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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Learning to Sail > New Guys
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Thread: New Guys Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-30-2012 01:57 PM
arknoah
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackdale View Post
Google "yacht club portland OR" for the clubs.

Many yacht clubs have teaching programs as well.

Many skippers are looking for crew who will put some sweat into their program.
Getting out and sailing is probably your best course of action. Finding some inexpensive instruction, perhaps from your college or university (or a community college nearby) can get you some of the classroom and practical experience to start. And coupled with inexpensive rentals through a sailing club (are you getting the inexpensive thread, here?) should help as well.

Exercising caution in boat purchasing is obvious too, though lots of people have already mentioned that.

I just wish I had tried this in my 20s rather than my 50s.

Good luck!
01-28-2012 12:50 AM
joethecobbler
Quote:
creedence,
I've been re-reading some of JOE'S posts. We really show bow to his superior intellect.
His knowledge and experience knows no bounds...or is it his ego that has no bounds? Not sure which. Just reading his extensive bio speaks volumes about his IQ! He probably skipped going to high school and college because there was nothing they could teach him as he already knows everything.
Wow!
I 'm sorry my opinions don't sit well with you.
I feel worse thet you have chosen to attempt to mock and personally attack me in an apparent moment of self doubt.
I'm sure there are many things I may never know, but I can and do learn,daily.
what specifically offends you so ? that I expound a different approach than you?
that I will not simply agree with you ?
Can you differentiate between Ego and confidence? aparently not.
I lived many years w/ people telling me what I couldn't or was incapable of doing. of course that changed when I did those very things (for me,not for the detractors).
I've never had/made alot of money ( I suspect I never will),but I've lived alot of life. of my own making.
I encourage others to be bold and chase ther dreams as if thier very lives depended on it, as I believe it does.
I suspect my life is half over at this stage of the game, and I've got alot more living to do in a very short amount of time.


what's you story er, bio ?
do tell.

PS . please excuse my poor spelling (after all ,I apparently skipped school !)
01-28-2012 12:20 AM
chuck53 creedence,
I've been re-reading some of JOE'S posts. We really show bow to his superior intellect.
His knowledge and experience knows no bounds...or is it his ego that has no bounds? Not sure which. Just reading his extensive bio speaks volumes about his IQ! He probably skipped going to high school and college because there was nothing they could teach him as he already knows everything.
Wow!
01-27-2012 11:24 PM
creedence623 I think another way to look at it is from a risk vs reward perspective. The scenario: Buying a boat, figuring it out with no assistance, and heading out.

Risks (worst case): Loss of boat, death, finacial liability beyond the price of the boat and equipment.

Reward: Saved money on the survey, learned about the systems along the way (assuming you made it that far- see link to follow), saved time, saved money on courses.

The problem I see is that the potential risks of setting out with minimal preparation far outweigh the reward of money and time saved. I think we all agree these guys should definitely get out there and sail. But we may have to agree to disagree on the amount of preparation they should put into executing their plan.

As I mentioned above, I sold my boat in Hawaii to a guy who paid cash, and was beginning his dream of living aboard a sailboat. He wasn't planning a trip of any kind, he just wanted to live aboard and sail his own boat around Waikiki. He owned the boat for 7 (no lie) days...

Nautical Mishaps, Maritime Calamities: NO POLLUTION THREAT FROM GROUNDED WAIKIKI SAILBOAT


I think suggesting ways to learn about sailing before setting off is warranted. In fact, it's warranted simply because they came on here and asked how they could gain the knowledge necessary to take this trip. I also think suggesting they take advantage of an experienced eye to aid them in the purchase of their investment is warranted as well.
01-27-2012 11:07 PM
joethecobbler
Quote:
The seller may or may not have a recent survey as the onus is on the buyer to obtain one. As the current owner of the boat for which I paid $300+ to have a survey done when I was the then buyer, there's no way I'm just going to hand it over to some yahoo too cheap to get an updated survey. If you can't afford the survey, you can't afford the boat and the subsequent cost of upkeep
.

It's not about affording a survey, it's about the value of a survey done by an individual who is just another chump who attended a 6 week survey school/class and PAID for the certification. Are surveys guarranteed to find any and all deficiencies-no
do the come with ANY guarrantees ? =doubtful
Unlike an actual license say a pilots license or even a captains license where actual demonstration and testing and minimum time requirements are required anyone can attend a surveyor class that has a credit card no previous boating experience is required just a willingness to pay the entry dues.
My position is that if your to simple or dumb to figure out if the boat floats or the head works , your probably not going to be able to handle much of anything else of any consequence. like grounding,weather,sailing etc. and will probably need a host of other rip-off services that have sprung up around recreational boating to aid the very ones who DO in fact raise the element of DANGER to those that are capable.

Quote:
Those teenagers sailing around the world had sponsors, support, state of the art equipment and had been sailing all of their lives.

Ms. Dekker , by her own admission had been sailing since she was 6 , 14-6= 8 8 years of sailing and she circumnavigated. so she was NOT sailing "her whole life" only the last 8
and stated the most trepidatious part of the circ. was noy yhe ocean,storms,etc. but rather the harrassment of her gov't proir to departure.
. the OP was not contemplating a circumnavigation and had considered a pacific passage but decided against it in favor of a carib. cruise.
hardly going off w/out consideration.
As per lack of the almighty experience often touted, try reading the bumfuzzle blog- no experience and completed a 4 year circ. against the "advice" of many internet sailors, and there still at it w/ children aboard to boot!! luck? yea apparently four consecutive years worth and counting. all the while the internet captains cringing in fear at the dock.

Quote:
No one is saying not to follow your dreams. What most are trying to say is don't put yourselves or others in danger for no reason. You can still have a great adventure while being a responsible boater.
and instilling unnesecary fear and attempting to make sailing much more than it is,sailing. a carib. cruise could be accomplished on a sunfish ! as a matter of fact didn't a guy kayak through the carib?
reading the repeated posts in response to people curious about sailing and cruising and being told how dangerous it is and how vital USCG classes are and such is becoming laughable.
ALL those types of classes I have been to are geared toward mental midgets with too much disposable income and too little common sense.
almost as rediculous as when the coast guard asked me if I was SURE I was aground in Shallotte inlet , while I careened over at about 30% in 2' of water. waiting for the tide to come back in to float off. and you would suggest that I take sailing safety classes from them? for what ?

too cheap for a survey? hardly , too smart to hand over my hard earned to some "Yahoo" w/ a crackerjack paid in full "certification" in surveying= most definetaly.
01-27-2012 10:41 PM
chuck53 Thanks Donna. Excellent post.

I'd love to hear back from the new guys for their take on all our discussions.
01-27-2012 10:25 PM
DRFerron
Quote:
Originally Posted by youmeandthed View Post
Surveys are useless, but if someone isn't willing to provide you with it when you ask as a potential buyer it says more about the seller than the boat.
One point of the survey is to tell the buyer what is wrong with the boat and is usually performed by someone qualified to know. The buyer can then take the survey and have some concrete negotiating power when making an offer on the boat. We used the survey to determine if we could live with the expense of the repairs that we then knew needed to be done and as a checklist for doing the repairs. It listed the most crucial items that needed to be fixed and those were completed first.

The seller may or may not have a recent survey as the onus is on the buyer to obtain one. As the current owner of the boat for which I paid $300+ to have a survey done when I was the then buyer, there's no way I'm just going to hand it over to some yahoo too cheap to get an updated survey. If you can't afford the survey, you can't afford the boat and the subsequent cost of upkeep. Besides that, the survey is good for the time at which it was performed. Five, ten, or even one year later too much may have changed (i.e., the boat may have been damaged, equipment removed/upgraded, etc) to make it a useful tool for the buyer. Neither do I want to risk selling a boat and handing over an X-years old survey and have to deal with some crazy next owner returning to complain that this that or the other was no longer working, no longer on the boat, or otherwise differed from the survey.

That said, I also consider how complicated the boat is to determine if I'm going to get a survey. I paid little for my first boat, a 22 footer, and did not have a survey. It had simple systems and no galley or head, BUT, I did have an experienced sailor look it over for me to determine if it would at least float and had all the bits I needed to sail.

And creedance is correct. Those teenagers sailing around the world had sponsors, support, state of the art equipment and had been sailing all of their lives.

No one is saying not to follow your dreams. What most are trying to say is don't put yourselves or others in danger for no reason. You can still have a great adventure while being a responsible boater.
01-27-2012 09:58 PM
creedence623 I bought my first big boat in Hawaii at 23. I had very little experience with sailing, and NO blue water experience whatsoever. I had no clue how to buy a boat or what to look for. Fortunately, I had a good broker, I hired a good surveyor, found this forum, and learned as much as I could. I picked it all up at my own pace, with no courses, and went on successively longer sails. I agree there is value in the courses, and if you want to expand your base of knowledge, that's a great way to do it. If you have the money, and want to learn from the ground up, courses are a great way to go.

I think the folks on this site who are beyond the "young dumb and sailing" demographic are a bit more conservative; but I think by in large, its because they have experienced enough to understand the value in conservatism. Whether you decide to take their advice is up to you, but I would at least hear them out.

When I was buying my first, no one told me not to do it, and I don't see any problems with anyone else with very little, or even no sailing experience buying a boat and heading out. In fact, I'm one of the more liberal members here (as far as sailing anyway). I think if the boat is sound, and you take things at the right pace, there's no reason you cant do it. Just be patient and don't exceed your capabilities in the process. The guy I ended up selling that boat to was another dreamer, but he took it too fast and sank it off a reef in Waikiki within ONE WEEK of purchasing it. The state fined him $100,000 for salvage, and damage to the reef.

As Joe mentioned, it's just sailing, but that doesn't mean you can (or should) sail across oceans without proper preparation.

But I still say you should draw on experience when buying the boat. Whether that's a surveyor, or someone who knows the ins and outs of used boats. Like I said, pretend your about to spend a big pile of money and act accordingly.
01-27-2012 09:33 PM
chuck53 Thanks creedence for saying what I was thinking.
As far as those kids that sail around the world...I'd say they had more than a "fair" amount of training and expert guidance...they had years of it. They probably had more experience at 10 than most of us have at 30 or 40.
01-27-2012 09:17 PM
creedence623
Quote:
Originally Posted by joethecobbler View Post
yea, it's all luck and you need to pay a used car salesman er, broker/surveyor cause they both have special powers and extra eyes and fingers and your toooooooooooooo dumb to figure it out on your own . you might as well just stay home and die of old age rather than live it. my bad.

14 year old girls are saiing around the world, alone ! your right your probably not up to the task.
Probably should just forget it ,or buy the boat and never leave the dock for fear of the unknown and all the advice of the other "sailors" you will meet at the extremey affordable USCG and other "classes" be sure to get your west marine card and cuzy.
I listened to self proclaimed sailors for a decade tell me all they new and all the experience blah blah ... then I stopped listening and did what all the naysayers said couldn't or were too sceered to do.
glad I did, met plenty of others doing it on everything imaginabe in every cove,bay,river,canal and inlet from buffalo to tampa (3-4 times) and back .
many of these folks were at it for years and years cruising all over the world some had it all ,some had less than nothing !
families,singles,men,women. some w/ pets,kids.
All kinds, great people,extraordinay experiences .
My only regret is listening to the internet captains telling me what I couldn't do .

please, it's just sailing .

I hope that wasn't a response to my post. If I read the OP's post correctly, it was something like "we've never done this before, here's what we're thinking of doing, etc". I think recommendations to chose a boat carefully are warranted.

As for the "just get out there and do it" phylosophy, I could not agree more. Do it now, while you can if you're so inclined.

But Joe, you've been around long enough I'm sure you're familiar with Ronnie Simpson's story. He just went out there and did it with no knowledge and look how far he got (about half way).

As for the 16 and 14 year olds, look at the amount of prep work went in to their boats. I haven't seen their budgets, but I garauntee they were significant. These weren't kids who picked a boat and rolled, they had a fair amount of coaching and expert guidance in both outfitting and learning to sail. Now, I'm not saying these guys need sailing instruction. I've never had any, and I haven't balled up a boat yet. I'm just saying that before these kids headed off they and their support teams made sure they were prepared.

I'm not going to get into a debate over whether the OPs should be smart about the money they are looking to spend. I say go for, but be smart about it.
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