoms, but when is the last time a TSA employee or mid level manager hijacked an airplane or blew it up over Lockerbie.

Arguing in hypotheticals is good intellectual excercise, but thank god some deal with the cold hard realities of the situations we face as Americans.

There are poeple who hate us and want to kill us just because we are Americans...period. They are willing to die...martyr themselves for what they beleive in just to get their point across. That is a whole different type of indivigula...they dont talk...they dont want to hear what you have to say...they want to kill you....just because you are an American. Period. If they gain control or are allowed to you dont ever have to worry about flying in an airplane again. In fact you wont even be able to protest what they do...you will be stoned or summarilly executed. These are the realities of the world we live in outside the protected reaches of our borders. These are not hypothetical intellectual arguments...but are the true realities of the world.

Funny I am a true liberal when it comes to almost all social programs, health care, right of freedom of speech etx....but when it comes to the defense of our country, our homeland and our way of life I say protect it protect it protect it ot there will be no country to have freedom of speech in.

Dave
Dave its not a hypothetical when we surrender real personal freedom in the name of security kabuki theater.

That's enough on this thread, as this should be in some other forum that I never go to.
07-20-2011 10:22 PM
chef2sail OK...I agree about TSA acts like all govt agencies...they all want bigger fiefdoms...its our job to keep them in check. Point to me in the Constitution where it says you have the inalienable right gaurenteed to fly in an airplane.

Lets talk reality though not just hypotheticals...whens the last time TSA ran 3 jets into buildings and killed 3000 people. Whens the last time TSA exploded a bomb on a school bus and killed 56 children. Whens the last time a TSA mid level manager constructed a bomb...loaded it into a truck...drove it outside a hotel and detonated it killed 50..or pulled it next to a Marine barracks and killed 600 like in Lebonan. I am sure some of the TSA p[eople have groped people...have built fiefdoms, but when is the last time a TSA employee or mid level manager hijacked an airplane or blew it up over Lockerbie.

Arguing in hypotheticals is good intellectual excercise, but thank god some deal with the cold hard realities of the situations we face as Americans.

There are poeple who hate us and want to kill us just because we are Americans...period. They are willing to die...martyr themselves for what they beleive in just to get their point across. That is a whole different type of indivigula...they dont talk...they dont want to hear what you have to say...they want to kill you....just because you are an American. Period. If they gain control or are allowed to you dont ever have to worry about flying in an airplane again. In fact you wont even be able to protest what they do...you will be stoned or summarilly executed. These are the realities of the world we live in outside the protected reaches of our borders. These are not hypothetical intellectual arguments...but are the true realities of the world.

Funny I am a true liberal when it comes to almost all social programs, health care, right of freedom of speech etx....but when it comes to the defense of our country, our homeland and our way of life I say protect it protect it protect it ot there will be no country to have freedom of speech in.

Dave
07-20-2011 07:35 PM
PalmettoSailor
Quote:
Originally Posted by WouldaShoulda View Post
1. That's just silly

2. I agree.
Really? How can you agree with the second point and not see the reality of the first point. TSA would very much like to expand their actvities further and further into your daily life. I'm far more concerned with the reality ever expanding government intrusion in my life than I am about the threat of a terrorist attack.
07-20-2011 03:56 PM
WouldaShoulda
Quote:
Originally Posted by midlifesailor View Post
TSA/DHS is a far more serious threat to the American way of life than any terrorist.

Mid level managers in TSA only want to cover their a$$, increase their power and avoid accountablity and, as I type this, I can assure you their leaders are seeking creative ways to find other venues to expand their fiefdoms and "make us more secure".
1. That's just silly

2. I agree.
07-20-2011 02:39 PM
PalmettoSailor Chef and Wing,

I have to disagree with you on this one. I believe that citizens absolutely have the right to travel, including by air, without government intimidation which is about the the TSA amounts to. I work in aviation and have interaction with the TSA and base my opinon on what I have personally heard and observed. I have interacted with TSA from the screener to very near the highest levels, and based on that experience its my contention that the TSA/DHS is a far more serious threat to the American way of life than any terrorist.

TSA is security kabuki theater at its finest. Mid level managers in TSA only want to cover their a$$, increase their power and avoid accountablity and, as I type this, I can assure you their leaders are seeking creative ways to find other venues to expand their fiefdoms and "make us more secure". Thus far, not even Congress can real them in.

I for one, prefer real freedom over "fake" security, heck I prefer real freedom over "real" security as if there were such a thing.

To be secure all we have to do is surrender and place ourselves in our cages willingly. I won't quote the obvious historical reference.
07-18-2011 10:41 PM
kb3pwc
Dave's words sum it up...WingNWing has it right.

Having had the first plane fly over my head, questioning why it sounded so loud, and then hear it hit the first Tower, hours later meet folks walking away in a daze, covered with Trade Center dust on the streets of Manhattan, my thanks to Dave for explaining reality so well.

Sadly, our world is not what we may have enjoyed in the 50's and 60's. Wish we could "un-ring that bell" but that is no longer reality. I go through airports ever week and do the drill. I have nothing to hide and patience for the effort. Is it perfect???..no but what can you do but your best.

Leslie

S/V Tango, CR 34
Lankford Bay Marina
07-18-2011 09:48 PM
wingNwing
Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
You gotta be kidding. Thats a very smug cavalier statement and cannot go unchallenged, even in this thread You must not have had very much contact with real terrorism. Guess you didnt loose anyone in 9/11 like I did or you havent seen childrens limbs hanging from street signs after a Hamas/ Hezbullah school bus bombing in Isreal like I have. You werent in England obviously when the subways were attacked. The cameras there prevented other terrorist attacks from being carried out.

I work in US Capitol building itself, the target of the third hijacked plane which was knocked down by heroic Americans in Schwenksville, Pa. I am glad they search everyone who comes in the building carefully. I am glad the sharpshooters are p;ositioned on the roof. I am glad they take security seriously. The collection of knives, guns and weapons they have confiscated is unbeleivable. People circling the building have been caught with weapons.

I prefer everyone is searched...thoroughly...just like El Al does it. If you dont want to be searched that way..guess what you have the option to walk, drive or take a slow boat. It is not your cival right to fly...nor is it protected by the Constitution. I dont want to be endangered by your carelessless or lack or understanding the gravity of the terrorists motives. 3 planes killed over 3000 people, My friend is a United pilot. I dont want him endangered by lack of adequate security. Its not will they use planes or the airways.... they already have.

Have you ever sailed close to the big cruise ship which departs Baltimore every Sunday evening at 5 and makes its way down the Chesapeake? Get too close and the MP or CG come out and "threaten" you away with armed vessels. Why you ask.....big terrorist target. Imagine destroying one of these vessels under the Key or Chesapeake Bay bridge, the loss of life and blowing up the bridge as well as blocking the shipping channel. They caught men with cameras 1 years ago scoping out the bridge to destroy it. If that means their are cameras,,,,so be it. Thank goodness someone takes the threat seriously.

Terrorists are real....and they are our enemy and they truly are the real enemy, not our government. They want to kill us just because we beleive in the AMERICAN way or are Americans.. Thats the only reason. Our governement is far from perfect and we have the right and the neccessity to be protected from it. Terrorists are part of our lives inn America now...just like they have been part of the lives of those in Isreal and Europe for decades. Get used to it and help prevent terrorists from killing more innocent Americans.

Dave
Yeah. What he said.
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