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New Guys

5K views 37 replies 12 participants last post by  arknoah 
#1 ·
Hey SailNet!

Our names are William, Cole and Martin. Recently we decided that upon graduating college we'd like to purchase and sail a boat somewhere tropical for awhile. Initially we had decided on Hawaii, how hard could it be right? :rolleyes: Well, after some research we determined it'd be pretty difficult, so we scrapped that and are thinking about the Florida Keys and Bahamas.
Here's the thing though, none of us have significant sailing experience. Cole has done a bit on a very small craft, but none of us have tried anything with a 25'+ vessel on the open ocean. So obviously we have a pretty lofty goal, but with enough preparation we feel like we can achieve nearly anything. So we're going to go through the Learning to Sail articles, but what can you recommend for us? This includes everything: what boat? when/where to buy it? what gear/equipment? where to sail? time of year?
The next thing is, how do we get some experience sailing? Any Portland, OR locals know of clubs or events where we could observe, learn and practice? Any locals willing to help teach some guys in exchange for manual labor? :D
Looking forward to learning lots! T-Minus 29 months!

-William, Martin and Cole.
 
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#2 ·
Actually the first, not next, thing to get some experience.

Google "yacht club portland OR" for the clubs.

Many yacht clubs have teaching programs as well.

Many skippers are looking for crew who will put some sweat into their program.
 
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#3 ·
If I were you guys, I'd buy something small, maybe 20-23 feet to do day sailing in the area you are currently living in. If you are in protected waters and learn the rules of the road, you can go out and sail with the limited knowledge you have now. You've got 2 years ahead of you and you will learn a lot about sailing.
 
#4 ·
We are all college guys, so capital is a scarce thing to come by. Ideally we'd only have to buy one boat later down the line. Maybe something tiny though? Would the little single or double person sail boats give us skills that would translate to something larger?
 
#5 ·
I learned to sail on a sunfish when I was a kid. Never did much sailing at all until I bought my first boat, a Catalina 30 when I was in my mid 40's. So yes, learning to sail on a 22' day sailer will help lots when you move up.
I hear you about money, but if you can't afford a 20' day sailer now, how are you going to afford something big enough and good enough to sail around the Bahamas. For 3 of you to live and travel long term on a boat, you don't want anything less than 27-30'.
 
#7 ·
Check out craigslist for the keys as well as South florida to get an Idea of what is available for boats.
As the economy sucks sailboats can be had for cheap right now. that may change in the next 2 years. right now you could easily grab a 30' boat for under $5000
I wouldn't sweat the learning to sail thing about 2 days on the boat anf you'll figure it out. read a few books in the mean time to get the jist of the maritime rules and a general grasp on laws etc.
if you buy a boat in Fla. and head to the keys your not going to really be on the "open Ocean" much.
might also want to get comfortable w/ the weather forcasting as this will affect almost all other aspects of the cruise.
in the meantime grab a cheap sailing dinghy and get in a little water time to acclimate and keep the dream going.
have fun.
 
#9 ·
I agree that a 30 footer can be found for $5000 but it's going to be old and in rough shape and while sailing the Bahamas isn't bluewater sailing, there's still a lot of open water between islands and I don't think I'd want to be out in that open water in a $5000 derelick. Remember, you get what you pay for and your life will depend on the seaworthiness of your boat.

Do find a decent sailing dinghy for practice and try to get one that has both a mainsail and jib, so you get used to sailing with 2 sails.

Find a local U.S. Power & Sail Squadron or Coast Guard Aux. and take the boating safety course. Most states require you to have that class before hitting the water in any kind of boat. Then take the seamanship class that both organizations offer.

Do all this, save your money for a decent boat and you guys will enjoy sailing the islands.
 
#10 ·
Dinghy skills definitely do translate to something larger, and you should do that. I'd say you're looking for something 10'-15'. What they don't give you is experience with repairing the more complex "systems" of a 27' s/y - engine, steering, rigging, anchoring, mooring, docking, etc.

Many skippers are looking for crew who will put some sweat into their program.
This. Also, you might post an ad volunteering maintenance labor for boat owners in exchange for experience -- there are a number of big jobs that are labor-intensive that an owner might be able to use you for, or might just need an extra hand. The jobs themselves probably aren't something you would likely need to do right away in your plan, but just by hanging around boats you pick some things up by osmosis. And who knows, your final boat might turn out to be a project.
 
#12 ·
I agree that a 30 footer can be found for $5000 but it's going to be old and in rough shape and while sailing the Bahamas isn't bluewater sailing, there's still a lot of open water between islands and I don't think I'd want to be out in that open water in a $5000 derelick. Remember, you get what you pay for and your life will depend on the seaworthiness of your boat.
I think your painting with too broad a brush.
I paid under $2000 for a 32' 30 year old boat and it came w/ a kubota 4cyl. w/ less than 200hrs. all bronze through hulls. swageless rigging etc etc. there are alot of boats around and alot of people who want to part w/ them .
As for the distances from fla to the Bahamas, I think bimini is 48 miles away !! an overnight sail.
Also to say an inexpensive neglected boat is not or would not be "sea worthy" is too general a statement .
I could sight dozens of examples of folks sailing far on less and w/ less.
I'm exhausted with the repeated mantra of and from folks about how difficult and dangerous sailing is and how one needs a certain boat and equipment. It just isn't so, please quit perpetuating this mistruth. how many accounts of completey inexperienced sailors making long trips and extended cruises successfully will it take to show sailing is just not that rixky or complex?
And the "classes " and "courses" are SOOOOOooooooooooooooooooooooooo lame. just read a little and take an interest in it and you will learn /know all that you can without actually doing, after that doing will expose the rest.
I've sailed the hell out of my $2000 dollar boat and she has many more miles left in her.
just do it, do it.
 
#13 ·
Haha I appreciate your confidence and go-for it attitude, helps rekindle mine. I do think we'll err on the side of caution though since none of us have any background in this whatsoever. We'll certainly be putting out ads for labor in exchange for experience. I like this because we'll learn both sailing and maintenance.

As far as expected costs, we really don't know. I have been seeing very reasonably priced boats, but many look to need some work. Since we're in Oregon, about as far from the Keys as you can get, we'd rather buy something that needs little to no work at all, that way there's no big surprises when we go down for the trip. I'm not sure how we're going to work out logistics, but we were thinking of buying a boat online in the keys... sight unseen. This is a big risk, but we were thinking of having local forum members maybe help us scope out the ship beforehand. It would save us the drive/flight and thereby a LOT of money.

What other kind of factors go into a trip like this? Any recommended reading for us? Thanks for all the replies!
 
#15 ·
Hi! I think I am just down the road from you, assuming GFU is George Fox University? We live in Lafayette, and spend a lot of time in Newberg. We have a 32 foot Islander, and would enjoy taking you out and showing you the ropes, but unfortunately our boat is in the Puget Sound at the moment, up by Port Townsend, WA. which is not the most convenient. Are you all from the area (be around in the summer) or will you be going home for the summer? We may be bringing the boat back to the Columbia this summer, we haven't decided for sure yet. Either way, perhaps we can work something out. I like your go for it attitude, coupled with a bit of caution and a few years foresight.

Bryan
 
#16 ·
my wife and i are doing what you want to do.We're from Vancouver, Canada. boughta catalina 30 got comfortable with sailing, boat work, and financial responsibility. We sold it and just bought a cruising boat in Florida. In a week we're driving an old van full of our stuff across the states next week.

it will take you a couple years, but don't get discouraged.
 
#21 ·
we put in a purchase offer sight unseen, we saw lots of pics though. We looked at about 100 pics of the boat and the previous owners survey, and a detailed list of inventories. I talked to the PO and them seem ok, and they were using a reputable broker. Talked to the broker and he seemed like a nice guy. We put an offer in contingent on the boat being dropped in the water, it floating, the engine running, and the inventory all being there. It worked out fine.

Buying a boat is a crap shoot, a surveyor doesn't reduce risks, and if there is a problem down the road they will be no where to be seen. The only reason to survey a boat is to get insurance, and no one will insure you anyways.

Be diligent where you can be, and take a chance. Oh and lowball, making an offer on a boat that won't be gone over by a surveyor or need a test sail, and is being done quickly with cash, holds value for the seller.

If you take all these courses and trips you'll never have enough money to go cruising.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Be diligent where you can be, and take a chance. Oh and lowball, making an offer on a boat that won't be gone over by a surveyor or need a test sail, and is being done quickly with cash, holds value for the seller.

If you take all these courses and trips you'll never have enough money to go cruising.
Of course a no-survey offer holds value for the seller because there are probably problems with the boat that could cancel the sale.
When buying your boat sight unseen, why did you bother to read the PO's survey if they are so worthless?
Taking a few classes from the CG Aux or Power Squadron is a very minor amount of money and if they can't afford that, they sure can't afford a boat and those classes are worth the time and minor expense.
 
#23 ·
All you need in a purchase offer is an out. (Ex: satisfied with test sail.) If you find something wrong with a boat, you can get out, irregardless of origin by saying you were unsatisfied with the test sail.

Surveys are useless, but if someone isn't willing to provide you with it when you ask as a potential buyer it says more about the seller than the boat.

Buying a boat is a crap shoot. You can buy a boat with teak decks that has zero leaks and lots of useful life left in them, and you can buy a boat with a glass deck that leaks like a sieve. Try to get as much info about the owner as you can, because that info will tell you more about the boat than the results of a survey. Surveys are for insurance companies to valuate replacement costs.

What I did was price in having to fix all the usual problems (decks, rigging, engine), and that's how I justified my lowball. We negotiated from there. Plus if you ask all the questions and they answer them, they don't know whether you're going to get a surveyor or not, so it's not in their interest to lie to you. If surveyors catch everything why are there so many situations of people fixing boat issues that they didn't foresee?

Like poker, negotiating the purchase of a boat is more about reading the person across the table than the cards.

Sorry about the courses comment, I grew up in a family of many generations of people working on the ocean. It is more important that you respect the sea and leave your ego on land than take a course about "the right way to do things". Just take your time and get to know your boat.



I digress, they wanted to know how to get a boat cheap. That's how I did it, and it worked out just fine. Most college grads can pick up sailing and boat navigation easily enough from books, youtube, and people at the dock. Why pay someone for the same thing unless you need the certificate to appease your insurance company.
 
#32 · (Edited)
Surveys are useless, but if someone isn't willing to provide you with it when you ask as a potential buyer it says more about the seller than the boat.
One point of the survey is to tell the buyer what is wrong with the boat and is usually performed by someone qualified to know. The buyer can then take the survey and have some concrete negotiating power when making an offer on the boat. We used the survey to determine if we could live with the expense of the repairs that we then knew needed to be done and as a checklist for doing the repairs. It listed the most crucial items that needed to be fixed and those were completed first.

The seller may or may not have a recent survey as the onus is on the buyer to obtain one. As the current owner of the boat for which I paid $300+ to have a survey done when I was the then buyer, there's no way I'm just going to hand it over to some yahoo too cheap to get an updated survey. If you can't afford the survey, you can't afford the boat and the subsequent cost of upkeep. Besides that, the survey is good for the time at which it was performed. Five, ten, or even one year later too much may have changed (i.e., the boat may have been damaged, equipment removed/upgraded, etc) to make it a useful tool for the buyer. Neither do I want to risk selling a boat and handing over an X-years old survey and have to deal with some crazy next owner returning to complain that this that or the other was no longer working, no longer on the boat, or otherwise differed from the survey.

That said, I also consider how complicated the boat is to determine if I'm going to get a survey. I paid little for my first boat, a 22 footer, and did not have a survey. It had simple systems and no galley or head, BUT, I did have an experienced sailor look it over for me to determine if it would at least float and had all the bits I needed to sail.

And creedance is correct. Those teenagers sailing around the world had sponsors, support, state of the art equipment and had been sailing all of their lives.

No one is saying not to follow your dreams. What most are trying to say is don't put yourselves or others in danger for no reason. You can still have a great adventure while being a responsible boater.
 
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#24 ·
As far as classes go, I'm 58 years old and have been boating my whole life. My grandfather was a fish boat captain with the Menhaden fleet out of Reedville, Va. My father served aboard a CG cutter in the South Pacific during WW II.
I've taken 5 courses in the past 16 years, one with the CG Aux and 4 with the Power Squadron, of which I am a member. All classes were enjoyable, worthwhile and I learned a few things to boot.
Yes, I learned many years ago that if you don't respect the water, it could cost you big time.
 
#26 ·
OK, let's back up. No where did I suggest that they shouldn't follow their dream. All I'm suggesting is a pathway to achieve it.
These guys are looking at 29 months until they buy a boat and sail the islands.
29 Months! That's plenty of time to buy a sailing dinghy to get some time on the water. Maybe take a few classes. possibly spend some time on other people's larger boats. And since boating classes aren't always just for newbies, they just might meet some nice sailors willing to take them on their boats.
29 months to learn and get good experience that will make their adventure even more memorable and maybe safer.
 
#27 ·
I think the party line is to recommend due dilligence in the purchase of a boat. I agree that boats run the spectrum in quality and condition, but that's what the survey is for. With that, the survey is only part of a larger process of vetting potential boats.

I agree with a lot of what YouMeAndTheD is saying about getting out there and following the dream, but failing to hire a surveyor could leave these guys stuck with a dock queen that needs more work than they can afford. Sailing courses are nothing compared to the expense of a boat with a list of hidden issues.

I'm 30, have purchased 4 boats so far, 3 of those were 36 footers. I've sailed the Hawaiian Islands, the Chesepeake, the Atlantic south to Florida, and am outfitting for a year in the Caribbean. I know first hand the dangers associated with skipping out on the marine surveyor. You could have the greatest PO on earth, but reading them doesn't get you much when they've only owned the boat for a year, and that's assuming you'll even be able to talk to the PO. A lot of brokers don't like potential buyers meeting up with the PO.

Just pretend the boat is going to cost 10's of thousands of dollars and act accordingly when purchasing.
 
#28 ·
yea, it's all luck and you need to pay a used car salesman er, broker/surveyor cause they both have special powers and extra eyes and fingers and your toooooooooooooo dumb to figure it out on your own . you might as well just stay home and die of old age rather than live it. my bad.

14 year old girls are saiing around the world, alone ! your right your probably not up to the task.
Probably should just forget it ,or buy the boat and never leave the dock for fear of the unknown and all the advice of the other "sailors" you will meet at the extremey affordable USCG and other "classes" be sure to get your west marine card and cuzy.
I listened to self proclaimed sailors for a decade tell me all they new and all the experience blah blah ... then I stopped listening and did what all the naysayers said couldn't or were too sceered to do.
glad I did, met plenty of others doing it on everything imaginabe in every cove,bay,river,canal and inlet from buffalo to tampa (3-4 times) and back .
many of these folks were at it for years and years cruising all over the world some had it all ,some had less than nothing !
families,singles,men,women. some w/ pets,kids.
All kinds, great people,extraordinay experiences .
My only regret is listening to the internet captains telling me what I couldn't do .

please, it's just sailing .
 
#29 · (Edited)
yea, it's all luck and you need to pay a used car salesman er, broker/surveyor cause they both have special powers and extra eyes and fingers and your toooooooooooooo dumb to figure it out on your own . you might as well just stay home and die of old age rather than live it. my bad.

14 year old girls are saiing around the world, alone ! your right your probably not up to the task.
Probably should just forget it ,or buy the boat and never leave the dock for fear of the unknown and all the advice of the other "sailors" you will meet at the extremey affordable USCG and other "classes" be sure to get your west marine card and cuzy.
I listened to self proclaimed sailors for a decade tell me all they new and all the experience blah blah ... then I stopped listening and did what all the naysayers said couldn't or were too sceered to do.
glad I did, met plenty of others doing it on everything imaginabe in every cove,bay,river,canal and inlet from buffalo to tampa (3-4 times) and back .
many of these folks were at it for years and years cruising all over the world some had it all ,some had less than nothing !
families,singles,men,women. some w/ pets,kids.
All kinds, great people,extraordinay experiences .
My only regret is listening to the internet captains telling me what I couldn't do .

please, it's just sailing .
I hope that wasn't a response to my post. If I read the OP's post correctly, it was something like "we've never done this before, here's what we're thinking of doing, etc". I think recommendations to chose a boat carefully are warranted.

As for the "just get out there and do it" phylosophy, I could not agree more. Do it now, while you can if you're so inclined.

But Joe, you've been around long enough I'm sure you're familiar with Ronnie Simpson's story. He just went out there and did it with no knowledge and look how far he got (about half way).

As for the 16 and 14 year olds, look at the amount of prep work went in to their boats. I haven't seen their budgets, but I garauntee they were significant. These weren't kids who picked a boat and rolled, they had a fair amount of coaching and expert guidance in both outfitting and learning to sail. Now, I'm not saying these guys need sailing instruction. I've never had any, and I haven't balled up a boat yet. I'm just saying that before these kids headed off they and their support teams made sure they were prepared.

I'm not going to get into a debate over whether the OPs should be smart about the money they are looking to spend. I say go for, but be smart about it.
 
#30 ·
Thanks creedence for saying what I was thinking.
As far as those kids that sail around the world...I'd say they had more than a "fair" amount of training and expert guidance...they had years of it. They probably had more experience at 10 than most of us have at 30 or 40.
 
#31 · (Edited)
I bought my first big boat in Hawaii at 23. I had very little experience with sailing, and NO blue water experience whatsoever. I had no clue how to buy a boat or what to look for. Fortunately, I had a good broker, I hired a good surveyor, found this forum, and learned as much as I could. I picked it all up at my own pace, with no courses, and went on successively longer sails. I agree there is value in the courses, and if you want to expand your base of knowledge, that's a great way to do it. If you have the money, and want to learn from the ground up, courses are a great way to go.

I think the folks on this site who are beyond the "young dumb and sailing" demographic are a bit more conservative; but I think by in large, its because they have experienced enough to understand the value in conservatism. Whether you decide to take their advice is up to you, but I would at least hear them out.

When I was buying my first, no one told me not to do it, and I don't see any problems with anyone else with very little, or even no sailing experience buying a boat and heading out. In fact, I'm one of the more liberal members here (as far as sailing anyway). I think if the boat is sound, and you take things at the right pace, there's no reason you cant do it. Just be patient and don't exceed your capabilities in the process. The guy I ended up selling that boat to was another dreamer, but he took it too fast and sank it off a reef in Waikiki within ONE WEEK of purchasing it. The state fined him $100,000 for salvage, and damage to the reef.

As Joe mentioned, it's just sailing, but that doesn't mean you can (or should) sail across oceans without proper preparation.

But I still say you should draw on experience when buying the boat. Whether that's a surveyor, or someone who knows the ins and outs of used boats. Like I said, pretend your about to spend a big pile of money and act accordingly.
 
#34 ·
The seller may or may not have a recent survey as the onus is on the buyer to obtain one. As the current owner of the boat for which I paid $300+ to have a survey done when I was the then buyer, there's no way I'm just going to hand it over to some yahoo too cheap to get an updated survey. If you can't afford the survey, you can't afford the boat and the subsequent cost of upkeep
.

It's not about affording a survey, it's about the value of a survey done by an individual who is just another chump who attended a 6 week survey school/class and PAID for the certification. Are surveys guarranteed to find any and all deficiencies-no
do the come with ANY guarrantees ? =doubtful
Unlike an actual license say a pilots license or even a captains license where actual demonstration and testing and minimum time requirements are required anyone can attend a surveyor class that has a credit card no previous boating experience is required just a willingness to pay the entry dues.
My position is that if your to simple or dumb to figure out if the boat floats or the head works , your probably not going to be able to handle much of anything else of any consequence. like grounding,weather,sailing etc. and will probably need a host of other rip-off services that have sprung up around recreational boating to aid the very ones who DO in fact raise the element of DANGER to those that are capable.

Those teenagers sailing around the world had sponsors, support, state of the art equipment and had been sailing all of their lives.
Ms. Dekker , by her own admission had been sailing since she was 6 , 14-6= 8 8 years of sailing and she circumnavigated. so she was NOT sailing "her whole life" only the last 8
and stated the most trepidatious part of the circ. was noy yhe ocean,storms,etc. but rather the harrassment of her gov't proir to departure.
. the OP was not contemplating a circumnavigation and had considered a pacific passage but decided against it in favor of a carib. cruise.
hardly going off w/out consideration.
As per lack of the almighty experience often touted, try reading the bumfuzzle blog- no experience and completed a 4 year circ. against the "advice" of many internet sailors, and there still at it w/ children aboard to boot!! luck? yea apparently four consecutive years worth and counting. all the while the internet captains cringing in fear at the dock.

No one is saying not to follow your dreams. What most are trying to say is don't put yourselves or others in danger for no reason. You can still have a great adventure while being a responsible boater.
and instilling unnesecary fear and attempting to make sailing much more than it is,sailing. a carib. cruise could be accomplished on a sunfish ! as a matter of fact didn't a guy kayak through the carib?
reading the repeated posts in response to people curious about sailing and cruising and being told how dangerous it is and how vital USCG classes are and such is becoming laughable.
ALL those types of classes I have been to are geared toward mental midgets with too much disposable income and too little common sense.
almost as rediculous as when the coast guard asked me if I was SURE I was aground in Shallotte inlet , while I careened over at about 30% in 2' of water. waiting for the tide to come back in to float off. and you would suggest that I take sailing safety classes from them? for what ?

too cheap for a survey? hardly , too smart to hand over my hard earned to some "Yahoo" w/ a crackerjack paid in full "certification" in surveying= most definetaly.
 
#35 ·
I think another way to look at it is from a risk vs reward perspective. The scenario: Buying a boat, figuring it out with no assistance, and heading out.

Risks (worst case): Loss of boat, death, finacial liability beyond the price of the boat and equipment.

Reward: Saved money on the survey, learned about the systems along the way (assuming you made it that far- see link to follow), saved time, saved money on courses.

The problem I see is that the potential risks of setting out with minimal preparation far outweigh the reward of money and time saved. I think we all agree these guys should definitely get out there and sail. But we may have to agree to disagree on the amount of preparation they should put into executing their plan.

As I mentioned above, I sold my boat in Hawaii to a guy who paid cash, and was beginning his dream of living aboard a sailboat. He wasn't planning a trip of any kind, he just wanted to live aboard and sail his own boat around Waikiki. He owned the boat for 7 (no lie) days...

Nautical Mishaps, Maritime Calamities: NO POLLUTION THREAT FROM GROUNDED WAIKIKI SAILBOAT

I think suggesting ways to learn about sailing before setting off is warranted. In fact, it's warranted simply because they came on here and asked how they could gain the knowledge necessary to take this trip. I also think suggesting they take advantage of an experienced eye to aid them in the purchase of their investment is warranted as well.
 
#36 ·
creedence,
I've been re-reading some of JOE'S posts. We really show bow to his superior intellect.
His knowledge and experience knows no bounds...or is it his ego that has no bounds? Not sure which. Just reading his extensive bio speaks volumes about his IQ! He probably skipped going to high school and college because there was nothing they could teach him as he already knows everything.
Wow!
 
#37 ·
creedence,
I've been re-reading some of JOE'S posts. We really show bow to his superior intellect.
His knowledge and experience knows no bounds...or is it his ego that has no bounds? Not sure which. Just reading his extensive bio speaks volumes about his IQ! He probably skipped going to high school and college because there was nothing they could teach him as he already knows everything.
Wow!
I 'm sorry my opinions don't sit well with you.
I feel worse thet you have chosen to attempt to mock and personally attack me in an apparent moment of self doubt.
I'm sure there are many things I may never know, but I can and do learn,daily.
what specifically offends you so ? that I expound a different approach than you?
that I will not simply agree with you ?
Can you differentiate between Ego and confidence? aparently not.
I lived many years w/ people telling me what I couldn't or was incapable of doing. of course that changed when I did those very things (for me,not for the detractors).
I've never had/made alot of money ( I suspect I never will),but I've lived alot of life. of my own making.
I encourage others to be bold and chase ther dreams as if thier very lives depended on it, as I believe it does.
I suspect my life is half over at this stage of the game, and I've got alot more living to do in a very short amount of time.

what's you story er, bio ?
do tell.

PS . please excuse my poor spelling (after all ,I apparently skipped school !)
 
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