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Go Back   SailNet Community > Skills and Seamanship > Learning to Sail > Wing on Wing
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Thread: Wing on Wing Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-23-2012 12:28 PM
jackdale
Re: Wing on Wing

Quote:
Originally Posted by BreakAwayFL View Post
I have a spinnaker in the sock, but no idea how to use it :-(
I am assuming that it is a gennaker.

North Sails has a good video. The only thing I do differently is use a tack strap. There is no consensus about using one.

North Sails: Gennaker Handling Video
03-23-2012 12:11 PM
BreakAwayFL
Re: Wing on Wing

I have a spinnaker in the sock, but no idea how to use it :-(
03-22-2012 08:11 PM
allene222
Re: Wing on Wing

My mid boom preventer pulled 6 feet of spruce off the bottom of my boom once. Now I run a line from the end of the boom to the forward deck cleat and back to the cockpit. It is spectra as even a small amount of stretch will allow the boom to still gybe because of the geometries involved. Actually, usually we just put a crew on the cabin top leaning against the boom to keep it from gybing accidentally. I would not try wing on wing without a pole except in a bay with no waves.
03-22-2012 07:44 PM
jackdale
Re: Wing on Wing

Small boat can be vague.

I would not use a vang preventer on a vessel over 35 feet. Under 35 feet I would only do do in light air and calm seas and only if a boom end preventer was not tenable.

In ocean conditions I use a preventer when broad reaching as well and I will not go DDW.

BTW running in very light air is nearly impossible and very frustrating as you "outrun" the wind in lulls.
03-22-2012 07:38 PM
GeorgeB
Re: Wing on Wing

I thought I had a photo handy that shows what happens to your Perforated Toe Rail when the preventer doesn’t release in time during an accidental gybe. The boat was a Perry Designed Nordic 44 and about eight inches of toe rail ripped out of the hull and deck. Repair bill ran in the four digits. I’ll try to find the photo at home. The problem with midship preventing is the loads when the boom drags in the water. You will either rip toe rail or break the boom or pull out the gooseneck. All of which will ruin your day. Just like Jackdale said, you want to prevent by running the line forward to the bow then aft so if you do go boom in, it will want to rise and not be so eager to cause damage. We do run a midship “preventer” to stop the main from slating in light airs or leftover seas. When we do, we spice in a little sacrificial cord to act as a fuse. Unfortunately, on the Nordic, we used a quarter inch diameter “fuse” which didn’t break in time to prevent our damage.
03-22-2012 06:59 PM
Faster
Re: Wing on Wing

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
While I respect Jackdale and Faster's opinions, in this case I disagree with their objections to the use of a boom vang as a preventer......
In most cases I do think that using the vang will not cause a problem.. as long as it's an easily moved connection and the rail or attachment point is sufficiently strong. Rigging a preventer (however it's done) can often reduce slatting and shock loading things even on a light day with leftover waves for example.. but I've found that using a vang-like arrangement to the rail doesn't have a good enough angle to truly keep the boom from moving around..(unlike a loaded sail in a breeze downwind) and the sail will continue to slat in the waves despite the 'preventer'. Taking a line from the boom end all the way forward is a much more effective restraint in that regard. So a real 'preventer' setup is just going to be better, and you'll always have a proper vang in play.

Another concern is that human nature being what it is, how often does one reattach the vang to the deck/mast before gybing and resetting the 'preventer' on the other gybe? In heavy air that would be well advised.

btw I do not mean to make W-on-W sound 'scary'.. generally it isn't until it's windy enough to make any DDW an interesting proposition, it's the nuisance of the collapsing jib and the need to be on your toes at all moments to avoid a unintended gybe, esp when using no pole. And when it blows up to say 20+ it's way less scary than a kite...
03-22-2012 06:55 PM
nolatom
Re: Wing on Wing

Yeah, echo the "it takes concentration" part. You're always, by definition, pretty close to being by the lee and hence close to an accidental jibe.

So it's not really for beginners or take-it-easy cruisers. Broad reaching, on the other hand, is....
03-22-2012 06:43 PM
jackdale
Re: Wing on Wing

Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbleheadMd View Post
Jackdale is a sailing instructor, so he know of what he speaks.


Quote:

However... I think some of these guys are making WnW sound scarier than it is. No, you don't need a whisker pole but it sure makes it easier. You can use a spinnaker pole too, it's just not adjustable.
In the shot that I posted it is a spin pole that we are using. Normally the downhaul and topping lift are on the pole ends as it is a dip pole gybe set up. I used a couple of bales that are mid-pole.

Quote:

Do it, just do it in lighter air. Don't do it in 20 kts of breeze. A gybe in air like that could clobber somebody or blow your mainsheet block apart (don't ask how I know )

It's not hard, it just requires that you pay attention. WnW is not necessarily the time to check your text messages, or get into a lengthy conversation with crew.
I have a pretty good feel for the wind.

I use the Windex rather than the wind instruments to visualize the wind. A shroud mounted tell tale also works well.

Looking up at a Windex a lot can be uncomfortable.
03-22-2012 06:33 PM
BubbleheadMd
Re: Wing on Wing

Jackdale is a sailing instructor, so he know of what he speaks.

However... I think some of these guys are making WnW sound scarier than it is. No, you don't need a whisker pole but it sure makes it easier. You can use a spinnaker pole too, it's just not adjustable.

Do it, just do it in lighter air. Don't do it in 20 kts of breeze. A gybe in air like that could clobber somebody or blow your mainsheet block apart (don't ask how I know )

It's not hard, it just requires that you pay attention. WnW is not necessarily the time to check your text messages, or get into a lengthy conversation with crew.

You need to post some pictures. I miss my little Coronado.
03-22-2012 06:03 PM
jameswilson29
Re: Wing on Wing

While I respect Jackdale and Faster's opinions, in this case I disagree with their objections to the use of a boom vang as a preventer. This use for smaller boats is mentioned on the UK-Halsey sailmaker's Encyclopedia of Sails website page for boom vangs: SKIPPERS TIPS ON USING BOOM VANG - UK-Halsey Sails

I have done it a number of times with no problem. If you secure the boom vang to the rail and tighthen the main sheet and the boom vang the boom will not be going anywhere - it cannot generate any power to pull the stanchion or rail fitting. The boom will be held in place by two forces down from either side. The power from a jibe is generated by the speed of the movement of the boom, not the power of the wind on the sail from a stationary boom. If the wind moves forward of the leeward side of the mainsail, the boat will simply spin into the wind; there is no particular movement of the boom, particularly if you have also positioned the traveller to leeward, as it should be.
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