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Co2 PFDs are allowed on board aircraft because

6K views 33 replies 12 participants last post by  sailingdog 
#1 ·
While no one can predict what the TSA will do here in the US...if anyone is flying with an inflateable PFD and the nice man gets all upset at your CO2 cylinders, you may want to refer them to:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=b6d103fe0351c1ebd98b3eafa5afe
abc&rgn=div8&view=text&node=49:2.1.1.3.10.1.25.4&idno=49

Which is the online reference to:

Title 49 CFR (Code of Federal Regulations) section 175.10
aka "49 CFR 175.10 (25)"

"Exceptions:

(25) With approval of the aircraft operator, a passenger or crew member may carry in checked or carry-on baggage no more than two small gas cartridges containing no hazardous material other than a Division 2.2 gas that are fitted into a self-inflating life-jacket for inflation purposes, plus no more than two spare cartridges."

Yes, there are specific laws allowing the carriage of those small CO2 bottles on the aircraft. On an "overwater" flight the airline has already consented to them being brought onboard, as every Switlik life vest under every seat already has two installed.

International travelers may want to dig up their own national codes, but these are also referenced generically as "UN Category 2" exempted items, for the same purpose, in the model regulations that most UN member states have adopted.

(Current as of 30 August 2006)
 
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#2 ·
Hellosailor- Unfortunately, the key words to this are: With approval of the aircraft operator

In many cases, the airlines do not have a clear policy on what they will and won't allow.
 
#3 ·
"In many cases, the airlines do not have"

Agreed. But, as I said, the airlines have already agreed to this. They can't waive the US code arbitrarily and on the spur of the moment, and the fact that they have ALREADY DEPLOYED SEVERAL HUNDRED ON BOARD indicates they have already specifically consented to this.

If you don't mind shutting down an airport for the day, you can always agree with the nice TSA man (if he doesn't allow the cartridge) and then do your best to be helpful, i.e. very carefully say "Oh, by the way, there's a couple of hundred of these onboard the aircraft already, if that's a problem maybe you should shut 'em all down until you can straighten it out?"

Thoreau would be proud.
 
#4 ·
hellosailor said:
"In many cases, the airlines do not have"

Agreed. But, as I said, the airlines have already agreed to this. They can't waive the US code arbitrarily and on the spur of the moment, and the fact that they have ALREADY DEPLOYED SEVERAL HUNDRED ON BOARD indicates they have already specifically consented to this.

If you don't mind shutting down an airport for the day, you can always agree with the nice TSA man (if he doesn't allow the cartridge) and then do your best to be helpful, i.e. very carefully say "Oh, by the way, there's a couple of hundred of these onboard the aircraft already, if that's a problem maybe you should shut 'em all down until you can straighten it out?"

Thoreau would be proud.
Unfortunately, most TSA personnel I've run into are just about dumb enough to try doing that... :D
 
#5 ·
Yup. That's why citing them with "49 CFRR 175.10 (25) These are UN Category 2 exempted lifesaving equipment" is probably enough to stun them into submission and just let you pass. The alternative would mean finding a supervisor and (shudder) looking up a regulation.<G>
 
#6 ·
It happened

We ran across this issue a couple of years ago flying to Guadeloupe (Air Canada). The Mustang crew-fit's CO2 cylinder caught the attention of the Xray operator at security, as we were travelling with carry-on only. Had we been CoastGuard, or a licenced captain or crew, it would have been OK. So he said. Long story short we took a walk to a higher up who dithered and finally said, can't have it - it could blow up and start a fire (CO2!!) At which point it was pointed out to her that, in fact CO2 is in fire extinguishers - at which point she put her foot down and rejected it. This left us to mail the (expensive) collar back home to ourselves.

Of course, during the subsequent safety video it became clear there were approximately 300 or more of these "explosive" CO2 cartridges under all our seats, all we could do is shake our heads and laugh.

The collar did arrive safely home by mail.
 
#7 ·
Any current updates on boarding aircraft with CO2 cartriges? I'll be flying out in march to Cancun for a crossing to Miami. Just checking to see what the current TSA is saying about this. I searched the TSA list and cant find anything that relates to CO2 PFD devices. Thanks
 
#8 ·
FYI here is the updated Canada guide through the TSB. If you find the applicable US list print it out and take it with you..that helped me once in Miami on Air Canada.

http://www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca/english/travel_voyage/list.shtml

It clearly states as an exception under sporting goods:

Carbon dioxide (CO2) cylinders or cartridges (except those required for medical purposes; those to be used for aircraft maintenance or for aerodrome maintenance or construction; or those used for self-inflating life-jackets).
No No
CO2 cylinders for self-inflating life-jacket

Note: No more than two small CO2 cylinders or two cylinders of other suitable non-inflammable, non-poisonous gas when fitted into a self-inflating life-jacket for inflation purposes, plus no more than two spare cartridges per passenger.
 
#9 · (Edited)
When I flew to Utah for a family visit the TSA people at the gates did not know what a 'Z' Card (Mariner's document) was. An ID issued by the USCG for professional mariners. Gesh! and they are protecting us??
Oh Lord! Please protect us from well meaning bureaucrats! Especially those who think that they should be protecting you from yourself.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Talisman-
Yes, rather. I spoke to the TSA help center this summer and they took about 25 minutes to refer me to an FAA online site that says what can and can't be brought on the plane. According to the FAA, who follow the UN conventions, the CO2 bottles in life jackets can be brought in the cabin.
And as I explained to the TSA man, that's nice but that's the FAA, where does the TSA affirm this? He said nowhere, it was up to the airport supervisor at each airport--in their individual discretion and hold on a minute he would connect me to the local (major) airport supervisor. Who said no, absolutely not, it doesn't matter what the FAA or the UN treaties say, he won't allow them on the planes.

Bottom line? The US is obliged by treaty to allow them. The TSA prohibits them by individual discretion, claiming this is a matter of national security that goes beyond international treaty obligations.

So I'm taking the Alice's Restaurant approach: Encourage the TSA staff that their job is too dangerous and they need to resign. Example: Pack a small wheel of cheese or some frozen sausage or salami with your lunch. Apparently either of these has the same appearance as plastic explosive on the xray machine, so your handbag will be manually inspected.

When the nice person says "Do you mind if I open your bag?" SMILE and say "Not at all, I bet you are looking at my lunch. It's so hard to tell the difference between cheese and Semtex these days, isn't it?" And, immediately after they OPEN your bag, SMILE and politely remind them "You know, if that was something bad, you could have tripped a deadman switch and set the cheese off. Don't they teach you guys anything about safety? Or anything about protecting yourselfs from suspicious objects in the bags?"

There's a thin line, make sure you don't cross it and you only express concern for your mutual safety, and sympathy over the difficulties of the job. Which include telling the difference between cheese and Semtex. And various other confusions, like whether you've got a Walkman or a detonator.

They examine plenty of lunches every day, you won't get strip-searched for this. Just remember to smile, co-operate, and sympathize with their plight.

Passive resistance can work. Wear a leather belt, make sure to slow down the entire system as you take it off and put it back on. If we all squeeze the system till it stops working---they'll be forced to change it.

The dog and pony show we have now MUST be stopped, because it is not security, it is a DANGER to us all. And an expensive one, to boot. All that money could be spent on real security issues--like armoring the baggage cubes, as some foreign airlines do.
 
#11 ·
It appears that you are all learning the the new way of travel...what is allowed by law and what is able to get through...Good luck..It really boils down to whether the guy or gal standing in front of you has a clue or not.

It does not matter whether it is CO2 or Lithium Ion battery or any number of other gadgets...the person in front of you is going to decide whether you proceed or not and what you can take with you, regardless of the law, your knowledge, TWIC card, security clearance or any thing else. It matters not to them.

Sad but that is the reality you will encounter when flying, and these are the people who will "help" us see the error of our ways on the water very soon.

ALl the best, and you can talk to anyone you like (FAA, TSA, DHS, Airlines, LEO) it won't matter

dave
been there and done that
 
#12 ·
Here's a link to the currently posted list at tsa.gov.

Please note, that the airlines can prohibit CO2 cartridges, so you need to check with your airline specifically as to what their policy is.

BTW, this is from the sospenders site:

Is it okay to take my inflatable PFD and rearming kits on an airplane?

Effective August 4, 2007, the TSA again permits the CO2 cylinders with an Inflatable PFD through their security checkpoints. The permission process this time went through the White House and Congress. It is expected that this approval will stay in
place much longer due to a much broader approval process. TSA Screeners across the United States have been trained already and are prepared to let these through.
Look under "Disabling Chemicals & Other Dangerous Items" for specifics: http://tinyurl.com/ptxdw

Remember though, it is still each airlines choice whether to allow these on their airplanes and each sets their own policies
(roughly 1/2 allow them and 1/2 don't).

Check with your airline (and connecting or return flights) or their websites to make sure they allow them before you travel.

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/prohibited/permitted-prohibited-items.shtm
 
#14 ·
Please note, that the airlines can prohibit CO2 cartridges, so you need to check with your airline specifically as to what their policy is.
Dog is right. An airline can them self restrict what type of dangerous goods "DG" they are willing to carry. The one I work for do not carry any DG. This is out of my power point presentation for DG awareness training.

  • Two small carbon dioxide cylinders fitted into a self-inflating life jacket plus two spare cartridges.

  • Permitted in carry-on or checked baggage, or on one's person. Approval of the airline is required.

This is for Canada though I would expect it to be the same for the US

Here is a IATA link to what you can carry on board the aircraft.
http://www.iata.org/nr/rdonlyres/79094d3e-53bb-45cf-a61c-e02646d2db0d/0/table_23aenglish_2008.pdf
 
#13 ·
sd, that's a marvelous change form the last time around.

How did it "go through the White House" and to what official paper, site, or executive order (?) can one refer to, so that you've got an official confirmation of this status if some nimrod decides he doesn't want to let it through?
 
#15 ·
HS—

No idea, just that is what the current status is on the TSA prohibited items list. BTW, the CO2 cartridges can be restricted by the airline...even if the federal law permits it, since it is at the air carrier's discretion. You really need to check with your airline.

Unfortunately, the US doesn't go with IATA guidelines, but TSA ones... which have made some pretty stupid decisions in the last couple of years.
 
#17 · (Edited)
TT-
Darned right, the airlines can even prohibit passengers from wearing racy t-shirts. But as they'd found, that tends to lead to bad press and lawsuits. Banning the CO2 cylinders, which are expressly allowed under international accord, could theoreticallly lead to bans on international landings by that carrier, couldn't it?
Not to mention, the fun that follows when someone says "Well, maybe you should ground that flight, because there's 300 more of these already on board the aircraft."

Facism and stupidity need to be stopped, preferably while they are still young and small.
 
#18 ·
#20 · (Edited)
At SeaTac, they damn near shut down the airport because I had forgotten a single PENNY in the bottom of a deep pocket.

Everyplace else...I've been carrying a spare car key in my wallet, and it passes without being noticed. I can't help won't how they know my car key isn't a knife. Well, I KNOW that one already: Dog and Pony Show.

Actually, the way all parties tell it is that the PILOT has the final say about what comes on his aircraft, until and unless his airline personally overrules him/her. What the TSA doesn't want to do, is allow you to pass a question on to the pilot. "I'm transporting my own Mae West, would you mind if it rides in my cabin luggage?" I don't think there's a pilot out there who would say no.
 
#21 ·
Especially since, as someone pointed out, there are a couple hundred very similar items on-board the plane already. :)
Actually, the way all parties tell it is that the PILOT has the final say about what comes on his aircraft, until and unless his airline personally overrules him/her. What the TSA doesn't want to do, is allow you to pass a question on to the pilot. "I'm transporting my own Mae West, would you mind if it rides in my cabin luggage?" I don't think there's a pilot out there who would say no.
 
#24 ·
"If you do, make sure you have someone with you at the airport who can take the PFD home "

sd, they won't stop the PFD--only the CO2 cart, which can be removed and then mailed home. Well, assuming you can still find a post box in the airport, since they are so afraid of bombs being dropped in them.

But it isn't hard to carry a large envelope and some stamps while traveling, even if the postage is insufficient it should get home (or wherever) with a "postage due" notice on it.
 
#25 ·
"If you do, make sure you have someone with you at the airport who can take the PFD home "

sd, they won't stop the PFD--only the CO2 cart, which can be removed and then mailed home. Well, assuming you can still find a post box in the airport, since they are so afraid of bombs being dropped in them.

But it isn't hard to carry a large envelope and some stamps while traveling, even if the postage is insufficient it should get home (or wherever) with a "postage due" notice on it.
That's what we did... but we weren't sure of the availability of CO2 where we were going, so we mailed the whole thing home. But this was a redeye, after midnight so the post office wasn't open. we left the pfd in a large envelope with $20 in it, and a note to mail it all home. Somewhat to our surprise, it was there when we returned, complete with change from the $20!:)
 
#27 ·
I had a gate screening once where they guy had to call a supervisor to see if the carabiner that my keys were attached to my belt with could pass. He stated that it could be used as brass knuckles. I refrained from stating that my cane (I had just got off crutches from knee surgery) would be a far more useful than a carabiner in an altercation.
 
#28 ·
Charlie-

Most of the security people at the airports would have trouble finding their backside if you took a lit flare and stuck it up their rear end, lit it and then put them in a darkened room.

Your story reminds me of one time I went to the airport, pre-9/11, and was carrying a leatherman pocket tool with me. They wouldn't let me take a jewelers screwdriver set aboard the plane, since they were sharp and pointy, but let me keep the leatherman, since it was only a pair of pliers...and relatively harmless. Umm...the leatherman has two 2-1/2" long knife blades in it...one serrated, one very pointy... :eek:
 
#31 ·
Charlie-

carrying a leatherman pocket tool with me. They wouldn't let me take a jewelers screwdriver set aboard the plane, :eek:
That reminds me of a cruise i took on a Disney Boat with my kids. I had my Dive gear with me which included a titanium Dive knife with a 6 inch blade. Also in my dive bag was a leatherman. The Cruise line confiscated the leatherman but left the knife. I guess they we afraid that I would take the boat apart with it.
 
#29 ·
This subject hits a raw nerve with me especially since travel for a living and TSA can treat the aircrews worse than the passengers in some places. To summarize all that is said.
#1 TSA are idiots - True.
#1 TSA IQ´s = less than 80 - True
#3 TSA is always right - True
#4 When TSA is wrong rule #3 is applied

PFD´s are allow to be carried on aircraft. It depends on the airline on whether is is allowed as carry on or check bagage. Always check it so one can to avoid rules #1-4. Always take the CO2 cartidge out of the PFDs´s and wrap them around both the TSA rules and the airlines rules. Laslty always tell the agent you have them in your bag and where it is located. Make it easy to find. Also tell the agent your phone number in case TSA Baggage follows rules #1-4 so they can call you if they have dumb questions to ask. If all else fails put an self address envelope near said cartidges so one can mail it back to self when rules #1-4 apply.
If all else fails see if one can speak to the Capt of the aircraft (like me) where I can tell TSA where to put said item.
Capt Melissa
 
#30 ·
Melrna,
I agree with rules 1 to 4:
It was pre 9/11 in Zurich. I had the smallest Swiss army Victorinox knife attached to my keys (about 2 inches big). They took it away.
Just after that security check there was a duty free store, where they were selling same (and much bigger) knives of the same brand. :confused: :confused: :confused:
In the airplane they served a meal with stainless steel fork and knife (10 times more dangerous then my tiny little 2 inch toy. :confused: :confused: :confused: .

Of course now they do not sell knives after security check any more in Zurich.

To defense the security people: You know and the airline knows there is CO2 inside those 300 cartridges on board the aircraft.
But only you know what is inside your cartridge. The security staff can not tell what is inside unless they open it.
If is it attached to a life west and it says CO2 on it does it mean it really is CO2 ?
And if we are not allowed to take a toothpaste - I can understand they are afraid of a sealed container with unknown content.
And it is easier to get a toothpaste back into tube then CO2 back into the cartridge.
 
#32 ·
I guess, if you were a dedicated fanatic fundamentalist terrorist, you could fill a metal cartridge, like a CO2 cartridge, with VX, Sarin, or some other nasty chemical weapon... and that would be a problem... but doing so would require some pretty good technical skills and facilities... not something you can do in a motel bathroom.

That said... if the TSA and DHS actually spent the time and resources identifying terrorists... and preventing them from getting into the airport, that would obviate the need to do things like banning cigarette lighters, matches, gels, and drinks-which looks good to the public, but really does little to actually add to security. Finally, if the TSA would get its head out of its ass and actually close the boarding pass security hole, it might actually start contributing to the real security of the air travel.

For more info on the boarding pass security loophole, see this article by Bruce Schneier, an renown security expert.

The most relevant passage from Schneier's article is:

You can also use a fake boarding pass to fly on someone else's ticket. The trick is to have two boarding passes: one legitimate, in the name the reservation is under, and another phony one that matches the name on your photo ID. Use the fake boarding pass in your name to get through airport security, and the real ticket in someone else's name to board the plane.

This means that a terrorist on the no-fly list can get on a plane: He buys a ticket in someone else's name, perhaps using a stolen credit card, and uses his own photo ID and a fake ticket to get through airport security. Since the ticket is in an innocent's name, it won't raise a flag on the no-fly list.
You can also use a fake boarding pass instead of your real one if you have the "SSSS" mark and want to avoid secondary screening, or if you don't have a ticket but want to get into the gate area.

Historically, forging a boarding pass was difficult. It required special paper and equipment. But since Alaska Airlines started the trend in 1999, most airlines now allow you to print your boarding pass using your home computer and bring it with you to the airport. This program was temporarily suspended after 9/11, but was quickly brought back because of pressure from the airlines. People who print the boarding passes at home can go directly to airport security, and that means fewer airline agents are required.
Basically, the problem is that the TSA checks your ID against a boarding pass, but has no access to see if the boarding pass is actually valid. Then the gate agent checks your ID against a boarding pass, but has no access to the "terrorist watch list", and no real way of verifying the the ID, and relies on something being marked on your boarding pass to see if you need to be screened further. If you're using two different boarding passes... then the marks put on your first boarding pass by the TSA will never be seen when you pull out the second boarding pass and show it to the gate agent. See a problem here???
 
#33 ·
sd, I have twice been seated in the same seat as someone else since 9/11, so I have to assume that no one--not even the boarding pass scanner software--really knows what is going on the airplane, much less who or where.

As to what a sealed gas cylinder might or might not contain...a toothpaste tube could do the same.

You may recall last year when the TSA shut down a fairly large West Virginia airport because some Muslim woman from Pakistan was going to Detroit and her drink bottle tested positive for liquid explosives. If you DO recall that, and the way the incident was used to nationally justify and extoll the "liquids ban", I'll bet you never heard the followup to the incident.

On FBI lab examination, the bottle was found to contain nothing except...soda pop? And THAT NEWS was simply never carried in the national media, the Miami Herald was one of the few newspapers that followed up, none of the national Nooze broadcasts did.

I'd feel safer leading birdwatching tours in Waziristan.
 
#34 ·
I'd feel safer leading birdwatching tours in Waziristan.
It probably is safer... :) especially given the incompetence of the TSA security screeners. Bruce Schneier talks about one "test" of the baggage screeners, and how 90% of the "bombs" got through security here.

Sources told 9NEWS the Red Team was able to sneak about 90 percent of simulated weapons past checkpoint screeners in Denver. In the baggage area, screeners caught one explosive device that was packed in a suitcase. However later, screeners in the baggage area missed a book bomb, according to sources.
 
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