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  Topic Review (Newest First)
3 Weeks Ago 12:36 PM
VF84Sluggo
Re: Is the sailboat market really this bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post
, I think the key to really enjoying older boat ownership is to enjoy the maintenance - which I do, mostly. I wasn't enjoying working on the engine for two weekends from the lazarette, hence the mostly!
That is exactly it. A buddy of mine loves maintaining his boat, calls it his "happy Place." As it should be.

If I was retired (or independently wealthy, or a guy who can make 'tens of thousands of dollars' a day on a cell phone and iPad) I'd still have a sailboat. Wish I was, but I'm not that guy. My job takes me out of town 3 or 4 days a week, every week. So, when I do have free time to sail, I'd rather sail than do (and pay for) maintenance.
3 Weeks Ago 12:25 PM
sailpower
Re: Is the sailboat market really this bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
One thing to keep in mind is that the housing market is cyclical. You will find times that for short periods of time the market will indeed rise much more than inflation. If you happen to buy and sell during this time you can indeed do quite well. Being cyclical you are also exposed to buying high and selling low (think 2008)
I understand very well that the market is cyclical. I sold my last home, a townhouse in MD that I paid 162k for in 1994 for 410k in 2007 after putting 50k into it.

I have been renting in FL ever since which has worked out very well.

So, I have been fortunate not to have ever lost money on a home and have actually done very well since buying my first home in 1972 (only made 8k on that one). Lucky timing.

I am considering buying again as the downward market adjusts up but am going to wait until after the next election to see which path the country chooses.
3 Weeks Ago 12:15 PM
travlineasy
Re: Is the sailboat market really this bad?

I think the biggest determining factor is where the money comes from for purchasing a sailboat, or any boat - it's leisure money, funds that are over and above those used for the normal, every day expenses of living. Well, there isn't a whole lot of that money available these days, at least not for Joe Sixpack, the person that at one time could easily afford to purchase a boat and go sailing, fishing, cruising, etc...

I just talked with a friend that works for Maryland DNR Park Service. He said where he works, boating activity is at the lowest point it has been in years, on week days the launch ramp is pretty much not used at all, and now the park he works at is only open weekends at the park store, which until recently was open 7 days a week during the summer months. This has a tremendous trickle-down effect, and I see it on the upper reaches of Chesapeake Bay all the time. There have been lots of weekdays where when I go on a day-sail, I have the entire bay to myself. No crabbers, no recreational anglers, no sailors, only a few tugs towing or pushing barges down the bay. A decade ago, every summer day produced lots of boating activity in this area of the Chesapeake. And, there are only a handful of fishing tackle stores still in business, and the same is true for boat dealers.

All the best,

Gary
3 Weeks Ago 12:13 PM
MarkSF
Re: Is the sailboat market really this bad?

Good points, I think the key to really enjoying older boat ownership is to enjoy the maintenance - which I do, mostly. I wasn't enjoying working on the engine for two weekends from the lazarette, hence the mostly!
3 Weeks Ago 12:08 PM
VF84Sluggo
Re: Is the sailboat market really this bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy View Post
Very interesting discussion - over the past 30 years probably bought and sold over 50 sailboats - from Sunfish to a nolder Cal 36 - at best broke even , but never lost a lot - always bought low and sold low.

Fiancially buying an older smaller sailboat ( 30 feet and under) and keeping it in a slip - just does not make much financial sense - Slip rental along the coast in Florida - from $9ft to $15ft per month.

For example - you can pick up an older Hunter 30 for $8000 - your slip rental with taxes and electric will easily run $300/month. You are now paying $3600/year to keep an $8,000 boat. the numbers seem to make more sense if you own a bigger, newer boat and use it more like a second home/condo.

I keep a small sailboat now on a lake in Central Florida - slip rental is $60/month - includes water and electric, would like a bigger boat - but further to go to it, 4-5 times the costs to keep it in a slip on the coast at an average marina. Even if someone gave me a boat for free I would have to really consider if it is worth it.

I think the older , not up to date boats from the 60's and 70's are all most giveaways - lots of up keep and expenses, most sailors who have the money don't want to spend their time fixing something up - that leaves the ones who want a boat but have no money - these boats seem to switch hands between them as they find they can't affford a slip - many then end up anchored out and left.

The younger generation likes adventure - they may buy a sailboat to explore the Bahamas or Baja for 6 months but they then come back and sell it and move on to the next adventure - I don't see them as long term boat owners.

The economics have changed for sailboats - the top 1% can afford the new ones , the rest will struggle with all the related costs to boating - it certainly still can be done but it has to be a very high priority in your budget - which it just isn't for 99.5% of the population. The days of a young family buying a Catalina 25 and enjoying daysailing - are gone, there are still some out there but compared to 20 years ago - alot less.
I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head here. When I started looking at the fixed costs of slip and insurance, then the regular maintenance from engine stuff, rigging, bottom jobs, waxing the darn thing, etc., then pile on unscheduled/unexpected maintenance and repairs (look at SmackDaddy's engine ordeal for example; I'm just not rich enough to absorb an unexpected hit like that)...wow, talk about a dead short in the hip pocket!!! Took the fun away big-time for me.

Went back to renting. Sure, I gave up the convenience of having a boat to use when and for as long as I please, and I do miss that. Having to be back in by a certain time gets limiting. But I balance that with knowing that if anything is in need of repair, or if the gel coat is getting chalky, it's not my worry or expense or time-sucking black hole.

Hated to sell the boat, but financially for me it was the thing to do. Maybe I'll buy a sailboat once I retire and can use it more; and have the time to fix things rather than "call a guy."
3 Weeks Ago 12:03 PM
seaner97
Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
You also said that meaningful appreciation didn't occur until 1998. That certainly was not true in the Boston market.

I purchased a home for 39K in 1976 and sold it for 124k in 1984. I then purchased a house for 199k in 1984 and could have sold it for 450k in 1988. My wife kept it after our divorce and sold it in a corrected 1991 market for 300k.
One thing to keep in mind is that the housing market is cyclical. You will find times that for short periods of time the market will indeed rise much more than inflation. If you happen to buy and sell during this time you can indeed do quite well. Being cyclical you are also exposed to buying high and selling low (think 2008)
True, but a boat is a depreciating asset. What you put in is largely not coming back. So I second the view that you have to look at it for the joy it brings. It's also why I would never buy a new, expensive boat when I can equally enjoy and old pretty boat that cost me a fraction (that has a denominator larger than 10). But I am also one of those people that enjoys old houses, and find the new starter castles Jeff H is being asked to build abhorrent. I know a finish carpenter who is working on a 36M single family vacation home right now on MDI. And that is not a typo. I dislike paying taxes as much as the next guy, but a 36M vacation home?
3 Weeks Ago 12:00 PM
MarkSF
Re: Is the sailboat market really this bad?

Here is how I would put it : "There may be periods where house prices rise, but over the long term, their value, in real terms, remains steady".
3 Weeks Ago 11:39 AM
robert sailor
Re: Is the sailboat market really this bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailpower View Post
You also said that meaningful appreciation didn't occur until 1998. That certainly was not true in the Boston market.

I purchased a home for 39K in 1976 and sold it for 124k in 1984. I then purchased a house for 199k in 1984 and could have sold it for 450k in 1988. My wife kept it after our divorce and sold it in a corrected 1991 market for 300k.
One thing to keep in mind is that the housing market is cyclical. You will find times that for short periods of time the market will indeed rise much more than inflation. If you happen to buy and sell during this time you can indeed do quite well. Being cyclical you are also exposed to buying high and selling low (think 2008)
3 Weeks Ago 11:17 AM
sailpower
Re: Is the sailboat market really this bad?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkSF View Post

I challenge anyone to provide evidence that house values show a long term trend of increase in values in real terms.

"the fact that homes do generally appreciate in value, and so they are considered an investment by most." Again, this is a myth.
You also said that meaningful appreciation didn't occur until 1998. That certainly was not true in the Boston market.

I purchased a home for 39K in 1976 and sold it for 124k in 1984. I then purchased a house for 199k in 1984 and could have sold it for 450k in 1988. My wife kept it after our divorce and sold it in a corrected 1991 market for 300k.
3 Weeks Ago 10:53 AM
cdy
Re: Is the sailboat market really this bad?

Very interesting discussion - over the past 30 years probably bought and sold over 50 sailboats - from Sunfish to a nolder Cal 36 - at best broke even , but never lost a lot - always bought low and sold low.

Fiancially buying an older smaller sailboat ( 30 feet and under) and keeping it in a slip - just does not make much financial sense - Slip rental along the coast in Florida - from $9ft to $15ft per month.

For example - you can pick up an older Hunter 30 for $8000 - your slip rental with taxes and electric will easily run $300/month. You are now paying $3600/year to keep an $8,000 boat. the numbers seem to make more sense if you own a bigger, newer boat and use it more like a second home/condo.

I keep a small sailboat now on a lake in Central Florida - slip rental is $60/month - includes water and electric, would like a bigger boat - but further to go to it, 4-5 times the costs to keep it in a slip on the coast at an average marina. Even if someone gave me a boat for free I would have to really consider if it is worth it.

I think the older , not up to date boats from the 60's and 70's are all most giveaways - lots of up keep and expenses, most sailors who have the money don't want to spend their time fixing something up - that leaves the ones who want a boat but have no money - these boats seem to switch hands between them as they find they can't affford a slip - many then end up anchored out and left.

The younger generation likes adventure - they may buy a sailboat to explore the Bahamas or Baja for 6 months but they then come back and sell it and move on to the next adventure - I don't see them as long term boat owners.

The economics have changed for sailboats - the top 1% can afford the new ones , the rest will struggle with all the related costs to boating - it certainly still can be done but it has to be a very high priority in your budget - which it just isn't for 99.5% of the population. The days of a young family buying a Catalina 25 and enjoying daysailing - are gone, there are still some out there but compared to 20 years ago - alot less.
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