Can somebody pro/con a full vs. fin keel for a newbie (will learn to sail on said boat) and taking it thru the Caribbean? All I can seem to come up with so far is fin keel is better to the wind, and a full keel will protect your rudder.
I think Jeff had already replied to that saying that makes sense to compare boats by its weight even if I think that weight by weight a modern boat is more seaworthy. Perhaps it still misses something to make things more clear and that is that makes also sense to compare boats by weight in what regards price.Those are both good and thoughtful answers. I agree. Thankyou
It seems unfortunate though, in my opinion, that the smaller boats are getting short changed by the modern approach to sailboat design. Yes, they are producing faster and lighter boats in the 30 foot range, but not faster and safer long range cruisers in that size. The modern hull forms and their attached appendages cannot duplicate the speed and safety when ladened. Something that most marketers are not telling the buyers. There is a simple explanation why the lowly Westsail 32 is slow compared to some boats around the buoys. There is also a (slightly less) simple explanation why the same W-32 is faster than said boats when they are used for long distance voyaging. There are sailors out there who are truly looking for that smaller "go anywhere", live aboard, cruiser. That is, under 35 feet. A Westsail 32, admittedly a 40 foot boat, is attractive partly because it is "smaller".
I personally, would like to see the designers, producers, and marketers spend a little more time applying the modern technology to a better, safer, "go anywhere", cruiser that doesn't fall flat on its face in performance, comfort, and safety when fully, or over fully, ladened, or, when it hits the bottom in the lagoon at Aitutaki. It would also be appreciated if these same people told the truth about how cruising performance will be different than racing performance, even with the modern, fast, light weight boats.
Full vs. fin keel? I prefer what I have. The best that a designer can do is to design the best boat for what it is really going to be doing, at its extremes. And remember that there are people inside.
Thanks again
After thought: Would it have been more appropriate to have put this post in the "Shameless Plug" thread?
Motion comfort has to do also with LWL. A bigger boat has a more comfortable wave passage. Regarding the type of motion of an heavy boat versus a light one, well it is debatable, some like the big slow pitching of the old boats, some prefer the faster but less ample movements of a modern boat... The 38 foot boat that the designers want people to buy instead of a heavy 32 footer will not have the same motion comfort.
Of course, in what concerns going upwind a fast boat is always more uncomfortable than a slow boat. If you cannot take the pounding that power and speed can induce, or just don't want to, you have just to go slower and it seems it was what you have done. A fast boat can go slower, a slower boat cannot go fasterThis is only one example of a hundred: On a delivery return from Hawaii on a very modern 46 foot high performance, racer/cruiser, We were pounding so horribly that we had to slow the boat way down and move much farther off course.
You can only be kiding Between a westsail 32 and a good light cruiser like a Salona 38? Maybe 4 days in an Atlantic crossing? Maybe more if the Westsail has bad luck and the wind is weak. On coastal cruising without trade winds the difference will be a lot bigger.Concerning the smaller sizes of long distance voyaging boats, the modern designs are falling way short of of their promise. ...
At this point in this post I offer one more disagreement with your comments. SPEED I must ask you, how much faster is that modern 38 footer going to be going than the heavy 32 footer that the designers want us to buy? (don't forget to store the dinghy on that 38 footer) In my opinion, and I have sailed both, the real world answer is, very little, IF at all.
Carl's Sail Calculator is a useful comparison tool as well.Boats price (when new) by the pound, assuming similar level of equipment.
So lets compare boats by their displacement.
Westsail 32 displacement 19,528 lbs
Beneteau first 42 displacement 18,600 lbs
Pounds /inch immersion
Westsail 32 1064 lbs
Beneteau First 42 1712 lbs
Isn't that a fair comparison?
The design of your boat has all the traits of an excellent rough water boat. Looking straight on from the bow, we see the deep v-hull design that provides much lower hull righting moment than the newer flat bottom boats. Lower hull righting moment means that this boat will heel considerably less on a wave than a flat bottom boat. The lower hull righting moment is compensated by a heavier keel. So in the end, your boat may have the same or more righting moment than the flat bottom boat.This Is Great!
All the smart people are posting info on full and fin keels in this thread.
Perhaps they are all still subscribed and could expand their info. I looked around a whole bunch but could not afford a full keel. I have yet to sail my boat because it is still being painted. I was wondering what to expect from what i believe are called 3/4 keel like the one on my boat? Is there a positive side to a keel like mine?
Documentation says my draft is 5'6"
36' LOA Vessel weighing 16,500lbs with a beam of 12'4"
I am hull #1 of 2 i believe. Created by Squadron Yachts of Bristol RI in 1981 in case anyone was curious where i got a boat they hadn't seen before.
Great images. Those are really big breaking waves
If it was a properly designed rough water boat, it would have hardly heeled at all during either of the waves. Interestingly enough, rough water boats do not necessarily have high inertia. The predominant inertia from a sailboat invariably comes from its standing rigging. Not from its keel. We have to be careful not to confuse weight with inertia. Although no doubt, a light weight mast on a 10 Million dollar sail boat is bound to have less inertia than any cruising boat.That was a double hit, if the boat had a lot of inertia (a lot of weight for the same RM) and was still capsized when it was hit by the second wave, the story could be other. We can also see clearly the boat going sideways and rotating dissipating with movement the wave energy (look at the clouds) otherwise than with a rolling movement.
Regards
Paulo
Paulo, when I watch the video it appears there is a time edit between the first two waves, so there is no way to tell how long the interval is. Also, when I look at the clouds it looks like the boat is rounding up, I don't see the sideways motion.Outstanding the speed that this boats can return to its feet after being capsized, even with a lot of sail out That was a double hit, if the boat had a lot of inertia (a lot of weight for the same RM) and was still capsized when it was hit by the second wave, the story could be other. We can also see clearly the boat going sideways and rotating dissipating with movement the wave energy (look at the clouds) otherwise than with a rolling movement.
Regards
Paulo
It is not me that thinks that a a narrow deep foil keel allows a boat to move sideways or to rotate much easily than a full keel. I have learned from others including some very experience sailors and boat designersPaulo, when I watch the video it appears there is a time edit between the first two waves, so there is no way to tell how long the interval is. Also, when I look at the clouds it looks like the boat is rounding up, I don't see the sideways motion.
Am I correct in thinking you mean that the narrow deep keel allows sideways slipping down the wave face, rather than tripping on a long keel with more surface area? .. I don't think that rounding up is a desirable trait.
This thread has been making me think! Comparing a "flat" bottom modern shape to a "round/V bottom" shape, the flat will tend to orient to the face of the wave it is on, thus quicker to roll and come back.
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This is so very true.. it has been going on for more like 200 years though.As far as design changes over many decades, I think there are many more boats designed today that are designed to sail well in different conditions without being tweaked and distorted to meet a racing rule. There were certainly many distortions during the IOR rule years but remember many popular long keel cruisers were designed to a rule as well - a better rule but a rule that defined design type all the same. Most of the long keel designs that are popular now for offshore use were designed to race under the CCA rule - Albergs being a good example. Many of them were not intended by their designers to be sailed offshore either.
I hope that this is a case of normal screw ups with site traffic. I think you add a valuable viewpoint, and I definitely appreciate it.As I have of a history of "Deleted" posts, I must not say any more.
Of course, like in cars, airplanes and everything else. New materials, new knowledge is continually integrated in boat, car, airplane or motorcycle design.Yeah but is the state of the art really any better than it was 30 years ago?..
A Naval Architect, or an any Architect for that matter, does not design accordingly with his personal point of view.Those are a lot of assumptions.
I already have the boat with the characteristics that I want. For probably less than the cost of Bruce Farrs consulting fee. Not to mention the cost to build the boat.
His interpretation of what makes a good cruising boat may be different than mine.
Its not hard to understand.
The very fact that very few builders are still producing such boats, however, pretty much answers your question, GB. Duped or enlightened?? To each his/her own.That begs the question, where are these boats?
All the rest...IDKMost of us want something that is fun to sail, maneuverable, safe, has storage for our personal needs, and a design that works for where we sail! For some, maybe a full keel, other a bildge, some a centerboard ala Finot's boat, others a fin keel! some twin rudders, some single.......in the end, does the boat make your heart spin! as a good women, or man if that is your choice will. There is no right or wrong to keel type per say. Only what you think will work best for you. I'll take a fin, CB, moderate fin to a full keel in that order!
Marty