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|02-01-2012 12:29 PM
If you ask 10 people what is a good blue water cruiser you will get 20 answers.
Unless you were really going for the low end market, why not use cross grain balsa? Or honeycomb?
If I was to lay down cash for a new boat, I would look for self righting; a domed cabin, opposite the curvature of the hull, would make the boat very unstable upside down.
Obviously the full keels of yesteryear are history, but while the narrow fin keels are cheaper faster and more popular these days, a compromise of a keel integreated into the hull for solidity, but with a more modern shape for maneuverability, but with a lot of weight low for stability. (recently a production cruiser caspsized and didn't self right, exactly the reputation you don't want).
It's hard to put into words the feeling of "yes my boat, may never break the COLREGS line, but it's not the boat, but ties to land that's keeping me from sailing on to China if I wanted to". It's more of a symbol of freedom, the ability to go anywhere, coupled with ego "my boat is capable of crossing an ocean".
If you can capture the essense of this feeling without compromising performance or safety you will take over the market.
As has been pointed out any boat can be rolled even in a bay, if a bad wave hits it wrong, boats get knocked down in sudden storms less than 1/4 mile from the marina where I sail.
If you can build a boat that can take a knockdown, or self right after a capsize without losing the rigging, or flooding the cabin, with tried and true "blue water features, like lee cloths, well secured, self locking doors, and cabinets, so the dishes and knives dont fly around during a storm, and a solid enough hull, and keel that you can take a grounding, or a collision without falling apart like confetti, you rightly call it, (at least in my book), a production blue water.
I often wondered why don't new boats have a one piece hatch board made of lexan, that recesses into the hull with a teflon sliding seal, and a bidirectional locking pin.
Dorade boxes that have a plastic spring loaded float so they stop water when inverted.
Built in solar panels, (not a lot, too expensive, just a couple), for fans, and battery charging.
A modern electrical system, with a fault warning panel, (used to be big bucks, now in the semiconductor age, pennies to build in).
Built in 12v appliances.
An idea, I don't know how practical, is to mold dinghy into removable cockpit. Locked in place the cockpit is the dinghy storage for a crossing, (now you don't have to worry where to put it). After you get to destination, unlock and launch it off the back. Leaving an empty open space like the back of a pickup, except round. (Yes your dinghy will look a lot like the tail end of a sailboat).
Don't worry about it being stolen, no one is going to go after something that ugly, besides they have to figure out the locking mechanism, ... in the dark. The dinghy outboard, is also your backup propulsion in case the diesel dies....Just an idea
|02-01-2012 11:56 AM
This style of boat is more telling of what is coming out of Europe. Frankly, I like the look and the what they entail. Something that is easy to sail, quick, so I can get to the destination reasonably quick, especially in light airs as I have around where I sail. Even if I do only do what is known as coastal sailing. If I can gain a couple of extra knots over an old shoe, then it allows me a greater range to travel before I hit adverse currents etc. every 6-7 hrs or so here in puget sound/salish sea area.
I can not afford one of these new boats, but maybe someday I can either used or new. I doubt there will be too many in the states, as folks seem to think one needs 2" of iron or equal on the hull, full keels etc to be blue water, much less coastal cruise at times.
|02-01-2012 11:45 AM
There have been ongoing discussions and threads on this forum regarding what makes a good bluewater cruising boat. It is frequently pointed out to those of us who own current design production boats such as the Beneteau, Jeanneau, Hunter, and Catalina that our boats are strictly coastal cruising boats at best and floating condos at the worst. Further, in no uncertain terms, we are advised that they are unsuited for extended offshore "bluewater" cruising because, among other things, wide sterns that make it hard to steer in following seas, large open cockpits that are hard to move about in storms, large open areas down below without handrails, grab bars, or adequate sea berths. Add to that too light construction in the hulls and standing rigging, flat bottoms and wide beams said to give a bad ride in a storm, short fin keels and rudders that make it hard to hold a course and are subject to damage, insufficient ballast to assure proper selfrighting and stability. In short, many seem to favor very closely the designs of the late 1960's and 1970's. I own a Catalina and personally think current boat designs are getting a undeserved beating in this regard, but I do agree that many of current design features do seem to be aimed more at coast cruising and relatively short offshore cruising.
The Walkabout series seems more extreme and looks to me to be more of an ocean racer than a bluewater cruiser. If those issues that "bluewater" sailors have with the current production boats that I described are valid, then the Wallabout design seems to have compounded the errors in regard to being considered a "bluewater cruising boat".
However, new ideas, even really good ones, often get lots of opposition by those resisting change. Time will tell whether you are onto something good or not.
|02-01-2012 06:46 AM
I thank you all very much for your replies.
With my post I would really like to know what you think about the fast blue water criuser theme.
This is to introduce our new project and to start a discussion on which specs are mandatory on a blue water criuser. Obviously I'll explain you our choices, if you are interested.
Our mai goal was to stay "on" the wave instead to been sucked "into" the wave. Our glass/pvc/glass composite and our hull lines are to archieve this goal with a light, planing but sturdy hull.
Keel is fixed to the hull not only with bolts but the box is trapezoidal in vertical and horizontal way to ensure better alignment and better adhesion due to friction.
Any other advice or observation? It's exciting sharing opinion with you.
thank you so much
|02-01-2012 01:00 AM
Post starts out as a question and looks more like an ad as I read further.
Was that the intention?
Sidebar: that keel design is a real kelp-catcher.
|01-31-2012 11:30 PM
Kind of a scary build picture
|01-31-2012 07:57 PM
my name is Alessandro Suardi and I work in XXXXXXXXXXXX as a product manager.
This post is to ask you which are the best qualities required to a boat to be a bestseller blue water cruiser.
What are you ideas? Looking forward reading them!
Always trade winds!
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX Removed links and Commercial Information in violation of Forum rules. Jeff_H [quote]
Long keel, attached rudder (don't trust new ideas like spade rudders) heavy, and preferably 30+ years old to fit the budget.
Unfortunately there is more truth to the above than you would imagine. There is a recent thread on Sailnet where some boast about the blistering speed of the Westsail 32, a design as modern as some will tolerate.
But seriously, the keel on the Walkabout looks more vulnerable than any I have ever seen.
It is advanced in some ways - design, laminations - but archaic in using plywood in way of fastenings as many builders did decades ago - and shouldn't have.
Not the type of boat that sells in the North American market.
In the European market I think RM (plywood epoxy - twin keels to please the above poster - and Pogo (Pogo 12.50 elected European performance sailboat of 2012) show this type of boat has a market. But I would much sooner have a keel as in the Pogo than the line catcher on the Walkabout.
|01-31-2012 07:30 PM
Steel is global. Twin keels Priceless. High bulwarks add safety.
|01-31-2012 07:11 PM
Deck in sandwich composed by 8mm marine plywood,20mm PVC foam 75 kg / m3, biaxial glass fiber
The hull is made of sandwich composed by 10mm
plywood, 20mm PVC foam 75 kg / m3 and quadriaxial
glass fiber laminated under vacuum with epoxy resin.
The keel weights 3200 kg and is composed by a 70mm
thick solid steel blade, lead bulb and wooden casing
(draft 2.15mt). The keel is laminated with 3 layers of
600g/mq biaxial glass fabric laminated with epoxy
Your boats designs seem to be on the race side of things and while there is no detail of how the plywood and wood is used in the layups
Plywood cores have a well deserved BAD long term track record in the USA
|01-31-2012 06:50 PM
Blue water cruiser - Walkabout questions
my name is Alessandro Suardi and I work in XXXXXX as a product manager.
This post is to ask you which are the best qualities required to a boat to be a bestseller blue water criuser.
Reading posts around it’s clear that a blue water cruiser has to be sturdy, reliable, easy to sail even windward and as comfortable as possible both sailing and at anchor. Obviously a yacht like this has to compete on market with US, France and Germany mass production boats.
Stated the above, I think that only composite (pvc or wood/epoxy) or aluminum are suitable for the purpose: they allow a one-off, highly customized building in an easy and cheap way.
The XXXXXX goes straight in this way, with the possibility to obtain a sturdy composite with carbon inserts in the “crucial” zones. This guarantee a lighter final weight compared to aluminum that allow, given the final displacement, to add lead in the bulb that means more righting moment available for better windward sailing.
A composite hull can be also repaired everywhere in the world also without electrical tooling: some spare glass cloth and some epoxy can easily replace almost every detail both structural or aesthetic. It’s also electrically and thermally insulated ad does not corrode.
Furthemore hull-deck and hull-keel joint are structural and built like this they restore the integrity of the solid hull, making the boat more safe, more rigid and more dry. Obviously it’s possible to have, optional, both variable depth keel and water ballast.
About hull design, David Reard draw a planing hull with a single chine that guarantees elevated average speed. That will reduce long passages time even by days and allows to run before the sea even under storm jib.
Watertight bulkheads located in the bow and just after aft berths guarantee high resistance to collisions. Bilge space from keel to the bow is watertight too, giving other collision protection.
Rudder stocks are well over rest waterline and however located the stern watertight zone, enhancing security.
Internal accomodation are roomy and highly customizable, to meet both couple and family needs.
What are you ideas? Looking forward reading them!
Always trade winds!
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