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composting toilet report

118K views 444 replies 97 participants last post by  MikeOReilly 
#1 · (Edited)
In a discussion of heads late in the spring I mentioned that I had installed them in my boat and a few people asked me to write up my experience with them, so here goes.

First a bit of background. I bought my J40, Genie, in the fall of 07 and began a lengthy refit. I had read on this site about composting toilets and was intrigued by the concept. I also really hated the amount of scarce boat space that was given over to holding tanks, pumps, valves and hoses . On the other hand I was still more than a bit uncertain about the whole concept of composting aboard a small boat.

My initial compromise in the spring of 08 was to take out the aft head and replace it with a composting fixture. Why a 40' boat has two heads is another thread and one that I won't go into here. Suffice it to say that that's what I had and what I had to deal with. It did afford me the opportunity to change one head and keep the other as a safety.

In the summer of 08 I took Genie on a cruise to Nova Scotia from my home port on the Hudson River. Everyone on the five man crew was quite leery of the composter and preferred to use the forward, old fashioned, head. While we were far offshore on the crossing from Provincetown to NS I decided to try to pump out the fwd holding tank. Something didn't feel right as I did so and I took a look under the bunks in the forepeak.

When I lifted the bunk boards I nearly had a coronary. The poly tank was bulging out in all directions and looked to be one more pump stroke from bursting. I had visions of driving the boat ashore and walking away from it never to return if something did burst. I had to open the deck outlet to relieve the pressure, resulting in a 2 foot gyser of raw sewage. Much scrubbing and cleaning later I swore to rid myself of all parts of that system, which had smelled bad anyway. (When I was dismantling the system later I found a sanitary product in one of the hoses that blocked the overboard discharge, the gift from a bubbleheaded guest of the PO)

During the return trip we were able to use pump outs and the crew remained shy of the composter in the aft head so I didn't really have a chance to evaluate it, though I used it religioulsy and found no problem with it. Last winter I removed the all the vestiges of the plumbing system and put in a composter in the fwd head as well.

This summer we cruised to Maine. I had anywhere from 2 to 4 crew aboard for a period extending to three weeks of sailing. People had to use the composters (or hang their posteriors over the pushpit) since we spent relatively little time at marinas. It was anchor or mooring, so they overcame their reluctance and used them. By the end of the cruise everyone was somewhat embarassed over their original reluctance and had gotten completely over their hang ups about it.

To fully discuss the pros and cons I have to give a brief description of the units and how they work. Essentially, composting toilets are made up of one "bucket" over another with a trap door between the two compartments. When the trap door is closed and liquid is deposited it runs into a removable 1 ½ gallon bottle in the front of the unit. There is a SS crank that can be used to agitate the contents of the lower container that is filled about halfway with peat moss and enzymes. A 1 1/2 " flexible hose with a fan at the deck end keeps a negative pressure in the lower tank to prevent odors from escaping.

If you are making a solid deposit you take a coffe filter (like those from a standard countertop coffe maker) and place it over the trap door. When finished you flip the handle that opens the trap door and your contribution drops to the lower compartment. The bowl is left clean because of the coffe filter. You take a couple of turns on the crank to mix your donation with the peat moss and that's it. If your donation was of the liquid variety I found it helpful to take a half a cupful of water to rinse the bowl and prevent it from developing odors.

Wow, I didn't mean to write the introduction to a book. At any rate here is what my conclusions are after one season of use:

Odors were not a problem with two exceptions. The urine bottle has to be emptied every couple of days or it does begin to get ripe. I have heard that a half a cup of sugar in the bottle keeps the odors down but I haven't tried it and I'm not enough of a chemist to understand if and why this would work. On the other hand it is not that difficult to clean out, either by taking the bottle to a shoreside head or by dumping it overboard (unless you are in a very closed harbor or a lake).

Part of the way into the trip one of the heads did begin to smell a bit, even after the bottle had been cleaned. A quick investigation revealed that the fan of the solar vent I had set up on deck to create the negative pressure to vent the unit had been jammed by a bit of caulking and was not functioning at all. I was pretty impressed that the unit had not smelled bad after a week of regular use even with no ventilation. I scraped off the caulk and had no problems from that point on.

We also discovered that the amount of toilet paper used by the number of people aboard tended to jam the lower compartment a bit. I was using regular TP so I don't know if using a rapidly degrading variety would work better, I'll experiment with that next year. I remembered that years ago, while in Greece, we were warned that the sanitary systems there did not swallow TP very well and near each toiled was a plastic bag into which you were expected to place the used paper. I bought some plastic zipper seal sandwich bags and instructed the crew to put the TP in the bags and thence into the garbage. Everyone caught on and dealt with it with no problem. The head was too small to install a bidet as an alternative.

The units themselves are pretty tall and it felt a bit funny at first to be so high, a bit like a kidergardner using grown up chairs. Most heads are placed on a shelf built into the liner so it is impossible to lower them. I am considering putting footholds so legs don't dangle in the air when sitting for shorter people. I got used to the altitude pretty fast as did the regular crew. It took some of explaining to guests.

And that's it for the downside. Not a long or impressive list. How about the upside?

Well, first of all, I am confident that I can deal with any head problems. These are extremely simple mechanisims. Nothing is hidden from view or inaccessible or impossible to reach. Everything is comprehensible and fixable. That is a huge plus. I also make sure I always carry a good supply of rubber gloves.

You don't need any assistance from the outside - last year in Nova Scotia where holding tanks were not required we had to search long and hard for a pumpout station. If your unit is overfull and you are offshore you just take the lower "bucket" and dump it overboard, rinse, refill with peat moss and start all over again. Total material from a crew still equals less than one poop from a medium sized whale, just make sure you are well offshore.

By removing all the tanks, pumps, valves and hoses I gained a tremendous amount of room. Both compartments under the two sinks were opened up for additional uses. The removal of the two holding tanks allowed me to install an additional 20 gal. diesel tank and to relocate my batteries.

The boat smells a hell of lot better. The hoses were getting ripe after 18 years of use and I didn't relish the job and/or the expense of replacing them. If you keep the composters clean they don't smell.

On the whole I'm glad I did the switch. There are problems but to me the problems are manageable because the system is simpler and much easier to maintain. If you sail for long periods with more than a couple of people one head may not be enough. My experience is that I can handle larger volumes for short periods or smaller volumes for longer. The manufacturer claims 80 uses during a season, you do the math. You leave the compost to work over the winter and in the spring the compost can be dug into the soil of your flower garden (not the vegetable garden!). I didn't want to discuss this with the Real Boss and so I fertilized some woods we own across the road. The deer didn't seem to mind and the material was indistinguishable from "black dirt". This year I might put it in the flower garden after all. This might be more difficult if you live in an apartment.

So this is what my experience has been after one season. I am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination but if asked if I would do it again on my next boat (if there is a next boat), I would say yes.
 
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#226 ·
Basically we just built a wooden box and used containers that would fit the height we needed. Most people use a bucket (like the kind you get at home depot with the lid) but that made our unit too tall, so we ended up using a stainless steel pot from a restaurant supply store and a small plastic kitty litter container jug. I don't have any photos hosted online, I don't like the free photo hosting sites, so sorry, no photos.
 
#230 ·
We use tea tree oil. A drop in the empty pee jar. and a drop in the squirt bottle for rinsing. fffresssh. Our composter is the best money we have spent so far.
Thanks Gil, I've never heard of the stuff. Where do you get it?
How often do you empty the receptacle now? I find that I have to empty mine just about every day when it's still less than half full. It would be nice to be able to get a couple of days out of it.
 
#233 ·
Cheaper alternative to Airhead and Nature's head

I just learned about this company today.

The C-Head

Index

It's good to see the price of these things dropping somewhat.
The ad in Southwinds says they start at $399.00 so that makes them about half the price of the others.
I don't know anything about them except what I've read on their website but they look pretty nice and it's good to see some competition.

 
#235 ·
I just learned about this company today.

The C-Head
Bought one a week ago ... have been studying it for several months ... looks like it will work very well for our situation and having some modifications made so that it will be installed on the Cal 28 ... but also be able to be transferred and used on the Ranger 23

Should have it delivered in about 2=3 weeks ... will do a write-up on installation and evaluation when it is complete ...
 
#239 ·
Wow that was a long read, I have been watching various forums for some time now regarding composting heads. Having ripped out the entire head holding and plumbing system from my boat a year ago, and having to deal with a nice infection in my knee resulting from the 36 y/o black water that came out of the hoses and covered everything, I am hesitant to put this stuff back in. I have yet to go down and measure my available space to see if one of these heads will fit but I am 90% sold on the idea. I spend most of my time on the boat and may end up as a full time liveaboard in the near future. I have found the marina bathroom to be fine, though when lazy I have used a soda bottle for number 1. The composting head, even when aboard 24/7, would not get used everyday for number 2. The collection bottle is easy to empty it seems and does not seem like it would be an issue. So, living aboard, I would use the marina bathroom, bathrooms at the college or where ever else I find myself most of the time. Then either in emergencies or when I was lazy and on board I would use the composting head. 80 use capacity for one man using it a few times a week....I would think this would compost just fine and when I did have to empty it, it would in fact be dirt. It seems some of the concern regarding liveaboards is the capacity and frequency of use. Do you sit in your boat all day everyday crapping throughout the day? I know I dont. I use the bathroom in my house at the most once a day. Often less. Cruisers would not have to worry about this at all as they could empty offshore whenever needed.

In addition, I would like to thank all the posters for taking the time to give me real time feedback on this item. This thing seems to be a winner and if it will fit, I may just get one. No way would it fit in the C22 but maybe in the C30.

The C-head does seem remarkably similar and for half the price. Though the capacity if far less and it seems to be less of a composting head and more of a initial composting storage unit- with the idea that you will dump it often into a proper compost heap.
 
#240 ·
Alan-
"when I did have to empty it, it would in fact be dirt."
Check what the EPA and others have to say about composting and composting toilets. In order for the contents to be dirt (sterile) you'd have to wait about two months between your last use of the toilet, and the time you emptied it.

Among the problems you can have with human feces is clostridium difficile (c. diff.) a very nasty bug that many of us carry in our colons without any problem. But when the balance of bugs in the colon gets disturbed (i.e. by anitibiotics in the hospital) this bug can become a killer, and in fact there's a drug-resistant form that has hospitals quite scared. C.diff. can form spores that survive outside the body and spread infection very nicely from casual contact, and no, even conventional bleach or alcohol won't kill them.

So, holding tank or bucket of nightsoil, either way it isn't sterile and it isn't "compost" until it has aged sufficiently. Without any new contributions. Just don't drop that bucket while you're on the launch.

OTOH there's the "incinolet", a combination toilet and incinerator. used on commercial fishing boats, it runs the contents into nice sterile ashes. Not sure I'd want to put my butt on something that can do that though. (G)
 
#242 · (Edited)
Alan-

Among the problems you can have with human feces is clostridium difficile (c. diff.) a very nasty bug that many of us carry in our colons without any problem. But when the balance of bugs in the colon gets disturbed (i.e. by anitibiotics in the hospital) this bug can become a killer, and in fact there's a drug-resistant form that has hospitals quite scared. C.diff. can form spores that survive outside the body and spread infection very nicely from casual contact, and no, even conventional bleach or alcohol won't kill them.
(G)
Hellosailor,

I hope if you don't mind me chiming in with the "Med" part of "Medsailor, with a few corrections.

Yes, C-diff is bad and it's on my short list of things that you don't want to get. However you are HIGHLY UNLIKELY to get c-diff by being exposed to the spores unless you are CURRENTLY ON ANTIBIOTICS.

It's gross to contemplate but many, many, of the sicknesses out there are only contracted from the "oral fecal route". (Yes, it is what it sounds like). Lets face it, people aren't clean, and when you wipe yourself, or change a diaper, there might be poo on your hand, then if you don't wash adequately and you make a sandwich for your friend, voila! oral fecal transmission of whatever it is that you have. Most of the time, you don't have anything to transmit, so no harm done.

So easy to transmit and yet there isn't an epidemic of C-diff EXCEPT in the hospitals. The reason for that is that everyone in the hospital is on antibiotics, so they are more open to the infection. Bottom line, feel free to jump into the pail of poo and roll around with the reckless abandon of a dog without fear of C-diff unless you are currently taking antibiotics. If you are currently taking antibiotics, just to be on the safe side, don't roll in the poo.

Your original premise, that it isn't just dirt, I totally agree with. Unless it's been composed at a high temperature, (which it won't in these units) it should be treated as poo, not dirt, no more or less dangerous. Gloves, and lots of washing afterwards.

Also chlorine DOES kill C-diff and C-diff spores even down to 1:10 concentration of household bleach. You were right about the alcohol hand sanitizer though, it doesn't kill the spores, though I have a personal theory about alcohol killing it in your gut if the moonshine is strong enough. ;-)

MedSailor

P.S. Still love the Nature's Head composting toilet on my boat. Not perfect, but WAY better than marine heads. 2 of us lived aboard with it as our only toilet for 4 years or so. We found that the coconut coir works better for us and is much easier to carry a supply of than peat moss.
 
#241 ·
Agreed on the idea of it being safe to handle. I would not handle it at all, any more than I handle the stuff in a sewer anyway. By "dirt" I meant in consistancy. The holding tank system in my C-30 sent me to the hospital by ambulance twice. Apparently, when I ripped the old system out to throw it away, the black water splashed everywhere. I washed the boat with bleach twice but I had a small bump on my knee that took on a wicked infection. We are talking septic with a high fever. I was kinda scared for my life...that kind of infection. So to me, the idea of EVER putting a wet system in my boat again is quite crazy. 36 year old liquified crap is nothing to play with. The idea of a contained process that does not have sewer lines running throughout my boat is very appealing. In addition, the C-30 actually has a lot of storage space, you just have to find it. The original holding tank area is quite large and I have gained that space. If the composting toliet fits, does not stink and is as simple as described, I can't seem to find an issue with it....
 
#243 · (Edited)
" If the composting toliet fits, does not stink and is as simple as described, I can't seem to find an issue with it.... "
I fully agree with you. My only beef is that there are no composting toilets for small craft. In order to actually compost the waste, they'd have to hold it with no new deposits for 2-3 months. They aren't compsting toilets, they are "compost starters" and the process has to be finished elsewhere, and the septic waste transported eleswhere for that to happen.
That may be cleaner, neater, easier to contain, but it still ain't compost when you have to transport it. It's sewage. Oddly enough, none of the makers are really up front about that.
Put two on board, alternate between the two for 90 day periods, and then you've got real compost being taken away from the one that was last unused for 90 days. That works, if you've got the room.

When I have to do headwork, it is with a tyvek coverall, gloves, bleach, paper towels, a "clean side" helper, and everything goes in the garbage bag to be disposed of as contaminated. Paranoid overkill, or good sanitation, depending on your point of view.

Put a seat on the foresprit and rig a curtain, perhaps? <G>

Med-
I've been up close and intimate with the c.diff issue with a family member this year. Even from CDC and NIH you will get contradictory information, but the bottom line is that you need a very strong bleach solution for a very long time in order to clean it, and in studies where 'proper' cleaning was done, they still had extensive spreading.
Right now if you want to kill the c.diff. once it has gone to spores, the only effective means is high dose UV-C radiation (illumination). Or one of the chemical agents that is so effective you wouldn't want to use it outside of a biohazard lab.

Now granted, that's not as big a problem as other bugs that are spread in human feces, but it is one that is up and coming. Dump the nightsoil is some dumpster, landfill, and all it takes is a pet rummaging through it at night to "bring it home" the next day. Yes, **** is **** and by and large it is not a problem--but hepatitis and yellow fever and all sorts of nasty killers are NOT gone. Aid workers exposed to sewage contamination after floods and storms still get a long lit of shots to deal with a long list of problems, and I'd just as soon know that "compost" means compost, as in 100% kill of all pathogens, before someone tries to pass it off as safe.

The composting toilets? Aren't anywhere near that. Which should be scary, because they are selling ti to people AS SAFE.
 
#246 ·
"Composting" Head problems



The only problem I ever had was a fruit fly infestation that occurred when the exhaust fan had a loose connection and wasn't running. A relatively easy thorough cleaning took care of the problem (after fixing the dc connector for the fan).

Other than that, after two full seasons of use, I'm still happy with it and would buy one again without even thinking about it.
 
#245 ·
We use a dry composting head (composting is really a misnomer, none of them really turn it into compost) that we built ourselves from a seperatt privy kit. Same concepts as both the airhead and the nature head. We prefer this type of head over the "keep a large tank of raw sewerage on board" method. Less hassle, no head smell, uses much less space on board. We live on board full time too. You may also be interested in the C-Head, it's half the price of the other two.
C-Head portable composting toilets
 
#250 ·
I would be very curious to know what forced them to "abandon" (I hate that word) the delivery due to the head...I I am reading things correctly, the Natures Head claims "80 uses" before needing to be serviced. Now...5/80 sounds about like 16 days or so..of once a day. So lets just figure 14 days to be safe. 2 weeks. Half a month. Why didn't they empty it???? Improper use? Not enough coconut? Or...could it be..

I have discussed this with quite a few people around my area. People ranging from modern day hippies to doctors. Somewhere around the 1/4 to 1/2 point up the scale of society, the acceptance level changes from "cool idea, and it sounds green" to "oh my god, that's disgusting!!"

Just playing devils advocate here. I simply wonder if that was the actual reason the delivery was abandoned or simply a factor. I read somewhere in this thread about someone getting a geyser of blackwater in the face and have experienced the same. Now THAT is a reason to abandon a delivery...or at least just walk off the back deck while underway in the middle of the sea...
 
#251 ·
I would be very curious to know what forced them to "abandon" (I hate that word) the delivery due to the head...I I am reading things correctly, the Natures Head claims "80 uses" before needing to be serviced. Now...5/80 sounds about like 16 days or so..of once a day. So lets just figure 14 days to be safe. 2 weeks. Half a month. Why didn't they empty it???? Improper use? Not enough coconut? Or...could it be..

I have discussed this with quite a few people around my area. People ranging from modern day hippies to doctors. Somewhere around the 1/4 to 1/2 point up the scale of society, the acceptance level changes from "cool idea, and it sounds green" to "oh my god, that's disgusting!!"

Just playing devils advocate here. I simply wonder if that was the actual reason the delivery was abandoned or simply a factor. I read somewhere in this thread about someone getting a geyser of blackwater in the face and have experienced the same. Now THAT is a reason to abandon a delivery...or at least just walk off the back deck while underway in the middle of the sea...
I don't know much about these 'composting' toilets (looks like you have put it in quotation marks) but I would imagine that it not only the total number of 'uses' is a limitation but also the number of 'uses' per day. Do the companies that sell them give guidelines on that?
 
#252 ·
Sheesh, It's not like it's rocket science. Even our pet cats know how to do it.
Take a dump and cover it up till it doesn't stink. When it gets full, empty it or change buckets.

The idea of having to abandon a delivery because of a malfunctioning composting toilet is absolutely inane and could only be the result of complete ignorance or laziness.
Anyone that couldn't find a way to work around a problem like that shouldn't be allowed to operate a boat in the first place. Much less reproduce.
 
#253 ·
maybe they didn't have any replacement peat moss ..

Sheesh, It's not like it's rocket science. Even our pet cats know how to do it.
Take a dump and cover it up till it doesn't stink. When it gets full, empty it or change buckets.

The idea of having to abandon a delivery because of a malfunctioning composting toilet is absolutely inane and could only be the result of complete ignorance or laziness.
Anyone that couldn't find a way to work around a problem like that shouldn't be allowed to operate a boat in the first place. Much less reproduce.
or coconut coir ?????
 
#255 ·
Those were exactly my points. I simply think that a plumbed wet system has a much higher chance of malfunctioning than a glorified cedar bucket...for the sake of discussion, I know sailors who will not leave the dock if their GPS chartplotter malfunctions...I have charts on board for that reason...and can use them. A malfunctioning composting toilet stopping a delivery?....how exactly would it malfunction? Did the operator malfunction? Mistake the sink for the head in the middle of the night and find themselves being awoken in the morning by the Captain who tried to shave in the dark using the sink? I am curious.

On another note, I have noticed that there is not a lot of information regarding these heads posted on forums. Now, we all know that most people will not post things unless they have a problem. Functioning equipment warrants little discussion...it just functions so people don't think about it..could this be a good thing regarding these heads? Both major companies that make them are obviously selling them as they are still in business. I am seriously considering one of these things and will be done with the restoration of the main cabin soon. The head is next...I will document the process and post on the results.
 
#256 ·
We have a composting toilet in our shop on land. There's no septic system or sewer where our business is.

We have had it for over 10 yrs and have yet to do anything to it. I'm assuming that land based systems have a much larger capacity. It doesn't get used much since our home is only 1/3 mile away and we hardly have anyone besides the family at our shop. Ours doesn't separate the liquid from solids either. They all go in the same place.

Our only advice would be to make 100% sure you never allow the fan to stop. I can tell you that we have a large exhaust fan in our powder spray booth that will from time to time over power the little fan in the toilet. When this happens the smell from the toilet will fill the shop, Although not crazy bad the smell is different enough (plus knowing where it came from) that you don't want to smell it long.

For us, after owning a land based system for so long I'm not sure we'd be up for a composing toilet on our boat. They are or seem to be dirtier. A step down in class or how ever you'd want to say it.

Like one poster said flush it and forget it is a better way. Even if once every few yrs you have to suck it up and do some maintenance. We had to change the holding tank in our Carver in 2008. It was leaking into the aft cabin. Smelled like hell or some other 4 letter word. Changed it on the 4th of July weekend, hot as hell. Yes it was a very bad exp. but I still don't think I'd put in a composting toilet.

Another thing to consider is resale value. Will ppl looking at your boat think the same as you? Surveyors might not be familiar enough with them to give sound advice to buyers????

I always figured when the time comes for us to sell our business we will not be able to count the composting toilet as a bath room.
 
#258 · (Edited)
Med, I agree with you that the typical c.diff. spores or bacteria itself can be handled by the typical human. The problem being, there are drug-resistant strains, no easy way to test for them, and there are many susceptible users. Look at all the antibiotics taken routinely by so many people, need 'em or not.

Given that there is currently NO recognized and approved way to clear up a c.diff. infection, no cure and no way recognized to fix someone who is suffering from it, in a way that puts c.diff right up there next to Ebola: No known cure, and a significant death rate. OK, Ebola has a higher death rate--but drug resistant c.diff. is showing up more and more and if it doesn't kill now, it kills two years later from chronic diarrhea. Or makes the rest of your life a miserable run for the pot. Even the diagnostic tests for c.diff. and the toxins from it are so heavily riddled with false positives and negatives, that they can be repeated multiple times with no definite results.

"No way recognized" and "no cure" despite the fecal transplants, which are still considered as experimental even though there's a lot of support for them in a very small community.

Is a bucket of nightsoil any better than a small septic tank onboard? I don't know, perhaps if you threw quicklime in the bucket the way any turkish toilet does. My sole greivance with these things is that they are NOT "compost" toilets, and the makers really need to let the purchasers know, excrement is still excrement and adequate precautions need to be taken.

If you believe the CDC "Ten years ago, a team of CDC scientists put together the best enduring estimate of how many Americans get food poisoning each year: 76 million illnesses, which resulted in 325,000 ho$pitalization$ and 5,000 deaths." Basics are still worth being aware of, and the public generally is simply unaware of them. Even without deceptive names.

In the US we are still somewhat in the golden age when there are no plagues, no rampant disease [sic]...but epidemics and sanitation really still need to be remembered. Like HIV and syphilis, it is just much simpler to take some basic steps and not catch them. Whether they are curable or not, better still just to not have that problem.

Although, having had "explosive diarrhea" (which has to be experienced to be truly understood) I have to wonder about having a head that isn't flushed with water. There are times when that flushing and washing might be a good thing. Or, the bag of quicklime.
 
#270 ·
Given that there is currently NO recognized and approved way to clear up a c.diff. infection, no cure and no way recognized to fix someone who is suffering from it, in a way that puts c.diff right up there next to Ebola: No known cure, and a significant death rate. OK, Ebola has a higher death rate--but drug resistant c.diff. is showing up more and more and if it doesn't kill now, it kills two years later from chronic diarrhea. Or makes the rest of your life a miserable run for the pot. Even the diagnostic tests for c.diff. and the toxins from it are so heavily riddled with false positives and negatives, that they can be repeated multiple times with no definite results.

"No way recognized" and "no cure" despite the fecal transplants, which are still considered as experimental even though there's a lot of support for them in a very small community.
This is patently absurd.

It is also exactly the kind of medical mis-information that is rampant on the internet and on the airwaves that makes life as a medical provider in this country often a living hell.

I don't even know where to start..... There are treatments, (I've personally treated MANY a case of C-diff) there is a definative cure that works 100% of the time, there are even FDA approved treatments, the test you refer to is old and out-dated..... Really, I don't even know where to start.:rolleyes:
 
#259 ·
I'm on the fence.

Traditional marine toilets and holding tanks are hard to maintain, they can smell, and if they fail.... Holy crap!

As for "composting" toilets, I agree that they do not produce "compost. However, I think it's how one deals with the waste. So it's not safe near food, pets, children etc.

However, if one is far enough off shore it can be legally and ethically dumped. If one is near shore it can be disposed of properly. I would take it home and bury it. Two or three times a season is not a big deal. It beats the hell out of maintaining an old Jabsco.

However, if one is living aboard or cruising no-discharge zones how can it be disposed of?

edit: I suppose it could be taken ashore to marina rest rooms and flushed in small quantities? Not sure what coconut husks or peat moss due to indoor plumbing or septic systems.
 
#261 ·
Natures Head has extra "bottoms" available with lids. Would letting an extra bottom with lid compost for a couple of months without adding new material take care of the bad crap like c-diff ??? (pun intended)
No. While the composting process will continue in the closed buckets, it will not reach thermophilic temperatures. It takes a couple of years of cold composting to be sure that the pathogens are dead.

What most people who haven't actually tried it don't understand is that you don't actually handle anything. When I empty my bucket in my compost pile I'm not getting it all over myself. I take the pitchfork, make a depression in the middle, dump the contents of the bucket, which is primarily sawdust, (i don't even have to look at feces, it's all covered in sawdust) into the depression and then using the pitchfork I cover the new addition with more cover material. Usually grass clippings or partially mulched leaves.
The bucket is rinsed with water which is then dumped on the pile.
After it's all said and done, I wash my hands. No big deal.
If people would really think about it, they are probably much more likely to be exposed to raw fecal material just wiping their butt than they are emptying their bucket.
A big to-do over nothing.

Rob, hopefully, the day is coming that the phobia about all this will begin to subside and marinas will begin to offer disposal services for the users of composting heads.
I for one would be happy to have the occasional cruiser add to my compost pile. It's just more rich soil for my yard.
 
#262 ·
Rob,

You are pretty much nailing the problem with these composting heads - they're just complicated porta-potti's. At least I can take a port-potti and dump it in any head safely and responsibly with zero environmental impact.

With composting heads, it's a given that urine is directly discharged into the water as the holding tank is far smaller than any port-potti. So it's a given the urine is dumped directly in the water which makes this composting solution no different than peeing over the side - always!

There is no safe place to dispose of the fecal matter mixed with other contents in the main chamber. It's human feces that breaks down and mixes with the material it is mixed with and all the fecal bacterial is there. Being more solid means it presents a far greater health risk when dumped at sea as it will drift in clumps - yuck. And there is no safe place to bury, dump or mix human feces on land so special dumping areas will have to be developed that can be processed. Otherwise it's synonymous with crapping in your back yard and covering it with dirt and leaves. :puke

My take is that they should be classed as illegal on boats as a sanitation device. These are far from a sensible ecological solution and actually contribute to a less ecologically sound and healthy solution than traditional porta-potti and holding tank methods. Meaning they make the problem worse not better.

Good luck selling a boat with this system or finding a deliver captain willing to take the risk of a pollution violation. :eek:
 
#304 ·
Hmmm, the manuals for these toilets specifically warn not to dump in food gardens due to potential bacterial contamination.

The research that you quoted outlines very specific conditions required to make the poo safe. It's not likely that many will meet these requirements.

It's amazing that you can just filter out the material that doesn't work for you.

It's sad that you have no regard for the larger community around you and feel the world is your toilet. It's the few bad apples like this that cast a bad light on all boaters. All it's going to take is for this to impact one person and a whole new public crusade against boaters, cruising and anchoring will ignite.

As a modern society we have achieved processed sewage systems so that waste does not have to be dumped in the public domain.

Are you obtuse or just a troll?
Let me quote from my previous post. Please actually read it this time, okay?

"Humanure may be deemed safe for humans to use on crops if handled in accordance with local health regulations, and composted properly. This means that thermophilic decomposition of the humanure must heat it sufficiently to destroy harmful pathogens, or enough time must have elapsed since fresh material was added that biological activity has killed any pathogens. To be safe for crops, a curing stage is often needed to allow a second mesophilic phase to reduce potential phytotoxins.

Humanure is different from night soil, which is raw human waste spread on crops. While aiding the return of nutrients in fecal matter to the soil, it can carry and spread a vast number of human pathogens. Humanure kills these pathogens both by the extreme heat of the composting and the extended amount of time (1 to 2 years) that it is allowed to decompose."

There is a lot of information on the subject. Why don't you actually check it out?
No offense, but you're information is a bunch of crap. ;)
You're insisting that the most natural process in the world, one that happens all by itself and has forever, is a dangerous practice.
That's just silly.

Google a fellow named Joe Jenkins. He's the guy that came up with the term "Humanure". He also composted his family's waste for over thirty years while bringing up children. He used the compost in his vegetable gardens for all that time.

The Humanure Handbook - Center of the Humanure Universe

He also paid to have extensive testing on his compost and has the documentation to prove his claims.
 
#311 · (Edited)
Hmmm, the manuals for these toilets specifically warn not to dump in food gardens due to potential bacterial contamination.

The research that you quoted outlines very specific conditions required to make the poo safe. It's not likely that many will meet these requirements.

It's amazing that you can just filter out the material that doesn't work for you.

It's sad that you have no regard for the larger community around you and feel the world is your toilet. It's the few bad apples like this that cast a bad light on all boaters. All it's going to take is for this to impact one person and a whole new public crusade against boaters, cruising and anchoring will ignite.

As a modern society we have achieved processed sewage systems so that waste does not have to be dumped in the public domain.
Actually Knothead, I think he's a Troll, in which case I shouldn't feed him, but on the other hand, he could be sub-IQ. He is a Mcgregor "sailor" after all. :p so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and respond.

HeartsContent, I want you to raise your left hand and repeat after me:
"Don't eat the poo."

Got it?

Good.

I'm glad you brought up the point about a city's sanitation system being essential to keeping people from getting sick. Part of a city's sanitation system is their garbage collection. If one uses the Nature's head as recommended in the manual (as I do) you will put the poo in a garbage bag and put it in the trash. At this point it enters the sanitation system and stays separate from food and thus. The poo is not eaten. Nobody gets sick. Diapers, cat litter and rotting food (which will all make you sick if you eat them) go in the trash, and the refuse from my toilet is not different. It's actually a whole lot like cat litter, just without the toxoplasmosis (I hope).

There is nothing selective going on here about the filtering of information. Nobody is going to get sick from my boat toilet poo, because nobody is going to eat my poo. Cholera and epidemics of the third world etc happen when poo gets in the drinking water. Nobody is going to drink my poo either. It is going to safely rot/compost away in a land fill next to the diapers, cat poo, and salmonella-covered Thanksgiving turkey. Improper hand washing after touching a poo-covered butt with only thin paper as prophylaxis is a health threat not poo/dirt in a garbage bin or land fill.

MedSailor

PS I secretly like McGregors. I think they're a very innovative sailboat design and I have a lot of respect for McGregor making them unsinkable.
 
#268 ·
Well if I owned a boat worth a quarter million, it would have one. But of course you're right.
The whole idea of having to actually deal with one's own sh!t, is pretty radical to most people. Whether they have expensive boats or not. We have been conditioned to simply flush and forget.

But the fact is, there are a lot more people in the world that don't own expensive yachts and that don't live aboard and that aren't cruising around the world who might just find that the idea works for them. Plus there are millions upon millions of others that do most of their pooping on land that could really be doing themselves and the environment a favor by stopping the practice of wasting up to one third of their water consumption flushing their toilets.

As far as a boat's resale value, and I'm not talking about your quarter million dollar yacht example. I personally have worked on lots of boats that were for sale that stunk so bad that if I were looking to buy it, I would have preferred it if the stinking head and all the components were ripped out before I took possession. I might even pay more.
 
#269 ·
You know what I learned about researching this - more people get disease from not washing their hands after using THE POTTY anywhere!

At home, at work, before eating, after eating! In the USA, it doesn't matter where you void, it's what you do with your hands afterwards. Why do you think there is so much dysentery in India? No fresh water to wash - we are lucky to have public restrooms when needed.

The nursing homes in Florida don't educate their staff about sterilization between C-Diff patients and the next patient - unless you tell them! Caused by SH__! The lack of a sterile environment is found even in hospitals - Infection and MERSA.

Why not take responsibility for yourself? Bury, wash, cover, resupply the Earth with compost - and make a less carbon impact! Your flowers grow better, the grass is greener!
 
#272 ·
I would encourage anyone considering a composting toilet to personally visit a boat with one. If possible take a cruise. Live day to day with it.

Like we have said before we own a land based system and just can not imagine having the same on a boat.

Asking guest to use them is not much different to us than asking them to use a porta-potti , a step back in human evolution. Do they work.. yes.

Are they what you'd expect for 2012....no. Maybe if you were in Haiti?? But certainly not in the USA 2012.

Of coarse these are our personal opinions. These and .01 cents will get you .01 cents....lol

To us we'd rather maintain a standard holding tank system than replace our heads with a composting toilet. For us it's simply a choice or a preference. We'd rather us and our guest be able to flush and forget. Do we have to repair the system form time to time? Sure, but at least we don't have to deal with pee and poop any other time.

So we ultimately have mixed feelings about them. In some situations they are necessary others maybe not?????
 
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