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Wing on Wing

13K views 24 replies 13 participants last post by  jackdale 
#1 ·
Can I sail wing on wing without a whisker pole? If so, is there anything I should know? I may be trying ti on Sunday.
 
#4 ·
I have flown a gennaker wing on wing with no pole.


The pole can help


You might want to use a preventer, rigged from the boom end to the foredeck and back.

Watch the wind carefully.

If the boat starts to wallow just hold the wheel and wait for it to settle down. Trying to counteract the wallow can exacerbate it.

Gybing the main is a little easier than gybing the foresail.

Get onto a starboard tack (main to port) to maintain some stand-on privileges.
 
#7 ·
It prevents an accident gybe.

Attach a very lone line to the boom end(with a shackle), feed it to block on the foredeck (outside of the shrouds) and bring it back to a cockpit winch or cleat.. In case of an accident gybe the boom will not go flying over the cockpit. You will be able to ease the main over.

A boom brake would also work well - maybe better as t slows the gybe down.

DO NOT USE YOUR BOOM VANG AS A PREVENTER.
 
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#6 ·
A line rigged from the boom to the leeward rail to prevent a jibe.

If you have a boom vang with a snap shackle, you can remove it from its attachment point on the mast and attach it to the leeward toerail or a leeward stanchion base.

If you try to run wing and wing without a pole, you probably want to overtrim the mainsail so it spills wind into the jib and keeps it out.
 
#12 ·
Your toe rail may not survive the gybe. Nor might your vang.

Use the right equipment for the right purposes.
 
#11 ·
To the OP (noticed your avatar)

Note that in both cases of the gennaker that the main is up. Getting a gennaker down in a blow without the main is dangerous. The main can blanket the gennaker and depower it so that it can be doused or dropped under control.
 
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#13 ·
Agree with Faster

Wing on wing is also my least favourite point of sail of sail. I teach it because it can be necessary. I had to go DDW to go between a reef and Antigua. Sometimes you need to go DDW in a channel.

Broad reach and and gybe is safer and much more relaxing. It can also be faster especially with a asymmetrical.
 
#15 ·
On the Chesapeake where I do a lot of sailing the wind often is either northerly or southerly so going up or down the Bay is either a beat or near DDW. I don't have a gennaker or spin but invested in a whisker pole a 2 or 3 years ago and use it a lot; it really helps. I have the main slightly to leeward to lessen the accidental gybe chances (use a boom brake also) and the pole keeps the genoa which is slightly winward from backing....a true light air sail in my future??? Hope so.
 
#16 ·
While I respect Jackdale and Faster's opinions, in this case I disagree with their objections to the use of a boom vang as a preventer. This use for smaller boats is mentioned on the UK-Halsey sailmaker's Encyclopedia of Sails website page for boom vangs: SKIPPERS TIPS ON USING BOOM VANG - UK-Halsey Sails

I have done it a number of times with no problem. If you secure the boom vang to the rail and tighthen the main sheet and the boom vang the boom will not be going anywhere - it cannot generate any power to pull the stanchion or rail fitting. The boom will be held in place by two forces down from either side. The power from a jibe is generated by the speed of the movement of the boom, not the power of the wind on the sail from a stationary boom. If the wind moves forward of the leeward side of the mainsail, the boat will simply spin into the wind; there is no particular movement of the boom, particularly if you have also positioned the traveller to leeward, as it should be.
 
#20 ·
While I respect Jackdale and Faster's opinions, in this case I disagree with their objections to the use of a boom vang as a preventer......
In most cases I do think that using the vang will not cause a problem.. as long as it's an easily moved connection and the rail or attachment point is sufficiently strong. Rigging a preventer (however it's done) can often reduce slatting and shock loading things even on a light day with leftover waves for example.. but I've found that using a vang-like arrangement to the rail doesn't have a good enough angle to truly keep the boom from moving around..(unlike a loaded sail in a breeze downwind) and the sail will continue to slat in the waves despite the 'preventer'. Taking a line from the boom end all the way forward is a much more effective restraint in that regard. So a real 'preventer' setup is just going to be better, and you'll always have a proper vang in play.

Another concern is that human nature being what it is, how often does one reattach the vang to the deck/mast before gybing and resetting the 'preventer' on the other gybe? In heavy air that would be well advised.

btw I do not mean to make W-on-W sound 'scary'.. generally it isn't until it's windy enough to make any DDW an interesting proposition, it's the nuisance of the collapsing jib and the need to be on your toes at all moments to avoid a unintended gybe, esp when using no pole. And when it blows up to say 20+ it's way less scary than a kite...;)
 
#17 ·
Jackdale is a sailing instructor, so he know of what he speaks.

However... I think some of these guys are making WnW sound scarier than it is. No, you don't need a whisker pole but it sure makes it easier. You can use a spinnaker pole too, it's just not adjustable.

Do it, just do it in lighter air. Don't do it in 20 kts of breeze. A gybe in air like that could clobber somebody or blow your mainsheet block apart (don't ask how I know :rolleyes:)

It's not hard, it just requires that you pay attention. WnW is not necessarily the time to check your text messages, or get into a lengthy conversation with crew.

You need to post some pictures. I miss my little Coronado.:laugher
 
#18 ·
Jackdale is a sailing instructor, so he know of what he speaks.
:eek:

However... I think some of these guys are making WnW sound scarier than it is. No, you don't need a whisker pole but it sure makes it easier. You can use a spinnaker pole too, it's just not adjustable.
In the shot that I posted it is a spin pole that we are using. Normally the downhaul and topping lift are on the pole ends as it is a dip pole gybe set up. I used a couple of bales that are mid-pole.

Do it, just do it in lighter air. Don't do it in 20 kts of breeze. A gybe in air like that could clobber somebody or blow your mainsheet block apart (don't ask how I know :rolleyes:)

It's not hard, it just requires that you pay attention. WnW is not necessarily the time to check your text messages, or get into a lengthy conversation with crew.
I have a pretty good feel for the wind.

I use the Windex rather than the wind instruments to visualize the wind. A shroud mounted tell tale also works well.

Looking up at a Windex a lot can be uncomfortable.
 
#21 ·
I thought I had a photo handy that shows what happens to your Perforated Toe Rail when the preventer doesn’t release in time during an accidental gybe. The boat was a Perry Designed Nordic 44 and about eight inches of toe rail ripped out of the hull and deck. Repair bill ran in the four digits. I’ll try to find the photo at home. The problem with midship preventing is the loads when the boom drags in the water. You will either rip toe rail or break the boom or pull out the gooseneck. All of which will ruin your day. Just like Jackdale said, you want to prevent by running the line forward to the bow then aft so if you do go boom in, it will want to rise and not be so eager to cause damage. We do run a midship “preventer” to stop the main from slating in light airs or leftover seas. When we do, we spice in a little sacrificial cord to act as a fuse. Unfortunately, on the Nordic, we used a quarter inch diameter “fuse” which didn’t break in time to prevent our damage.
 
#22 ·
Small boat can be vague.

I would not use a vang preventer on a vessel over 35 feet. Under 35 feet I would only do do in light air and calm seas and only if a boom end preventer was not tenable.

In ocean conditions I use a preventer when broad reaching as well and I will not go DDW.

BTW running in very light air is nearly impossible and very frustrating as you "outrun" the wind in lulls.
 
#23 ·
My mid boom preventer pulled 6 feet of spruce off the bottom of my boom once. Now I run a line from the end of the boom to the forward deck cleat and back to the cockpit. It is spectra as even a small amount of stretch will allow the boom to still gybe because of the geometries involved. Actually, usually we just put a crew on the cabin top leaning against the boom to keep it from gybing accidentally. I would not try wing on wing without a pole except in a bay with no waves.
 
#25 ·
I am assuming that it is a gennaker.

North Sails has a good video. The only thing I do differently is use a tack strap. There is no consensus about using one.

North Sails: Gennaker Handling Video
 
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