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Tips For Compound, Polish & Wax

429K views 352 replies 140 participants last post by  SanderO 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Buff Polish & Wax

Try these products (for Gel-Coat only not intended for Awlgrip)

The Cliff Note Version:
Steps:
#1-Clean the hull with an acid-base cleaner like FSR, oxalic acid, or On & Off to remove rust & tannin staining. (only if necessary)​
#2-Wet Sand by hand 600 (if really bad) then move up the grits to P1000+ (only if severely oxidized otherwise you can start at #3)​
#3-3M Marine Rubbing Compound or Presta Gel Coat Compound (use a wool 3M super buff COMPOUND grade pad like the #05711) (if already fairly shiny start at #4)​
#4-3M Finesse It or Presta Ultra Cutting Creme (Use a foam 3M #05725 pad or 3M Yellow Wool # 05713 Note: Yellow wool is far easier and far more forgiving for a novice and will also last a LOT longer than any foam)​
#5-(OPTIONAL STEP) Presta Chroma - Use 3M #05725 foam, #05713 wool, or Blue Presta wool pad.​

The Full Detailed Version:

Tools & Supplies:
To be successful in completing this project you'll need a few items first. Don't be bashful in pulling out the wallet for these supplies, and while you do, think about how much money you're saving over a new Awlgrip paint job. The tools for this project can be used and will last, for years and years and with each use they cost you less.

#1) Buffer- A good rotary buffer is an absolute necessity. Unfortunately, one of the cheapies from Wal*Mart or Auto Zone doesn't count as quality and will yield rather poor results. If you're buffing the soft paint of a Yugo these buffers might work but not on a 30+ foot sailboat. The "cheapies" ultimately can't handle the loads & run either too fast or too slow for the material & pad combination you are using. They also cant usually accept quality polishing and buffing grade pads.

A machine with a thumb-controlled speed dial will be the best money you spend on an orbital buffer. I use a Makita model 9227C and it's proven itself to be a reliable and top quality machine. Most of the boat yards around here also use the 9227C for buffing and also with 7 & 9" sanding discs. The 9227C comes equipped with a thumb dial for easy access and instantaneous speed control and turns speeds from 600 rpm to 3000 rpm. The difference between my Makita and my brother's old Sears Craftsman is like night and day.

There are many manufacturers of speed-controlled circular buffers but Makita, Milwaukee, Flex (German company) & DeWalt build about the best and most reliable units. When buying a buffer it's important to buy a unit with a "no load" motor. "No load" means that no matter how much pressure you put on the buffer it will still spin at the speed you set it at. While some boaters have found a cheapy Makita knock-off buffer that will work they rarely last or can handle the loads. For a one-time job or a small boat, a Chinese Makita knock-off might be fine. If you want one of these Harbor Freight has one for about $40.00.

Buffer features that matter: 1) No load speed. 2) Weight (lighter is better when working overhead). 3)Thumb control speed dial. 4) Low speeds 600 rpm is a very useful speed but many circular buffers have a slow speed of 1000 rpm. 5) Soft start; this helps prevent sling upon startup. A power cord and handle design that makes cord replacement easy. 6) For gelcoat you want a rotary/circular machine NOT a dual action...

#2)Buffing Pads- You will need two or three grades of buffing pads or discs. I only recommend 3M pads because they are easy to find and most Napa Auto Parts stores stock them. The 3M heavy wool Hookit Superbuff pads are great for the compounding phase the part number is - 05711. For polishing the yellow wool Hookit polishing grade pad #05713 is another favorite. You can also use the 3M foam polishing grade pads like the #05725. They are wonderful for adding the finishing touch.

Use a heavy wool compounding grade pad for the compounding, and a polishing grade wool #05713 or the #05725 for the polishing stage and the same #05725 foam pad for the finishing or glazing stage.

I'll use 3M professional grade foam pads #05725 for the polish & glaze stage but I also use some Lake Country CCS pads. When buffing a gelcoat hull it's important to match the aggressiveness of the pad to the phase of the buffing though you can experiment too and have great results. You will just not get a good final shine using a heavy compounding grade pad even if you're using Finesse It or Chroma 1500 with it as the wool itself is too coarse.

#3) Microfiber Rags- Honestly, these are the best invention for buffing & waxing since the buffing machine. I've been using microfibers for years and years on antique cars and trust me they have come way, way down in price since their introduction.

A pack of three microfiber rags used to cost me in the vicinity of $40.00 but now you can buy a pack of three at an auto parts store or, gulp, even Wal*Mart, for about $3.00-$4.00. Occasionally Sam's Club will have them in 18 or 24 packs for about $12.00. When buying microfiber rags be very wary & conscious of the quality. A good rag will look more like a good quality terry cloth towel, with thick full loops. In short, it will be nice and robust and the quality will be visible to the naked eye. Even the worst quality microfiber rags will still outperform the best quality terry cloth so don't worry too much. Again, these rags are amazing and they will save you time! Trying to compare terry cloth or cotton rags to microfiber rags, for this job, is like pairing Michael Moore & Bode Miller in a ski race. There is NO comparison..

#4) Wet Sand Paper- Usually, any good quality wet-sand paper like 3M is fine and grits of P600-P1000+ are what will be necessary. If your hull does not need a wet sanding don't bother buying it. You can actually wet sand the entire project then after P2000+ simply do a polish phase but this can be a LOT of work.

#5) Compounds- All compounds & polishes are not created equally. Avoid buying any compound that uses terms like "essential oils" or has the word "silicone" on the label. Compounds with these additives are intended for novices. Unfortunately, these products, like 95% of the "one step" products will give a false & premature shine. This premature shine is caused by the "essential oils" or "silicone" & will cause you to stop polishing before you've actually polished anything due to this false shine. They add these lubricants to the product to make the wheel spin easier and to make you think you are getting a great shine. Sadly the shine is fake, premature, and caused by "essential oils or silicones":doh:

Perhaps the best, of the easily available compounds, is 3M Marine Rubbing Compound. I've used it with very good success over the years and it works. Is it the best compound? No not at all. Do I regularly use it when compounding? No, but I still do on occasion. 3M Marine Super Duty Rubbing Compound is a good product and it would be considered "paint shop safe" meaning it contains no "cheater oils" like silicone.

If you want very, very good products look up Presta Products online. Presta Gelcoat Compound is a GREAT compound that leaves a surprisingly high level of shine before you begin to polish. Presta is generally sold only through body shop distributors and is water-based (zero oils), but also worth every penny. For the average guy who just wants his boat shiny 3M is decent. If you're part of the anal-retentive crowd, who will settle for nothing but the best, do yourself a favor and look into Presta Products it's basically all I use these days and it performs well above the 3M stuff.


#6) Polish- After the compounding phase you'll need to polish. 3M Finesse It II is a good choice for a polish. I've used many bottles of Finesse It II and it's readily available and "paint shop safe". Unfortunately, Finesse It II does have some chemical binders or carriers in it that give a minimal pre-mature shine. A quick wipe down with a spray bottle of denatured alcohol and a rag gets rid of this so you can see the real shine you've created.

Again, for the next level, Presta Ultra Cuttting Creme with the yellow wool #05713 pad is a great step to follow the Gelcoat Compound with. It is my #1 choice for both light compounding and polishing. This unique product, like all the Presta compounds and polishes, uses a very high-quality diminishing grit media that starts out more aggressive than Finesse It II but finishes finer than it thus avoiding another full step.

The Process:

Buffing and waxing a boat the right way takes time and is a commitment. On a gelcoat hull of 36 feet I would plan on about 5 hours for doing a two-step polish, & wax or about 6-8 hours for a two-step glaze & wax. This is once you get caught up, after your first re-condition, including a wet sanding or compounding, it's usually only a two-step process each spring. Unfortunately, the first season of re-conditioning may take you up to 20 hours if your hull is heavily oxidized. It's a commitment but gives a beautiful finish.

One-Step Products:

Contrary to popular belief there is no such thing as a one-step solution for wet sanding, compounding, polishing, and waxing a fiberglass hull. The saying "you get what you pay for" is true and a $10.00 - $18.00 bottle of "one step" cleaner wax just does not cut it if you truly want your boat gelcoat fully reconditioned. Unless you're pinched by time and are satisfied with a quickie job, and many boat owners will be, you may want to stop reading here. Using a one-step cleaner wax is like going to the "touch-less" car wash and ordering the "wax" option for a Porsche. It's just not the same as doing it the hard & old-fashioned way.

Cleaning the hull:

Before wet sanding or compounding can begin you should thoroughly clean the hull. For this process, you'll need a cheap rain suit, duck tape, rubber gloves, and some ON & OFF, On & OFF Gel or FSR gel (basically acid) and you'll ultimately want a full face respirator rated for acids.. Duck tape where the gloves meet the raincoat so you don't get acid on your skin while reaching over-head, preferably DO NOT reach overhead but rather do it from a platform or ladder to wash the boat. I find using On & Off, and a car wash brush, as effective, but far quicker, than applying FSR gel, and they are both made of the same basic components (acids). Be careful these ARE acid-based products!

Buy a roll or sheet of plastic and rip it with a razor knife into 12-inch wide lengths. Tape this to your dry hull surface at the water line using 3M green film tape (which seems to work) at the top but let it hang on the bottom as a "drip edge" skirt. You do this so the acid in the ON & OFF does not eat the copper bottom paint and can drip on the ground vs. the bottom paint. Wash and rinse quickly a small area at a time and do this preferably before you bottom paint just in case. On & Off is basically FSR without the gel. However, you can wash much faster with ON & OFF than you can with FSR. The ON & OFF will bring back the white of the hull by removing the metals or tannins. Tannins are that rusty orange discoloration you get from the ocean over time that attaches to the gelcoat. You'll be amazed at the difference in the color of your hull! Even hulls that don't look bad look amazing after a thorough washing with On & Off. This is a very good place to start before waxing if your boat is older than a few years. Be very careful not to get On & Off or FSR on aluminum rub rails, metals, stanchions, cleats etc. because it will pit them. Only apply FSR or On & Off to a gelcoat hull! Allow about 20 minutes for the skirt set up and 1/2 hour for washing the hull.

Removing the oxidation:

To do it right you must first remove all the oxidation. This will be achieved either by wet sanding, starting with P600 grit, if really bad, and working up to P1000 grit plus. Wet sanding by novices should always be done by hand. Unless you're a seasoned body shop professional do not use a machine to speed up the wet sanding process. While gelcoat is very thick & most hulls can be wet sanded & compounded numerous times, compared to Linear Polyurethanes such as AwlGrip or Imron, a novice with an electric or air sander can chew through and ruin the gelcoat quickly if not fully experienced. Doing this by hand, and keeping the paper rinsed and wet is the key to getting a good result. One trick is to add a little dish detergent to the water bucket as this lubes the paper and helps rinse the gelcoat chalk off when you dip the paper. I like to use a soft damp kitchen sponge as my backing block and it matches the hull contours nicely.

Compounding:

If the hull oxidation is minimal a good heavy-duty rubbing compound, such as 3M Heavy Duty or Presta Gelcoat Compound and a 3M compounding grade wool pad #05711 or Presta black pad can and should be the starting point. You'll know quickly after testing a spot with the compound if you'll need to wet sand. If you need to spend more than 2-3 minutes on a 2X2 area your using the wrong machine, compound, pad, or a combination of the three or you need to start at wet sanding. I can not stress enough the importance of using a compounding grade pad with a compound and a polishing grade pad with a polish. While it is fine to use a polish-grade pad with a medium compound like Presta Ultra Cutting Creme you don't want to use a heavy-duty pad with a polish or you won't get the desired result.

When compounding do keep in mind that a compound is like liquid wet sandpaper. Therefore, you should keep your pad damp at all times. I use a misting bottle filled with water for this but don't overdo it. If you are getting lots of small dot "sling" the pad is to wet. If you are a novice I do not advise attempting to use the buffer to "dry buff" or to "buff off" compounds or polishes. Running the pad dry, as in buffing until the compound is off the hull, is something best left for PROFESSIONALS or until you have the confidence and skill to go there. You can very easily damage your hull if you are not experienced at "dry" buffing. I've seen burned and permanently discolored gelcoat from novices attempting this. This is part of the reason they put Silicone in compounds and it's because most people don't understand the concept of how to use a buffer.

As a beginner, your buffer should be considered just that a buffer and not a "remover". Work a 2-foot by 2-foot area first going at a slow speed of 600 then slowly up to 1000 for 30-45 seconds then turn the dial up to 2k+ but below 3k and stop before it is dry. Next, wipe the residue off while it's still in the "damp haze" mode. Don't let it dry or it will be a bear to remove unless you wet it again. This will show you how much more you need to do or if you can move to the next 2X2 area. ALWAYS, ALWAYS keep the pad and machine moving!!!

Apply compound in a criss-cross, not a circle (note the mist bottle of water):

Edging the pad is for pro's or after you get comfortable with the process & machine !!

Right Way - keep it FLAT..


After compounding phase only using Presta Ultra Cutting Creme (no sanding was done here 30 year old gelcoat):

Pre-compounding Phase:


The polishing phase:

This is perhaps the most important because it gives that deep wet look to the hull even before you wax it. Skipping the very important polishing phase, and using an aggressive compound only, will leave very small, barely visible, scratches or "swirl marks" in the gel coat that will absorb more UV light. It may look very shiny after this step but the sun & UV see the swirls. These micro ridges and valleys or micro scratches, if you will, actually create a more exposed surface area, and thus oxidize the hull more rapidly. This is why you should polish the hull as the second phase or third phase depending on your level of oxidation.

So phase 1 is wet sand (if needed), phase 2 compound, phase three polish.

Contrary to popular myths & beliefs you should not be dependent on the wax for the shine of your hull. The wax is a protection layer only and a final sealer to keep the elements at bay and to minimize pollution and dirt from binding to the hull. Unfortunately, most DIYer's actually skip the polishing step thinking compounding is polishing. It's not. Once the hull is polished I do a phase called glazing step (overkill for most unless you're totally OCD) and then two coats of Collinite Fleet Wax. Most often one coat will suffice but for a really long-lasting finish, two coats are best. I normally do three at the waterline because this is where the wax sees the most abuse.

The same techniques apply to polishing as do compounding.

After polishing but before wax:


Glazing Phase (optional):

The fourth step, or glazing phase, would be considered overkill by many but this is the step where you literally make the hull surface as smooth as glass removing any traces of "swirl marks". By using products like Meguiars #9 Swirl Remover or Presta Chroma you eliminate micro scratches and slow the oxidizing by creating even less surface area for the sun's UV rays to degrade.

Don't worry though, if you stop at 3M Finesse It II you're 90% of the way there and this level of polish is plenty good for most boaters and will last a long time if done right and with patience.

Understanding Grit Levels:

What is grit level? If you were to rate various products on a 1-10 scale of grit (1 being least aggressive & 10 being most) wet sanding at P600 would be a 10 or most aggressive, compounding with a heavy-duty compound would be a 6-7, Finesse It a 3-4.5, #9 or Presta Chroma a 1-3 and wax a Zero.

Using the above scale as a guide you can see why you would not want to jump the compounding phase to a wax. Stopping at the compounding phase will leave swirl marks or micro scratches, which creates more surface area, to absorb UV rays. Stopping at the Finesse It phase will leave considerably less aggressive swirl marks but they will still be there all be it very, very minimally. Going all the way to a glazing phase will leave virtually zero swirls and prolong the time between oxidation's re-appearance. Even deep scratches can be minimized by feathering the edges. The sharp edges of a scratch are what make it highly visible. Rounding off these edges through compounding and polishing greatly minimizes the visibility while still preserving the surrounding gelcoat thickness...

One-Step Products / Liquids:
Don't be fooled by the "easy application liquid carnauba waxes" I've yet to find one that lasts and I've tried many of them! Trust me I did this for a living when I was younger and no one wants to wax a mega yacht every three months! I used to work on and detail "shiny boats" (mega yachts) and found Collinite Fleet Wax #885 paste version to be the longest lasting and hardest of the Carnuba's. Practical Sailor, not once, but twice now has backed up my own personal finding crowning Collinite #885 the king of paste waxes. There are others but Collinte is truly a great product.

One way to test if your wax will pass the test of time is to watch your waterline. If it becomes yellow the wax is dead and gone! With Collinite #885 you can get 6-8 full months without any yellowing at the waterline. No other wax I've tried has even come close.

There are literally hundreds of waxes out there and any one of them is better than none. I only recommend the above waxes because I have used them and found them to be very durable. I have also used many of the "marine" waxes including some of the "Teflon" based products, but again, none worked as well as the old-school paste Carnuba's.

More Process Tips:
When buffing & waxing a boat, out of the water, a good trick is to cover the bottom paint with at least 2" blue tape so you don't accidentally buff and wax the bottom paint. It's important to tape neatly so you get wax as close to the bottom paint as you can without actually getting it on the bottom paint. I usually do a 3/4-inch width tape followed by a 2-inch width giving me plenty of tape to save my buffing pads. Fouling of your buffing pad, with bottom paint, is the end of that pad until you can wash it in a commercial washing machine. To keep "sling", what happens when you use a rotary buffer, and it throws white dots of compound up onto your deck, off the decks, I bring old cardboard boxes to the boat yard. Lay them on the deck directly above the area you're working protruding about 12" over the edge of the deck. The cardboard overhang will catch any "sling" on the way up and it will save you huge amounts of time cleaning white dots off the surface of your deck!

Blue Tape:


Tips for keeping it clean:

1) With two coats of a paste Carnuba on the hull I only wash the boat with IMAR boat wash or Awlwash the soap made to wash Awlgrip. These products are great and also safe, and IMAR is also approved & safe for washing Strataglass dodger windows. The reason I use IMAR Boat Wash is that it's the only product I've found that cleans well but does not prematurely break down the wax. With IMAR I'm still beading after 7-8 months. Avoid the use of any soap with a built-in wax or one that's a heavy detergent-based product and by all means do not use Joy, Palmolive or dishwashing detergents as they eat waxes for lunch. You can order IMAR products from Defender or directly from the IMAR website although Defender is cheaper. Using this and a very soft car wash brush on a stick works well and does not ruin your wax job.

Tips for applying the wax:

3) Do I apply the wax by hand? Yes! Please don't apply or remove the wax phase with the buffer. I use the 4-inch round Meguiars foam applicators you can buy at an auto parts store and a spray/mist bottle of water like you use for ironing. The spray bottle is the secret trick for applying a true Carnuba wax. Simply mist the hull and liberally apply the wax. Wait for it to haze over to about 80-90% of dry and buff by hand with a Micro Fiber rag. Avoid terry cloth as microfibers work many times better. Once you use a Micro Fiber detailing cloth for waxing you'll wonder how you ever survived without one. The spray of water helps it attach and buff out to a harder, shinier easier to wipe off finish. It's sort of like when you get your shoes polished and the guy hits them with a mist bottle and then buffs the shine up. This trick does not work with most of the polymer/Carnuba blends like the 3M paste but it's like gold with the Collinite Carnuba..

Another trick is not to wax a large area! I'll do a two to three-foot wide swath from toe rail to waterline marking where you are waxing at the toe rail with a piece of blue tape. Also leave a little residue on the leading edge so you'll know exactly where to start. You'll wipe this leading edge when finished with the next swath leaving another leading edge to go off of. It moves along much faster than it sounds.

Over the years I have experimented at length with using my buffer to remove the wax but I find the frictional heat is bad for it and it does not shine as well or last as long as a good hand application and hand wipe. Buffing it off by hand gives it a harder shell because it's cooler and does not re-melt the curing wax with the friction of a buffer. On my 36 footer, I use only four Micro's where it used to take about a dozen terry cloth rags. I buy my Micro Fiber rags at Sam's Club or Wal*Mart. I used to buy them from Griot's Garage when they were the only ones who had them and they were HUGE money! Try and find the best quality Micro*Fiber you can it will make a difference. Sometimes the quality of the Sam's Club Micro's is poor so I go to Wal*Mart or an auto-parts store.

On concourse quality show cars pure carnauba wax is applied with bare, clean fingers & a mist of water and then removed with microfiber rags. This is how I waxed cars growing up. Bare fingers on a 36-footer are far too time-consuming but I have actually done it.;)

Tips for decks:

4) I personally compound and buff the smooth but generally not the non-skid. I don't wax the decks with anything but Woody Wax but I don't find that it actually protects all that much so it may be a wasted step.

One insider secret is that less distortion in the reflection shows a very good polish/glaze with virtually no swirl marks. If the items in a reflection, such as a ladder, seem distorted the polishing is not up to par. You can also hold a ruler at 90 degrees to the surface and see how far you can read it. The further you can read the numbers the smoother the surface. Here I used my watch.


Info on pads, compounds and rags:

As for maintaining the wool buffing pads, I wash them alone on COLD with Woolite in a home front load washing machine. Sometimes it may take two cycles to get them clean. Please do not dry them in a dryer and don't wash them on hot. They are wool and a hot wash or dry will literally change the pad grade. A polish grade pad can become a compound pad fairly quickly so wash cold and then air dry. I rarely have to clean a pad, during a buffing project, unless I'm doing a boat that is badly oxidized. Use slow speeds and light pressure to prevent compound burning. You can also use a mist bottle of water, very sparingly, to give a little moisture to the hull and lube the pad. This however will create more sling so you're best to go slow and keep the compound wetter. The secret is to keep the pad "damp" if it dries, it burns, and you'll need a "spur wheel" or spigot wash to field clean it. Spurs are available at an autobody supply shop or auto parts store but I really, really dislike them and find there is not much need for one at all.

A trick I use for a "field clean" of the pads is to remove the pad from the buffer and rinse it under a boatyard spigot scrubbing it with my fingers until it's clean or in a 5-gallon bucket filled about 1/3 with fresh clean water. I then re-install the pad on the buffer and spin it at the buffer's highest speed inside a 5-gallon bucket to catch the sling. Spin it until no more water spins off on the inside of the bucket. Once done with that use a towel to get it as close to dry as possible. This is the method I use as I feel it's much more thorough than a spur and does not make your pad black from metallic residue. With water-based compounds a "field clean" is very easy!!

Field Clean - Wash:


Field Clean - Spin Dry:


Cautions On Cheap Products & Pad Care

A word of caution about "cheap" compounds and polishes that may contain silicone or wax or oils. These silicones or oils will not easily wash out or come, clean of the pads and will eventually ruin them. Use water-based 3M, Presta Products or similar but carefully read the labels to make sure it says, "does not contain silicone". If a product says "paintable" or "body shop safe" it most likely does not contain silicone.

As for the microfiber, rags do not use any sort of fabric softener it will ruin the rags. You can wash them on warm or hot though...

Compound / Polish products I use:

My favorites:

Presta Products - Gelcoat Compound
= Heavy compound but finishes with a deep shine
Presta Products - Ultra Cutting Creme = Starts medium/heavy but diminishes & finishes comparable to Finesse It II
Presta Products - Chroma = Glaze

If your boat is not too badly oxidized Ultra Cutting Creme with a 3M #05713 pad can get you there in just one step plus the wax..! This is my absolute favorite product for compounding / polishing.

Others:

3M Marine Super Rubbing Compound
3M Finesse It - Polish
Meguiars #9 Swirl Remover - Fine polish that makes a great gelcoat glaze

Wax I use:

Collinite #885 Fleet Wax - Paste Version (Contains less than 2% silicone most of its competitors contain 30% or more silicone)

I cut my teeth on concourse quality cars like this. My father would have been pretty unhappy with me if I toasted a 25-30k paint job.. Boats are easy compared to cars like this.;)



EDIT:

This photo was sent to me by forum member RBone who read this and previously had little experience. YES, it CAN be done..;)
 
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#140 ·
Alright, almost everything is on order, including gallon sized Presta product. Really not that bad, in for ~$550 as I was starting from absolutely nothing. I figure I'll have enough product for at least 2 years if not more so price per year isn't bad.

Have a few questions:
What do I do with windows, rub rail, etc? I'm thinking you tape over everything that isn't FG? I would think you don't want to sand those parts.

How do people do small areas, like in the cockpit? I am thinking just to apply with a hand applicator, but I'm not sure if you can do this with a compound or not? Perhaps I don't need to do the cockpit since it's usually covered, I'll have to see what it looks like.

How do you clean/shine the non-skid sections?

My boat isn't chalky (nothing comes off on my hands), it's white and a tiny bit shiney but nothing like a deep shine. I'm thinking to start with the Gel Coat Compound to make sure I've got a good base. Is it possible that I can do harm starting with this compound if I don't need to? Here is what the hull looks like now:
 
#143 ·
Went through the whole thing (FSR, compound, polish, wash), followed instructions to the letter. I bought the Makita and all the recommended pads and products (all 3M). Set me back close to 300.- Was it worth it?

ABSOLUTELY!

A BIG thanks to Mainesail! I can truly say that my boat hasn't looked this good for as long as I own it (>10 years). This is a 1976 32' Columbia. Took about 2 whole days and I slept very well after each of them. Excellent upper-body exercise!

A question: As I said, I followed all instructions to the letter. However, when I was doing the waxing, I wondered whether microfiber rags are really the best for this, rather than terrycloth. I totally see that microfibers are better for compounding and polishing since the goal is to remove the product. However, for waxing the primary goal is to spread the wax finely (and, secondarily, remove excess). Wouldn't terry cloth even better for this?

I am now hunting for a smaller pad. I read through the thread and some were recommended but after purchasing the Makita, I sure don't want to buy another tool (like a Metabo angle polisher). So I am just looking for a 3" or 4" pad for smaller areas on the deck that will fit on either the Makita (preferably) or, if necessary, on a power drill or my Porter Cable random orbit sander. If anyone has a suggestion, lemme know.

A note. I was amazed at the number of microfiber rags I needed for compounding. Close to 20, I guess. A lot less in the other stages, maybe a half dozen for polishing and 3 for waxing. I also used nearly a bottle of compound (what are they, a pint maybe?) and perhaps 1/4 of the Finesse-It bottle (which is a lot bigger, maybe a half gallon?).

Anyway, again thanks to MaineSail. You rock!
 
#148 ·
In the current issue of soundings Mike Borrelli on page 100 says:
"You can bring back the gloss finish by wet sanding, buffing and polishing, but this is not a long-term solution. the result is short-lived and the fading often comes back within a year."

He may have been referring only to darker-colored gel-coats it was not clear.

This does not make sense to me. Once it was protected again I would think it would say good for a long time.
 
#149 ·
What does he propose as the long-term solution? Is it an advertiser's product?

I agree that it does not make sense. I would think that once you've restored the original finish by removing the oxide, re-establishing a factory-smooth finish, and protecting with wax, it should last about as long as the original finish lasted.
 
#152 · (Edited)
...If your boat is not to badly oxidized Ultra Cutting Creme with a 3M #05713 pad can get you there in just one step plus the wax..! This is my absolute favorite product for compounding / polishing...
Since my boat was in pretty good shape (only 13 years old, maintained OK by previous owners - I mainly needed to remove some stale yellowed wax), I followed this part of MS's advice. The result looks great.

After the one-step port side compound/polish using the Presta, I started a glaze step using Maguire's #9 (since I could not find Presta Chroma locally). However, after doing a small section, it was having absolutely no effect on the appearance, so I stopped after glazing the port side bootstripe. The next day I did the Presta cream on the starboard side, and I was racing against the diminishing shade on that side, so I did not even glaze the bootstripe. If there are invisible swirl marks that will speed up oxidation, I expect that I'll see a difference between the boot stripes on the two sides of the boat. Time will tell.

...Do I apply the wax by hand? Yes!...
In previous years I had used a 6" palm orbital buffer for the Collinite Fleet wax, but this time I found that with the superior surface prep (compound/polish to a high gloss before waxing), the wax buffed out easily by hand with microfiber rag - no need for the electric buffer. It also seemed to take much less wax than it did before, probably due to the reduced surface area.

Also, for boats with only mild oxidation, a big Makita polisher might be overkill. I tried using my 6" orbital buffer to compound/polish the sides of the cabin using Presta Ultra cream, and it easily removed the stale wax and mild oxidation, leaving a surface gloss that was equal in appearance to the hull. For small boats that don't need a 9" pad, and for intricate details that are too small to fit such a large polisher, the smaller buffer seemed to work OK. It's a lot easier on the arms and back, as well. Once again, over time I'll get an idea how this part of the boat holds up vs. the different technique that I used for the hull.
 
#153 ·
I think my gelcoat is too far gone to ever look 'great' again, but I'm getting some very satisfying results using the techniques in this thread.

The boat is 30 years old and was taken by the marina for unpaid fees. The last reg sticker is 2008 so it has been on the hard and ignored for at least three years; hard to imagine that the PO kept up with all the maintenance and then never paid the slip fees, so let's assume the neglect started a couple of years before '08.

I wasted some time with rubbing compound when I should have started with 1000 grit sandpaper. I backtracked and did the sanding. It was getting late in the day and I wanted to have something to show for my efforts, so I did the 'full monty' on the first 2 feet of the port side (I had already scraped off the old reg letters and prepped the upper part).

Wet sand
Compound by hand
Polish
Wax (2 coats)

Neither the polish nor the wax are all they could be because I didn't have the bonnets to do them with the buffer (plus the shop was locked up, no power anyway). But what I have looks a helluva lot better. It should look a little better every year that I compound it.

In the pic, you can see some kind of reflection from the boat next door and nothing in the unimproved area. Also the forward 2 feet of the boot stripe looks much better.
 

Attachments

#154 · (Edited)
Mike Borrelli called me in response to my email. The following is my take on what he told me. I promised him I would send a link to this thread so he could come on this forum and correct my quotations and add some clarification to his article in Soundings.
I don't know MaineSail very well but I suspect he will welcome some other expert comments. We have all benefited greatly from RC's generous help.

What I learned from Mike is that gel-coat and Algrip are targeting two very different audiences.
On the one hand you have one audience that wants a durable finish that can last a lifetime and look good. This is the gel-coat people.
On the other hand you have the people who want the ultimate see your nose hair in the reflection shine for as long as possible, these are the Algrip people.

And yes RC he agreed that people that take good care of their Algrip can get 15 to 20 years out of it. As proof of the superior shine that can be expected from paint he referenced the new boats that come out of the mold with gelcoat but are painted before leaving the factory. These are super high-end boats.

He was adamant however that an old gel coated boat that was heavily oxidized and sanded, compounded, polished then waxed would at the end of year start to loose the shine.

Now RC gave me an idea of how to reconcile the two different expert comments.
I suspect that Mike does most of his work for very demanding clients and his jobs cost perhaps well over 10 to 30 thousand dollars maybe much more.
A gel-coat refurb job is never going to be perfect on a 30 year old boat. There will be dings and scratches that will not compound out and the patch color will never match perfectly and as MS said the labor to do the final polish will be significant.
If after the second year the deepness of the shine fades even a little bit that will add even more insult. For these customers Mike can give them a guaranteed 10 year job, 15 to twenty if they take care of it and the color and shine and everything will be perfect for at least 10 years.
For these customers that makes sense.
He also mentioned that on darker colors he clear-coats so in case of a ding he can do a repair that doesn't show, another benefit.

For those of us who don't mind an extra weekend or two polishing our boat and 98% of the boat looks like 100% for the first year and maybe 90% for a few years after that the restore process makes our boat look awesome and costs only maybe a hundred bucks in supplies.

I will send this to Mike and see what he has to say.
And of course we are all interested in what Maine Sail has to say.
 
#155 ·
My gel coat was sad looking at best. Oxidized, scuffed, scratched and gouged.
I was seriously considering getting her painted when the local fiberglass guy
pointed out that he could easily repair the few chips and gouges in the gel coat
but that it these would be much harder to repair if the surface had been
Awlgrip.

I gave him the go ahead to repair the 3 worst gel coat gouges. Now
I can't even tell where they were. He made them disappear.

Next, after reading Mail Sail's post and all the follow up posts, I
decided to give his technique a try. I followed his recommendations
to a tee. I purchased the Makita 9227C, the 3M pads he recommended
and Presta Gel Coat Compound and Presta polishing stuff.

The compounding produced amazing results. I did also polish
after the compounding but it was very hard to see any improvement
over just the compounding. I then applied a coat of NuFinsh
because I already had some (as opposed to wax).

The boat looks amazing. I hope it will prevent the rash at the water line
that forms after the boat is in the water for a few weeks.

I think I saved myself thousands of dollars for a new paint job. Thanks Maine
Sail!

Anyone have any recommendation for how to compound the cockpit where most of the
surfaces area is too small to use the Makita on. Can it be done by hand?
 
#158 · (Edited)
Maine:
Many thanks for a superb description of the tools and processes of spiffing up your boat. I intend to follow it to the letter.

One question: for the small, tight places where the Makita is awkward and cumbersome, can I use my Makita 6" random orbit sander instead? Otherwise, I'll have to apply the buffing/polishing coats by hand; that will be a lot of elbow grease and won't produce a uniform result, I'm afraid.

Thanks again,

Lopezian

P.S. Belay the question. After doing what I should have done first--read all the responses to Maine's initial post--I see the question's been asked and answered more than once. So, onward with the orbital for the decks, cockpit, and cabin. But thanks once again to Maine Sail for a truly valuable post.
 
#159 · (Edited)
For (heavily discounted) sale: complete package of buffing tools and materials as specified by Maine Sail. (No, this isn't your usual spam.)

Sailors and Fellow Gelcoat Polishers:

I've grossly overreached. Reading Maine Sail's description of restoring gelcoat, I was so enthusiastic I purchased online his recommended tools and materials to the letter.

When the Presta products arrived, before the Makita buffer, I worked over by hand a small patch in the cockpit with Presta Gel Coat Compound. Amazing. A blinding, glossy surface appeared. Hey, this will be a cinch, sez I to myself.

It was not to be.

Undertaking the project with a full bag of tools and supplies, I could NOT replicate my first euphoric success. The best I could do with Gel Coat Compound was a cleaner, brighter surface but still dull and flat.

What the hell?

Turns out the patch I worked on was almost new gelcoat, applied by the previous owner in repairing some damage, and was only very slightly oxidized. The rest of the boat was built in 1985, however, and apparently has had little done to it since.

What I've concluded now is discouraging. I'll have to start wet sanding, probably with 400 grit ( tried 600, and that hardly touched it), and on up in steps to 1000, the most abrasive sanding that Gel Coat Compound can smooth out.

Well, at 79 years of age I'm both too feeble and too saavy to go over the boat four times with wet-or-dry and then do 5 coats of compound, polish, glaze, and Collinite twice--as Maine Sail recommends.

I intend to farm out the job to a far younger, far more vigorous boat shiner at my local boatyard.

So I have for sale:
1 Makita 9227C, with both handles, carrying bag, and accessories
1 32oz bottle each of Presta Gel Coat Compound, Ultra Cutting Creme, and Chroma
1 3M Compounding Pad #05711, unused
1 3M Polishing Pad 05713, unused
1 3M Foam Polishing Pad #05725, unused
1 Makita Compounding Pad (used once and cleaned)
3 Makita Polishing Pads (unused)
1 can Collinite 885

I'm truly disappointed it's come to this. I was looking forward to a few pleasant days of working on the boat and a spectacular result. But not all the wet sanding, thanks.

$275 for the lot.

Lopezian

.
 
#160 ·
For (heavily discounted) sale: complete package of buffing tools and materials as specified by Maine Sail. (No, this isn't your usual spam.)

Sailors and Fellow Gelcoat Polishers:

I've grossly overreached. Reading Maine Sail's description of restoring gelcoat, I was so enthusiastic I purchased online his recommended tools and materials to the letter.

When the Presta products arrived, before the Makita buffer, I worked over by hand a small patch in the cockpit with Presta Gel Coat Compound. Amazing. A blinding, glossy surface appeared. Hey, this will be a cinch, sez I to myself.

It was not to be.

Undertaking the project with a full bag of tools and supplies, I could NOT replicate my first euphoric success. The best I could do with Gel Coat Compound was a cleaner, brighter surface but still dull and flat.

What the hell?

Turns out the patch I worked on was almost new gelcoat, applied by the previous own in repairing some damage, and was only very slightly oxidized. The rest of the boat was built in 1985, however, and apparently has had little done to it since.

What I've concluded now is discouraging. I'll have to start wet sanding, probably with 400 grit ( tried 600, and that hardly touched it), and on up in steps to 1000, the most abrasive sanding that Gel Coat Compound can smooth out.

Well, at 79 years of age I'm both too feeble and too saavy to go over the boat four times with wet-or-dry and then do 5 coats of compound, polish, glaze, and Collinite twice--as Maine Sail recommends.

I intend to farm out the job to a far younger, far more vigorous boat shiner at my local boatyard.

So I have for sale:
1 Makita 9227C, with both handles, carrying bag, and accessories
1 32oz bottle each of Presta Gel Coat Compound, Ultra Cutting Creme, and Chroma
1 3M Compounding Pad #05711, unused
1 3M Polishing Pad 05713, unused
1 3M Foam Polishing Pad #05725, unused
1 Makita Compounding Pad (used once and cleaned)
3 Makita Polishing Pads (unused)
1 can Collinite 885

I'm truly disappointed it's come to this. I was looking forward to a few pleasant days of working on the boat and a spectacular result. But not all the wet sanding, thanks.

$275 for the lot.

Lopezian

.
Lets not thorw in the towel just yet. Can you tell us what exactly you did. What was the pad. What speeds were you using, how much compound, was the pad dry when you started or damp? Even a badly oxidized hull will shine up with Presta Gelcoat. It will look better if you wet sand but it should not be flat.

If you started at a slow speed did you ever increase it? Increasing the speed breaks the grit down to a finer grade and creates a better shine. If you keep is slow the whole time you may not get the desired result. You don't need to go great guns on speed but you do need to go fast enough to break the grit down to finer particles.

I can fully understand your frustration at 79 I can only hope to be alive let alone buffing a boat with a 7 pound machine.!! Great attitude!!

BTW that is a STEAL for all that gear.... Sorry it did not work for you but A+ for the effort..
 
#162 ·
MS--

I appreciate your sympathy as much as your expertise, but the towel has been irretrievably tossed.

On the topsides of the boat I didn't use the 9227C at all. What I did I did by hand. When the Presta Gelcoat yielded essentially nothing, I recalled reading somewhere that old wax will impede the compounding, so I took a healthy Scotchbrite pad and a strong solution of dishwashing detergent and scrubbed like hell for a while. Then I tried the Presta again. Not much if any improvement. So it's back to studying Maine Sail's very knowledgeable instructions--particularly about the possible need to wet sand. OK. Start with 600. Did that, waiting for SOME gloss to show up. A very little bit did--sort of a sheen, not a shine. Try the Presta again. Not much help. Another swipe of wet sanding. Etc.

I was gaining ground but very slowly, so concluded I'd have to back off to a 400 grit. Then the 600, then 800, then 1000, and finally back to Presta products.

Whoa, Old Timer, you're getting close to a "project boat" situation here.

If I hire a pro to detail my boat, he'll use a power wet-sander, very likely, and your advice about an amateur trying that is sound: don't do it.

So I will follow that sage suggestion and look up a detailer indeed.

But thanks again for a thorough and savvy (and appealing!) discussion of gelcoat maintenance. Wish I'd run across that long ago.

But I've found Sailnet and its congenial, savvy sailors. I'll stick around here.

Cheers,

Lopezian
 
#163 ·
MastUndSchotbruch,

Thanks for the suggestion, but I do think I need a pro. My major problem is my ignorance of this whole process, in particular in diagnosing the level of oxidation and prescribing the appropriate treatment. I wouldn't know what to tell a young bucko with a strong back exactly what I want done. If you or Maine Sail were looking over my shoulder telling me what is needed, I find that bucko in a flash. But it's off to the detailer shop for me and Rowdy, my dear old (and shabby) Flicka. Thanks again.
 
#168 ·
I went to the Presta website to find dealers for their products. The local Presta dealer also had a full complement of 3M pads.

In general, I'd expect every auto paint supplier to carry them. There are thousands of them, often in out-of-the-way industrial parks.
 
#169 ·
Maine Sail,

Per your suggestion, I purchased the Makita 9227C kit which came with two polishing pads; a white and a yellow. My hull has some shine and is in fairly good shape so I intend to start at step 4 with the Finesse-it II and then finish up with the Collinite 885 applied by hand and then buffed out with microfiber cloths. The question I have is which of the two pads, the white or the yellow, should I use. The yellow has a finer nap.

TIA,

Arclight
 
#172 ·
Well, everything on the way. Now for the tough part. Should start a night or two a week after work next week. Hopefully I can have everything wrapped up by mid June.

I ended up purchasing the Makita 9227C from Amazon. 3M pads from Napa. Compound/Polish from Presta. 4" Lake County Pads from autogeek.net. Sure wish some retailer out there made it easy and stocked all these products in one place.
 
#173 ·
. . . 4" Lake County Pads from autogeek.net . . . Sure wish some retailer out there made it easy and stocked all these products in one place.
Please let us know how the foam pads work out - I ended up using the green wool from Presta for the glaze - noticable difference. Guy at Autogeek had never heard of Presta :rolleyes:

With the exception of the polisher, I got all of my product from here at very competitive prices + free shipping.

Body Shop Tools Air Tools Accessories Power Air Tools Automotive Tools

Am I allowed to post this link?
 
#174 ·
I've been reading this thread with interest as it would apply to my deck and cockpit.

Wonder if anyone could comment on cleaning and care for a 10 year old AWLGRIP job?

I have several areas of black steaks and having a terrible job of removing them. I tried applying star brite black stain remover but it certainly did take away some of the AWLGRIP shine, even when leaving on for a very short 20 second period a gentle rub and then wash with clean water.

How can I remove the old name from an AWLGRIP hull without compounding?

I know that I'm not supposed to compound or use any buffing on AWLGRIP and I'm at a loss to get the marks from the black stains and old name vinyl out ?

Any ideas

Thanks
 
#175 ·
Hoping to get an estimate on amount of product needed for a 40' boat?

After reading and trying to get smarter am looking at the Collinite #885 (12 oz tin) and Presta Ultra Cutting Creme followed by Chroma.

I'd like to get the right amount of product needed a the nearby Body Shop and not get left short with 10% of the job left.

Does anyone have a guess-timate on how much they need for a 40 footer?
 
#176 ·
Hoping to get an estimate on amount of product needed for a 40' boat?

After reading and trying to get smarter am looking at the Collinite #885 (12 oz tin) and Presta Ultra Cutting Creme followed by Chroma.

I'd like to get the right amount of product needed a the nearby Body Shop and not get left short with 10% of the job left.

Does anyone have a guess-timate on how much they need for a 40 footer?
The amount of Presta would largely depend on how oxidized your gelcoat is. Mine was very lightly oxidized, so I used it very sparingly and did my 25' hull and part of the topsides with about half of a 32 oz. bottle. A lightly oxidized 40 footer would probably use 3-4x that (higher freeboard makes the area go up more than linearly), and even more for heavy oxidation.

Be aware that Presta has many different container types and sizes that are not shown on their website (gallon bottles, gallon tubs). My local shop had a 100-128 oz tub of the stuff (can't remember exact size). It was 3x-4x the size of the bottle for only 2x the price. I like tubs better because you don't have the yield loss from stuff sticking to the inside walls of a bottle, but the tub would have been way too much for my needs. Obviously, the tubs don't have as much shelf life as the bottles because they don't seal as well. But for your boat, a tub would me a very economical way to go since you're going to use a lot of it right away.

From my experience with the 885, I think you could do the whole boat with one can. Proper polishing with the Presta will reduce the amount of wax needed.
 
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