SailNet Community - Reply to Topic

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > What is your opinion of Bavaria's?
 Not a Member? 


Thread: What is your opinion of Bavaria's? Reply to Thread
Title:
  

By choosing to post the reply below you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Topic Review (Newest First)
04-12-2012 12:30 AM
SloopJonB
Re: What is your opinion of Bavaria's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Not sure I completely understand your description of your U-bolt arrangement, but there's no question a U-bolt can be made strong enough for a particular application...
Picture the top few inches of a conventional strap chainplate - the part the protrudes through the deck and receives the turnbuckle. Underneath the deck that stub is welded to a large flat S/S plate that is bolted to the underside of the deck.

Not the way I would have designed it but, as I noted, it has worked for 42 years including at least one trip from coast to coast via Panama, so I guess Tripp knew what he was doing.
04-11-2012 11:56 PM
JonEisberg
Re: What is your opinion of Bavaria's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
The lower shrouds on my Col. 43 are essentially U-bolts - they are a stub of stainless strap welded to a large stainless plate which acts as a big backing plate - the stub passes through the deck like a conventional chainplate. All the uppers are conventional long straps bolted to bulkheads etc. It has kept a 66' stick standing for 42 years despite years of serious neglect and the boat has sailed from N.Y. to San Francisco so I guess it's adequate.

I've never, to the best of my knowledge, seen a chainplate perfectly aligned with the shroud attached to it - that's the reason for toggles.
NEVER??? Really? Hmmm, perhaps you need to come back to the East coast, and have a look at some Proper Yachts... (grin)

Toggles are best used for dealing with variable and eccentric fluctuations, such as those due to things like headstay sag, and pumping... They are certainly not intended to correct to sort gross misalignment I was referring to...

Not sure I completely understand your description of your U-bolt arrangement, but there's no question a U-bolt can be made strong enough for a particular application...

My problem with U-bolts that I see on today's boats, is that the clevis pin will be subject to point loading, rather than having its load distributed over its full diameter when held captive within a properly sized chainplate hole.

I doubt there are many riggers out there who would consider a u-bolt attachment superior to a proper chainplate, and that's one reason you'll never see u-bolts in lieu of chainplates on boats built by Swan, Perini Navi, Royal Huisman, and the like...
04-01-2012 03:26 PM
SloopJonB
Re: What is your opinion of Bavaria's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Again, you're right about that, but I still don't like the practice, and I've seen it elsewhere, in some very surprising applications...

For example, you'll rarely find a boat built to a much higher standard than Cherubini does... Yet, I was stunned to see U-bolts instead of chainplates for the main and mizzen shrouds on the 44 shown at Annapolis a few years ago... And, yes, the lowers were, too, ever so slightly misaligned... (grin)



Chainplates can be a tricky thing to get right on any rig other than one with inline shrouds... On boats with fore and aft lowers, there is almost always some degree of misalignment to the load, for to get it just so usually requires the chainplate bulkhead to be slightly angled, or the chainplate itself either bent, or twisted... Few builders bother to go to such lengths, even the Valiant 42 I took south last fall, the chainplates for the lowers were absolutely vertical and ran athwhartships, and relied on the insertion of a toggle to improve the modest degree of misalignment...

"Good enough" perhaps, but still, not "Done Right"... (grin)
The lower shrouds on my Col. 43 are essentially U-bolts - they are a stub of stainless strap welded to a large stainless plate which acts as a big backing plate - the stub passes through the deck like a conventional chainplate. All the uppers are conventional long straps bolted to bulkheads etc. It has kept a 66' stick standing for 42 years despite years of serious neglect and the boat has sailed from N.Y. to San Francisco so I guess it's adequate.

I've never, to the best of my knowledge, seen a chainplate perfectly aligned with the shroud attached to it - that's the reason for toggles.
04-01-2012 03:10 PM
mortyd
Re: What is your opinion of Bavaria's?

if you're in the market for a boat, ask catalna owners for reasons not to buy a catalina. you'll start looking at catalinas all over again.
04-01-2012 02:30 PM
smackdaddy
Re: What is your opinion of Bavaria's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcp View Post
i guess that a boat that has made a circumnavigation (or two) will be able to head for bermuda. I know it is ruff, but you have just to take it with care and to know what you are doing. Probably the boat can handle more than what you are able to or at least more than what 99.5% of the sailors can handle.
+1.
04-01-2012 10:21 AM
PCP
Re: What is your opinion of Bavaria's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...
"Good enough" perhaps, but still, not "Done Right"... (grin)
Yes, I agree with you and would like to give an advice to all that buy new mass production boats, Bavarias or any other brand.

As Jon said the rig tunning is very important. I would say that modern boats rigs are well designed to the loads of the rig but everything is mounted by the dealer...and that can be a very dangerous thing. I have heard some astonishing stories about the way some rigs are mounted and tuned by dealers.

So a word of advise: Chose a big dealer that have a lot of experience with the boat. Try to be there when they mount the rig and talk with the rigger to see if he does not put some boy doing the work and check properly the work done.

If not, before doing some serious sailing with the boat go to a "official" rigger from the brand of your mast (warranty issues) and ask him to tun the rig. You are going to be surprised with the quantity of work needed and with what he is going to say about the ones that had rigged the mast...at least that was what happened to me.

Regards

Paulo
04-01-2012 09:45 AM
JonEisberg
Re: What is your opinion of Bavaria's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg
...

The increasing use of U-bolts instead of proper chainplates on today's production boats is simply one of my pet peeves... I don't believe it's a proper setup, and it seems such a blatant example of a builder "cheaping out", and going with something easier, and will likely be "good enough"... And, it quite possibly will be, for 99% of the sailors of such boats... I could be wrong about that, of course... (grin)

Yes I understand what you mean but you should not forget that the backstays on modern boats only are subjected at a fraction of a force that are the backstays on older boats. Some modern boats like the Hunter or the Pogo 12.50 just don't use them. That has to do with the rigging of the mast and with the spreaders.
Again, you're right about that, but I still don't like the practice, and I've seen it elsewhere, in some very surprising applications...

For example, you'll rarely find a boat built to a much higher standard than Cherubini does... Yet, I was stunned to see U-bolts instead of chainplates for the main and mizzen shrouds on the 44 shown at Annapolis a few years ago... And, yes, the lowers were, too, ever so slightly misaligned... (grin)



Chainplates can be a tricky thing to get right on any rig other than one with inline shrouds... On boats with fore and aft lowers, there is almost always some degree of misalignment to the load, for to get it just so usually requires the chainplate bulkhead to be slightly angled, or the chainplate itself either bent, or twisted... Few builders bother to go to such lengths, even the Valiant 42 I took south last fall, the chainplates for the lowers were absolutely vertical and ran athwhartships, and relied on the insertion of a toggle to improve the modest degree of misalignment...

"Good enough" perhaps, but still, not "Done Right"... (grin)
03-30-2012 04:29 PM
PCP
Re: What is your opinion of Bavaria's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...

The increasing use of U-bolts instead of proper chainplates on today's production boats is simply one of my pet peeves... I don't believe it's a proper setup, and it seems such a blatant example of a builder "cheaping out", and going with something easier, and will likely be "good enough"... And, it quite possibly will be, for 99% of the sailors of such boats... I could be wrong about that, of course... (grin)

...
Yes I understand what you mean but you should not forget that the backstays on modern boats only are subjected at a fraction of a force that are the backstays on older boats. Some modern boats like the Hunter or the Pogo 12.50 just don't use them. That has to do with the rigging of the mast and with the spreaders.

Another thing is the lateral chainplates and this ones are massif and very strong on the Bavarias and connected to a main bulkhead, I mean they normally finish in two strong steel plates, one on each side of the bullkhead , embracing it, and both sides united by steel bolts that go trough the bulkhead. Some others use them linked to the main boat structure.

Regards

Paulo
03-29-2012 09:49 PM
JonEisberg
Re: What is your opinion of Bavaria's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post

I guess that a boat that has made a circumnavigation (or two) will be able to head for Bermuda. I know it is ruff, but you have just to take it with care and to know what you are doing. Probably the boat can handle more than what you are able to or at least more than what 99.5% of the sailors can handle.

Regards

Paulo
You're right, of course, it's long ago been "proven" that just about any voyage can be undertaken and completed on just about anything that floats... Young Matt Rutherford, for example, is very close to proving that an Albin 27 is capable of a non-stop circumnavigation of the Americas... My only point is, such a boat would not be MY first choice for such a voyage...

The increasing use of U-bolts instead of proper chainplates on today's production boats is simply one of my pet peeves... I don't believe it's a proper setup, and it seems such a blatant example of a builder "cheaping out", and going with something easier, and will likely be "good enough"... And, it quite possibly will be, for 99% of the sailors of such boats... I could be wrong about that, of course... (grin)

Still, I don't like heading for a place like Bermuda aboard a boat I have doubts about... Why should I assume the assembly line worker who installs the seacocks on today's Bavarias has more of a clue as to what he's doing than the guy who installs the deck hardware? What evidence do I have that the boys at the Bavaria factory know that, while a backstay tang may not be all THAT critical an installation, one can rest assure that they fully understand the importance of getting the installation of something below the waterline correctly, and the fitting of something like a seacock has been done to absolute perfection?

I'm sure my attitude sounds somewhat obsessive or even anal to many, but my experience has taught me one Dirty Little Secret about how 99.9% of boats "outlast" their crews when the going gets tough... It's due to the fact that they've already worn down their crews with all the "little things" that go wrong... Fully-crewed boats are better prepared to deal with such cascading failures, but as one who does a considerable amount of single/shorthanded sailing, I'd rather take my chances aboard boats where things have been properly done by the builder from the get-go...
03-29-2012 03:10 PM
SloopJonB
Re: What is your opinion of Bavaria's?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I would say that each year of a charter boat will count as three in what regards the use of an average well maintained private boat.
I'd say that is being very generous - I'd put it at closer to 5 or 6 years. The 3 year old Harmony we chartered in the BVI looked like a 15 year old private boat in terms of wear on the hard parts.
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:14 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.