SailNet Community - Reply to Topic

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000
 Not a Member? 


Thread: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000 Reply to Thread
Title:
  

By choosing to post the reply below you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Topic Review (Newest First)
05-30-2014 10:29 PM
fallard
Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000

Tracking down the FCC rules on this topic isn't easy. We can imagine that the typical boater doesn't have the time or inclination to wade through arcane FCC documents and may inadvertently be non-compliant at times.

Agree with your Narragansett Bay-Block Island example and the observation that Form 605 is not instructive on requiring VHF as a prerequisite for other RF communications gear.
05-30-2014 04:12 AM
SVAuspicious
Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
I haven't found the government source document, but the Gordon West intro to SSB (http://www.kp44.org/ftp/WestIntroToSSB.pdf) states, "Radio rules require that you must have a marine VHF radio in your vessel before you can install a marine SSB transceiver." You can also see Don Casey's quote, "The lowly VHF radio remains the most versatile communication device for a boat. It is the only communication device many pleasure boats are equipped with, and it is required by law before you can put any other marine radio aboard." (BoatUS - BoatTech - VHF Basics by Don Casey).

Regarding the use of one band over another, go to eCFR ? Code of Federal Regulations to see Title 47: Telecommunication, Part 80--Stations in the Maritime Services, specifically:

"§80.367 General uses—radiotelephony.
.
.
(f) Ship and coast stations authorized to use frequencies in both the 2000-27500 kHz and 156-162 MHz bands must not use frequencies in the 2000-27500 kHz band for communications with any other station which is within the VHF service range." (Note: 2000 - 27500 kHz is the marine MF-HF SSB "band")


Bottom line: if you've got SSB and are legal, you also have VHF and are obligated to use it instead of SSB when in VHF range.
Fascinating. I learned something. Thank you, and thanks for doing the homework in the CFR.

Given that there is a technical error on the same page of Gordon's text as the "VHF radio first" I take that with a grain of salt, but I also noted in the same section of the CFR as your citation:

Quote:
§80.367 General uses—radiotelephony.
.
.
(d) Frequencies in the 2000-27500 kHz band will be authorized only to ship stations that in addition are authorized to use frequencies in the 156-162 MHz band.
Now we can quibble over what "authorized" connotes but this could easily be the basis for the statement that a VHF is required before installing other radios. If there are no other requirements elsewhere in Part 80 it only applies to MF/HF (SSB) relative to VHF. That would mean you can have a radar, Inmarsat, and EPIRB without a VHF but not an SSB. *grin*

The term "service range" is used three times in part 80, each time in a different context and not ever defined. I'd like to think that the extended practical range of Rescue 21 does not meet the intent of "service range." The common general range of 20-30 miles line of sight is probably the intent. Where range is reduced by topography I would hope "service range" would take that into account. I can think of a number of anchorages within just a few miles of one another that are out of VHF range of one another but that are easily within MF or low HF range.

As a practical matter this boils down to the following: two cruisers sitting a few miles apart in Narragansett Bay should not be chatting on 2079 kHz if they can hear one another on VHF. Add another cruiser at Block Island and the communication is permissible.

Also as a practical matter the nice folks at the FCC license bureau aren't enforcing the requirement with Form 605. That means compliance is up to the owner/operator.
05-30-2014 12:31 AM
fallard
Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
I would value a specific citation whether a link to an official web site or a CFR section. You said before you have seen multiple references. Please share.

Again - I have never seen a regulation that says one band (VHF) is to be used over another (MF/HF).

Finally I haven't seen the FCC Jan 72 rule you refer to at all. Please provide a citation.

There is an FCC representative on a USCG Task Force I sit on. If you give me something to work with I'll follow up.

I haven't found the government source document, but the Gordon West intro to SSB (http://www.kp44.org/ftp/WestIntroToSSB.pdf) states, "Radio rules require that you must have a marine VHF radio in your vessel before you can install a marine SSB transceiver." You can also see Don Casey's quote, "The lowly VHF radio remains the most versatile communication device for a boat. It is the only communication device many pleasure boats are equipped with, and it is required by law before you can put any other marine radio aboard." (BoatUS - BoatTech - VHF Basics by Don Casey).

Regarding the use of one band over another, go to eCFR ? Code of Federal Regulations to see Title 47: Telecommunication, Part 80--Stations in the Maritime Services, specifically:

"§80.367 General uses—radiotelephony.
.
.
(f) Ship and coast stations authorized to use frequencies in both the 2000-27500 kHz and 156-162 MHz bands must not use frequencies in the 2000-27500 kHz band for communications with any other station which is within the VHF service range." (Note: 2000 - 27500 kHz is the marine MF-HF SSB "band")


Bottom line: if you've got SSB and are legal, you also have VHF and are obligated to use it instead of SSB when in VHF range.
05-29-2014 07:00 AM
SVAuspicious
Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
Certain vessels are not required to have VHF--we can agree on that. But we disagree that you can have SSB in US waters without having VHF. I have seen multiple references, including the USCG navigation website that say so.



I will agree that SSB can be used legitimately in close, but not for functions that can normally be handled by VHF.



I still haven't seen where the FCC January 1972 rule proscribing SSB transmission when VHF is available has been superceded. I've looked, but searching the FCC website for information on this topic has not been easy.
I would value a specific citation whether a link to an official web site or a CFR section. You said before you have seen multiple references. Please share.

Again - I have never seen a regulation that says one band (VHF) is to be used over another (MF/HF).

Finally I haven't seen the FCC Jan 72 rule you refer to at all. Please provide a citation.

There is an FCC representative on a USCG Task Force I sit on. If you give me something to work with I'll follow up.
05-28-2014 10:34 PM
fallard
Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
My apologies for contributing to thread drift.

To my knowledge there is no requirement to have a VHF radio at all for non-commercial boats below 20 meters in length, called "voluntarily equipped" vessels. If a rule exists that I'm not familiar with and can be cited I'll be more than happy to research the history of changes.

I have never heard of any proscription on the use of HF/SSB radio beyond proper licensure.

Perhaps you are confusing the the carriage requirements for GMDSS Sea Area A1. Those are carriage requirements and not operational limits and don't apply to voluntarily equipped vessels.

Though somewhat dated due to the termination of USCG MF coverage the following is relevant: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/gmdss...nal_boater.pdf .

You may note that the FCC form 605 for a ships station license ( http://transition.fcc.gov/Forms/Form605/605b.pdf section 18 ) does not indicate any requirement for VHF over or before MF or HF (conventionally referred to as SSB by recreational boaters).

Note that there is no carriage requirement stemming from the license so it is worth ticking all the boxes when applying for a ships station license.

In the context of voluntarily equipped vessels--clearly the SailNet constituency--you can carry or not whatever communications you like. If you do carry a VHF on a voluntary basis there are watchkeeping ("monitoring") requirements (often honored in the breach).

There is a good deal of HF/SSB communication within Sea Area A1 (by definition in VHF range). The USCG participates. FCC-licensed coast stations get a good bit of attention. Monitored licensees like Sailmail and Chris Parker shore stations regularly communicate with ship stations (both voluntarily equipped and those subject to GMDSS carriage requirements).

In short, I fear you are misinformed. If you can cite specific FCC or USCG requirements you believe apply I'll be happy to address them. Anything I don't know or can't support I can get help with from colleagues.
Certain vessels are not required to have VHF--we can agree on that. But we disagree that you can have SSB in US waters without having VHF. I have seen multiple references, including the USCG navigation website that say so. Form 605 is about licensing--not operational restrictions. My guess is that your license application will be rejected if you list SSB without having VHF. That said, it's hard to take the license application process seriously when everyone advises you to list everything you could possible put on your boat--whether you ever install it or not.

I will agree that SSB can be used legitimately in close, but not for functions that can normally be handled by VHF. When in extremis, we can all agree that you do what you have to do and apologize later, if necessary.

It has been 14 years since I had SSB, so maybe I haven't been paying attention to rules changes, but I still haven't seen where the FCC January 1972 rule proscribing SSB transmission when VHF is available has been superceded. I've looked, but searching the FCC website for information on this topic has not been easy.
05-28-2014 03:11 AM
SVAuspicious
Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
Currently the US Coast Guard requires a VHF radio before you can install a SSB. As of January 1972, the FCC did not permit SSB transmissions to shore stations or vessels within VHF range. I haven't seen a revision to that rule, but even if it has been relaxed, the Coast Guard advises the use of VHF for shorter distance communications.

Perhaps SV can cite an FCC revision to the earlier SSB rule.
My apologies for contributing to thread drift.

To my knowledge there is no requirement to have a VHF radio at all for non-commercial boats below 20 meters in length, called "voluntarily equipped" vessels. If a rule exists that I'm not familiar with and can be cited I'll be more than happy to research the history of changes.

I have never heard of any proscription on the use of HF/SSB radio beyond proper licensure.

Perhaps you are confusing the the carriage requirements for GMDSS Sea Area A1. Those are carriage requirements and not operational limits and don't apply to voluntarily equipped vessels.

Though somewhat dated due to the termination of USCG MF coverage the following is relevant: http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/gmdss...nal_boater.pdf .

You may note that the FCC form 605 for a ships station license ( http://transition.fcc.gov/Forms/Form605/605b.pdf section 18 ) does not indicate any requirement for VHF over or before MF or HF (conventionally referred to as SSB by recreational boaters).

Note that there is no carriage requirement stemming from the license so it is worth ticking all the boxes when applying for a ships station license.

In the context of voluntarily equipped vessels--clearly the SailNet constituency--you can carry or not whatever communications you like. If you do carry a VHF on a voluntary basis there are watchkeeping ("monitoring") requirements (often honored in the breach).

There is a good deal of HF/SSB communication within Sea Area A1 (by definition in VHF range). The USCG participates. FCC-licensed coast stations get a good bit of attention. Monitored licensees like Sailmail and Chris Parker shore stations regularly communicate with ship stations (both voluntarily equipped and those subject to GMDSS carriage requirements).

In short, I fear you are misinformed. If you can cite specific FCC or USCG requirements you believe apply I'll be happy to address them. Anything I don't know or can't support I can get help with from colleagues.
05-28-2014 02:15 AM
fallard
Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVAuspicious View Post
Not true.

An SSB only requires a license. The US VHF license waiver does not apply to an SSB. Of course the VHF is supposed to be licensed anyway if you leave the coastal US or communicate with foreign flag vessels.

Properly licensed, a marine SSB may be used anywhere.
Currently the US Coast Guard requires a VHF radio before you can install a SSB. As of January 1972, the FCC did not permit SSB transmissions to shore stations or vessels within VHF range. I haven't seen a revision to that rule, but even if it has been relaxed, the Coast Guard advises the use of VHF for shorter distance communications.

Perhaps SV can cite an FCC revision to the earlier SSB rule.
05-27-2014 07:23 AM
SVAuspicious
Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
BTW, it is my understanding that SSB is only legal when you are out of VHF range.
Not true.

An SSB only requires a license. The US VHF license waiver does not apply to an SSB. Of course the VHF is supposed to be licensed anyway if you leave the coastal US or communicate with foreign flag vessels.

Properly licensed, a marine SSB may be used anywhere.
05-26-2014 11:12 PM
fallard
Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean101 View Post
TAs
The second part of my cruising plan involves moving to the coast for coastal cruising and ocean experience while saving for an extended cruise. I've never done that sort of thing so I don't know what type of electronics I may need or want. AIS and possibly a radar package? Possibly. When I start venturing further afield I might even want an SSB set. I don't know at this point.
IMHO you need to consider radar compatibility for your chartplotter. AIS would be a secondary consideration because there will be a lot of smaller vessels that don't have AIS and won't have it for the foreseeable future. When you get caught in a fog, you will want a better idea of who else is out there and radar is your best bet. AIS would be more useful when you are dealing with larger commercial traffic, but that is probably a small percentage of the time.

If you have radar with MARPA (Mini Automatic Radar Plotting Aid), you can tag a radar contact and have your radar calculate its speed and course and alert you to a collision hazard. MARPA requires user interaction, but you need to be actively aware of your situation in a fog, anyway. My basic Raymarine radar has MARPA and I would guess that most other brands may have MARPA as well, but you might check on this when you are researching chartplotters and compatible radars.

BTW, it is my understanding that SSB is only legal when you are out of VHF range. I gave mine up years ago, after using it only during a single 3 day offshore passage 18 years ago. I rarely--if ever--have been out of VHF range since then on my coastal cruising from Connecticut to Maine. When you are ready to go offshore, or maybe down the Bahamas chain, it may make sense, but you can sort this out when the time comes.
05-26-2014 01:24 PM
Dean101
Re: NMEA 0183 vs NMEA 2000

I'm still a couple of years from the purchase/refit stage. I should have mentioned the autopilot. That is one of my must haves along with a windvane eventually. That's good advice about not getting ahead of myself. I don't feel I have the practical experience with the various systems available to decide exactly what I may or may not need.
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:21 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.