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Would You?

7K views 42 replies 30 participants last post by  davidpm 
#1 · (Edited)
We are just east of Glen Cove NY, traveling West at about 6+ knots at night.

I had just taken the helm and was following the course the captain had set.
I'm primarily watching for traffic of course there is not much else to do as the autopilot was on.
I'm thinking I should check the GPS just to make sure. Just then I see G"21" and I'm thinking that sometimes they put the buoy's up because something bad is nearby.

I checked the GPS and immediately make a course correction to pass the buoy on my port. The captain said that he wasn't worried because those rock symbles were about rocks really deep. We draw 6 feet.
I was not so sure.
On the chart below, the red course line goes right through the symbol Rk. The way I read it when it says Rk with no depth it means it could be a problem.
I my defense my GPS shows even less information and only shows the danger area just above the line with no depth and the RK with no other info and the blue area below the line with no depth so I thought I had to dodge three things not just one. I notice that the GPS even on highest resolution leaves out some information that is on the chart
But maybe I'm just being too cautious.
What do you think?
 

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#2 · (Edited)
But maybe I'm just being too cautious.
What do you think?
I think you can never be too cautious - especially at night.

With a rough sea or an especially low tide you could hit something easily enough, and rocks and boulders are not something you ever want to hit in a keelboat. From the excerpt you've shown it would seem that the light on G'21' is there for a reason - to tell people not to cut the corner. ;)
 
#4 ·
Although electronic charts can have a lot details in a small memory compared to raster charts, unfortunately the vector charts are less informant than raster charts. Therefore it is never a good idea to rely on the maps of digital instruments.

Up to date raster charts or paper charts are the ones to be used.
 
#5 ·
That is a big ship marker marking Matinecook Pt and going outside it is good seamanship. A court of inquiry would define going inside negligence if a serious accident occurred.

Cutting corners at night without local knowledge sinks boats!

It is also bad seamanship to assume that charts and chart plotters are 100% accurate. The mark 1 eyeball is much more reliable.

The rocky bottom was deep but if those soundings are in feet and you had crossed that 10ft mark in any kind of waves you might have bounced the keel through the hull.

Phil
 
#6 ·
Going outside the ATN would have been cautious, not cutting the corner through a rocky point. Looks like it would have been a one min diversion. The RK and Rky notations indicate bottom composition. I've certainly seen my fair share of uncharted obstructions that could take out a 6 ft keel. They are most often in more desolate sailing grounds or places one would think a skipper would avoid anyway, like this one.
 
#7 ·
Most GPS units have astatement when they are turned on that says...

... not to rely on one source of information. Depending on the unit, many are short on detail, and often locations are wrong.

Off course, I've seen mistakes on paper charts too. An old edition of a popular chart book for the Chesapeake had an entire sheet misnumberd by 1 minute!

Floating markers get moved off station by storms, often by hundreds of yards.

Just a few things to think about. I think everyone would agree that going inside that mark at night was silly, all things considered.
 
#8 ·
If you sail full time like we do you see 2-3 boats a year on the rocks because of cutting corners at night. Last one was 4 weeks ago in Bonaire. The boat had crossed the Atlantic safely but she sank while being towed off after spending the night on the reef.

Phil
 
#9 · (Edited)
is may cause some argument, but;

If you are sure it is well charted. The course is fine. If unsure - give a wide berth.

I sailed in places where the paper chart says "first charted by Capt ? in HMAS Rattlesnake, 1878 and aerial recon 1944." I then take into consideration wg84 (gps) is a bit different and reefs grow. => give it a wide berth. eg the crocodile islands above arnhem land NT. AUST. They are at least 2nm off the real position. I saw a reef which was not on the chart and therefore not on the plotter at least 15nm away from the nearest plotted reef. Ships dont go there so it is not re-surveyed. Another eg is the Louisiades.

Sailing in the USA where the GPS satellites were invented for (!) should be OK.

You are sailing in a yacht and must minimize, but make your decision and accept the risks involved. That is the way it is.
 
#10 ·
I don't think there is an issue with the course going thru "Rk" when your yacht draws 6ft. We have some similar rocks near my marina which are about 5m (16ft) down when the surrounding water is 7-10m deep. These rocks are actually marked as a "reef".

However in the circumstances you described I would of done exactly the same. At night in an unfamiliar area I would of altered course as well. If it was daylight and I was familiar with the area I may of cut the corner.

Ilenart
 
#12 ·
Not too cautious at all. Have passed down LIS many times and never cut the buoys. Jeppesen shows only 9' on that shallow spot. It would be crazy to try clearing over it to gain a few minutes. There are also some weird currents around the points that are not worth dealing with. If you time the current right, staying mid-Sound is always a better idea. The only time I'd even consider cutting inside buoys is if I had personal knowledge of the area. A couple of years ago I hit bottom and did some damage while IN the channel on Lake Champlain. Was too close for the low water condition and should have been another 100 yards off to be safe. The lesson: Don't only stay in the marked channel but give the buoys plenty of room.
 
#17 ·
Yep. The "Rk" refers to the condition of the bottom, not a big ol' rock sticking up.

However, a slight detour to the outside of that mark would cost you no more than a few minutes sailing time. Also, being outside of the mark would give you more room (and time) to deal with any problems; particularly if you had an equipment failure, or traffic to deal with (you might not have been the only vessel cutting it tight around that point that night), or whatever, at just the wrong moment.

Giving yourself a bit more margin for error is always prudent.
 
#14 ·
Two things

1) The buoy is there for a reason, primarily commercial shipping with deeper drafts

2) Prudent passage planning requires that buoys and other aids to navigation should be identified in advance of departure. There should be no surprises.

I would leave it to port.
 
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#15 · (Edited)
Instincts can be quite valuable on a sailboat especially at night. If your looking at rocks on a chart and wondering then you already have the answer. The world is probably full of corners sailboats could cut, and rocks/reefs you could pass inside of, However I have always been content to be the boat that is that extra 1/2 hour later getting into the anchorage.
 
#16 ·
David, Don't think about it twice, you did right!
Am familiar with Matinecock Pt. green 21...I know I can cut it
with my 4 1/2' draft, I don't and never have.
I try to develop and stick to good habits and that serves me well,
as bad habits or short cuts eventually will catch up with one.
Your captain, it would seem was familiar and comfortable with the
course...you were not.
If a helmsman, who I trust with the well being of the crew and the
boat does not have the time to consult with me and
chooses to error on the side of caution...I say thank you.
Hugo
 
#18 ·
Taking the owner's position may not be popular, but if he draws 6' and he know it, and the chart shows 10', and he knows that, and then you add possibly 8' of tide, (we don't know what the tide was doing, but assume the owner knew at the time) giving you 18' of water depth for a 6' draft... there are some channels shallower than that. Asking about observing the buoy was the right thing to do, but the skipper seems to have already worked out the equation.
 
#21 · (Edited)
A "Rk" symbol without anything special near it refers to the nature of the bottom. A "Rk" symbol next to a blue circle indicates an individual rock or rocky projection off of the surrounding substrate. Now that I look at it a bit more closely, one "Rk" with the red line going through it is the former, while the other appears to be the latter. However, in the case of the later the course doesn't go right through the indicted position of the rock(s), and the rock(s) should be several feet below the keel (10' depth vs a 6' draft). Still, I would have opted to take the mark to port, as the distances appear to be pretty tight in any case.
 
#22 · (Edited)
In my defense the hand held chart plotter I have only showed the dotted circles and no numbers inside. I had no way of knowing the depth. I also had just started my shift and was a little groggy and surprised to see the bouy.
Like folks have said with the real chart the capt had apparently figured correctly that there was no problem. I had only seconds so changed course, better safe than sorry.
It woke me up quick thats for sure
 
#23 ·
#24 ·
David--

The snip-it of chart you show does not convey enough information. A larger look is more informative (below). All of LI Sound is to the north of that mark and largely clear of obstructions. Beyond that, however, is the fact that you apparently did not understand what you were looking at when reading the chart. Moreover, when I am traversing an area that is subject to "big-ship" traffic, and particularly at night, I will not sail in deep-water channels specifically to avoid any interaction with them. I would be very unhappy if a well intended but ill-informed crew made a unilateral decision to alter a laid in course. We have a rule "When in question or in doubt--Wake the Captain, Call him Out!"

It's simple--if you don't know, ask.
 

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#28 ·
David--

The snip-it of chart you show does not convey enough information. A larger look is more informative (below). All of LI Sound is to the north of that mark and largely clear of obstructions. Beyond that, however, is the fact that you apparently did not understand what you were looking at when reading the chart. Moreover, when I am traversing an area that is subject to "big-ship" traffic, and particularly at night, I will not sail in deep-water channels specifically to avoid any interaction with them. I would be very unhappy if a well intended but ill-informed crew made a unilateral decision to alter a laid in course. We have a rule "When in question or in doubt--Wake the Captain, Call him Out!"

It's simple--if you don't know, ask.[/]

I agree completely. In this case however by the time I saw the mark there was time to react and that was all. I knew north was 99 percent safe and south was questionable.

There was almost 0 chance of my turning into traffic. Good thought though.

On a different trip at night sailing fast I blew by a dark buoy mid sound clearing by 15 feet. When I complained to the captain that he didn't warn me, I didn't have my own gps at the time, he claimed it was not on the chart.
20 min later he found it. It was hidden by a coffee stain.

The point is that if you are at the helm it is pretty much your fault if you hit something even if you have help.
 
#25 ·
+1 to everything above about being cautious, particularly at night in unfamiliar water. I think Minnewaska makes a good point also that what you see on he chart as Rk, rks, or Rky refers to bottom composition and not protruding obstacles. That said I draw 5 feet and wouldn't cut the corner in unfamiliar water day or night. You never know when you will happen upon an old ski boat that someone dumped there or a pile of concrete that found its way out there.
 
#26 ·
While you did not have the paper chart, a closer look at the Chart No. 1 would be a very good idea. The key is the typeface. The italic "rk" in that particualr typeface is an indication of the bottom, useful for anchoring. It has nothing to do with depth. The buoy is there to mark a safe passage, but your draft (and the height of tide) are huge variables and it is often safe (and often unsafe) to pass on the other side of the buoy. By the way, given your location the captain sould have mentioned the buoy. They make a loud clang when you hit them.
 
#29 ·
If you are given sole control over the helm, you have both the authority and responsibility to course correct to keep the vessel and crew safe. A Captain should never entrust the helm to any singlehander that didn't qualify to have this authority.

P.S. The OP proved they did qualify in my book.
 
#30 ·
Any change of shift should come with a status report from the previous shift that would include: weather, traffic, navigation and any standing watch orders. Barring that, your shift, your call. You made the call to alter course a few hundred yards, at most, to avoid a questionable in your mind hazard. Those greens are off every " point" on that dark shoreline...no harm, no foul. Could you have cut the corner safely..probably. But by leaving it to port, you made the safest choice.

When I left Port Jeff, this July headed west toward the East River, we were in patchy fog most of the way. Those greens are critical nav aids. Last year in the chesapeake, I watched someone run aground trying to cut the corner at Bloody Point..
 
#32 ·
Any change of shift should come with a status report from the previous shift that would include: weather, traffic, navigation and any standing watch orders. Barring that, your shift, your call.
This is the main lesson I believe.
The only harm done was to my blood pressure.

Next time I'll ask some questions when coming on shift.
In the captains defense he was below working on stuff and was watching the GPS too so he was not worried.
 
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