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Full or fin keel?

191K views 846 replies 107 participants last post by  mstern 
#1 ·
Can somebody pro/con a full vs. fin keel for a newbie (will learn to sail on said boat) and taking it thru the Caribbean? All I can seem to come up with so far is fin keel is better to the wind, and a full keel will protect your rudder.
 
#302 ·
wolfenzee

I an not suggesting that your boat isn't efficient, pleasing to the eye, or a good sea boat. You are pleased and that is what counts.

I am suggesting that most do not want a boat from another era, that isn't roomy, and is similar to the Hiscock`s Wanderer III - a great boat from another time.
 
#303 · (Edited)
In a thread discussing the merits of the new wide boats vs the older narrow ones...my response was "I chose grace over space".
A friend of mine has A Catalina 30....for a live aboard it wins over mine hands down...but aside from the advantages of my boat at sea, a plastic production boat just isn't my style. A boat, especially if it is your home, is a very personal thing and you should get what you are most comfortable with...remember the only person you need to impress is yourself.
 
#308 ·
A CS27 is not the ideal ocean cruiser for a family, or even a couple. But it will do what I want as a singlehander and it is roomy enough.

My ideal boat? Lottery win required.:)

A 50' version of Dashew's Sundeer in aluminum, or a Boreal 44 or 50

The Alubat Cigale is a great boat but the keel is too deep for many places.

More affordably I think Perry's Saga 43 would make a great ocean cruiser, as would the Saga 35 for less money.

None are considered wide boats, and the Sundeer type is very narrow.
 
#315 · (Edited)
The marketing industry has a huge impact on the decisions made by people when it comes to gear as well as boats...if people were to make decisions based on thier own experience, the knowledge of others as well as what just plain suited them best, what people choose would be far different. But our ecomony is based on decisions made by the marketing industry...just look a what people buy across the board and where peoples material priorities lay.
My boat isn't the latest greatest fanciest high tech...as a matter of fact she has alot of stuff most people have never heard of they are so "obsolete"...most of the stuff on the boat was found on boats when she was lauched 40 years ago (and alot of that wasn't so different from when the boat was designed 75 years ago...just logical upgrades). On thing I picked up from my father was to think things through, I spent 30 years looking at other peoples good ideas and bad ideas before I found what suited me best..then I proceeded to customize her to make my boat just what I want.
 
#316 ·
......just look a what people buy across the board and where peoples material priorities lay.
Yes, sailors buy the boats that they want to buy, no doubt about that and most of them buy the best their money can afford. Only some lucky ones buy just what they really want (I am not one of them).

But I don't agree that most sailors don't know what kind of boat they want neither that their choice is not adequate to their life style, sailing taste, cruising grounds and of course limited by the boundaries of their budget, at least for most.

Regards

Paulo
 
#317 ·
Reality is, as I have said before, the proper Keel of a given boat, on a proper scantling built boat for the purpose etc, is the way to go.

As also mentioned, we ALL hopefully buy a boat to use base on our needs. Yeah I could have bought a full keel boat for the same cost as my mid 80s Jeanneau. Reality is, I would NOT be happy here in pugetsound with a full keel boat! A fin keel for me is the way to go for how I sail, about 70% racing, 30% cruising or daysailing. With winds down in the less than 10knots a lot, works well. I would imagine if the full keelers I compared my boat too earlier, could get into the 24-1 SA disp ratio, they too "might" be fun in the lighter winds. If not, not as much so. You also get the takes 20 knots to get something moving from boats like the two I compared too, As they are in the 12 or 15-1 range with 6000 lbs of boat. Granted in 30 knots of wind, I have a double reef in, with a 110 , they are still sailing barely with a full main and 110....but compare teh SA/disp of the three, they are about the same!

Not sure the other two would also sail into their slip in less than 5 knots of wind with a main alon at 1-15 knots of boat speed. 40-45 knots of wind, 4-6' seas, no issue for my boat either. Can not remember how mine is vs a westsnail 32 I was on in the mid 70s in the sound with 40-50 knot winds. both do fine. The Westsnail was double reefed with a staysail up. Plowed along in the 4-6' waves too.

Reality is, one needs a boat for their own needs. Some like paulo and I, will take a fin. Others have spoken about prefering a fin even those that go across oceans etc. If I were to head across an ocean today, it would not be a full keel. MOre than likely a fin, maybe a moderate. Probably not. The new HR looks like a sweet sailing machine, as do the Hanse's etc.

With that, we should all agree to disagree!

Marty
 
#318 ·
Reality is, as I have said before, the proper Keel of a given boat, on a proper scantling built boat for the purpose etc, is the way to go.

As also mentioned, we ALL hopefully buy a boat to use base on our needs. Yeah I could have bought a full keel boat for the same cost as my mid 80s Jeanneau. Reality is, I would NOT be happy here in pugetsound with a full keel boat! A fin keel for me is the way to go for how I sail, about 70% racing, 30% cruising or daysailing. With winds down in the less than 10knots a lot, works well. I would imagine if the full keelers I compared my boat too earlier, could get into the 24-1 SA disp ratio, they too "might" be fun in the lighter winds. If not, not as much so. You also get the takes 20 knots to get something moving from boats like the two I compared too, As they are in the 12 or 15-1 range with 6000 lbs of boat. Granted in 30 knots of wind, I have a double reef in, with a 110 , they are still sailing barely with a full main and 110....but compare teh SA/disp of the three, they are about the same!

Not sure the other two would also sail into their slip in less than 5 knots of wind with a main alon at 1-15 knots of boat speed. 40-45 knots of wind, 4-6' seas, no issue for my boat either. Can not remember how mine is vs a westsnail 32 I was on in the mid 70s in the sound with 40-50 knot winds. both do fine. The Westsnail was double reefed with a staysail up. Plowed along in the 4-6' waves too.

Reality is, one needs a boat for their own needs. Some like paulo and I, will take a fin. Others have spoken about prefering a fin even those that go across oceans etc. If I were to head across an ocean today, it would not be a full keel. MOre than likely a fin, maybe a moderate. Probably not. The new HR looks like a sweet sailing machine, as do the Hanse's etc.

With that, we should all agree to disagree!

Marty
Yes, lets agree to disagree... without calling each others boats derogatory names. Some cannot manage to do this unfortunately.
 
#324 ·
I'm really enjoying the discussion here and I was wondering if someone with the requisit knowledge can speak to the S&S designed Yankee Dolphin and the Dolphin S&S designed Dolphin with fin keel for the Austrailian market. Keels aside the vessels are identical, blue water capable and trailerable.

It is my understanding based on the wonderful Dolphin websight that both are exceptional cruisers but it's hard to say which is the better perfoming vessel. I would be inclined to think that the Aussie version is but then again the US version was campaigned successfully for many years in the MORC which may explain the benefits of the centerboard in the full keel design.
 
#326 ·
I had never heard of the Dolphin until you bring it up. Interesting boat. I have the S&S 34 (looks just like the Dolphin except longer). It is interesting that S&S designed the S&S 34 that was also marketed as a Tartan 34, but the boats are totally different (interesting the Tartan 34 also had a centerboard option).
Regards
 
#336 ·
This is an interesting discussion, but why in the last few pages has the Island Packet become a benchmark for heavy displacement? There are a great many heavy boats I admire that sail well, but Island Packet? They are certainly heavy but have also bowed to the "cram in a lot of accommodation" theory.
 
#340 ·
Daily Alice

Yes, a full keel heavy boat will be more comfortable than a light flat bottom fin keel boat. But not all fin keel boats are flat bottom, there are many moderate displacement fin keel boats, with the rudders usually on skeg and far aft where they are more effective than angled down farther forward at the end of the keel.
 
#343 ·
This is the scenario that is always presented by people that are not knowledgeable about full keel boats. I would like to say that it is a completely unfounded argument as full keel boats do sail to weather. Granted, a few more degrees off the wind than a racer/fin keel boat. I think this is another specious argument created to detract from the virtues of the full keel/modified full keel cruiser.
 
#352 · (Edited)
very interesting read from one of those luxury builders (Gozzard) that build bluewater boats for ages regarding their keel choice and their evolution from full keel to a modified fin keel:

We have a unique perspective when it comes to keel design (philosophy) by having had many years of practical experience with a full keel, a modified full keel with a "Brewer Bite" and our current configuration; a modified fin keel with fully skeg protected rudder ...

Prior to 1980 all Ted's designs were based on the traditional full keel. By the mid 80's our keels evolved into a modified full keel by employing the Brewer Bit (first designed by Ted Brewer). Essentially it was a full keel design with a large section cut away in front of the rudder. ...

In 1999 we modified the keel again (along with a complete redress of the hull structure). This time we further decreased the wetted surface and used a real 64 Series NACA foil section. The new keel was a little shorter (fore and aft), taller and far more defined. Still too large to be called a fin keel but at the same time it could not really be called a modified full keel either.

The results were very positive. The biggest improvement is in performance without any noticeable loss of sea keeping ability. In fact the new design is easier to control, lighter on the helm and obviously faster in all points of sail.

Why do we like a Modified Fin over a Full or a true Fin Keel?

A typical fin keel used on your average club racer/cruiser has a significant performance advantage over your typical full keel - of this there is no question. A fin keel sails far better (especially to weather) and affords superior maneuverability both under sail and power (especially in reverse).

There is also no question that full keels have some advantages over a narrow fin and they include better tracking (especially in quartering seas), being obviously more durable structurally by simply having far more contact area with the bottom of the hull and allowing lower CG (center of gravity) storage capacity (which would make the boat more stable).

For the modern cruiser concerned with safety and comfort, obviously the requirements should more closely favor the full keel characteristics at the expense of the higher performance fin... right? Well, not so fast ... .

Full keel designs have very limited directional stability in reverse as they have a tendency to either go straight or walk in the direction of the prop rotation.

They will not steer in reverse unless you have enough speed over the rudder to counter the massive lateral plain of the keel. This means you have to have water flow (and a good deal of it) over the rudder before you will gain any ability to control direction... this often means you are going way too fast for the situation. Any one who tells you any differently is either trying to sell you a full keel boat or has never experienced anything else. ...

For many this fear is real and far worse than getting caught out in any bad storm. You will often find these owners are very reluctant to take their boats into unknown situations which limits their freedom and ability to use the boat.

Full keels do not turn very well... while full keels do have the advantage of a lot of lateral resistance on some points of sail, they generally sail very poorly to weather. It is not that the boat can't point to weather; it is the fact that the leeway is so bad you will find it is much faster (Velocity Made Good or VMG) to crack off and build speed to allow the keel to work with its lateral surface.

Unlike a full keel, a fin keel can create lift to offset the leeway (to a degree). It does this by utilizing an airfoil shape similar to that of a jet's wing which is designed to work at high speeds and, as it turns out, water has very similar hydrodynamic properties at low speed to air at high speed. All the various foil sections have been developed and tested and the simple fact is that there is a relationship between the shape of the foil and the length of the cord compared to the width. ... To try and claim a full keel can create lift is misleading at best as any lift it can create is offset negatively (if not completely) by the increased wetted surface of the keel itself.

Wetted Surface - As a vessel passes through the water it physically moves the water around the boat and this creates friction. The more wetted surface the water has contact with, the more effort is required to move the boat. Obviously a full keel has far more wetted surface than a smaller keel.

....



The Gozzard is a very very conservative boat builder and it is not an example of a modern bluewater boat. Brands like Malo, Oyster, Najad, Halberg-rassy Moody, Morris have also done that way, I mean from full keel, to modified full keel, to modified fin keel. The difference is that all these have already passed from a modified fin keel to a fin keel and I guess Gozzard will do that one day, if it does not bankrupt first.

Regards

Paulo
 
#353 ·
Nothing new in your argument here Paulo. Except that its funny that the manufacturers first reason of why not to buy a full keel boat is because they don't back up under power well..... and people are more afraid of docking than they are of an offshore storm. Really?

They forgot to mention that the fin keel boat is cheaper to manufacture as well. I wonder why?
 
#356 ·
No problem. Thanks for the kind words. If you would like I would be glad to send you cleaner versions of those discussions electronically. They appeared to have been selected from edited versions and then further edited. ;)
 
#355 · (Edited)
Full or fin keel and a dozen other marginally related topics

This thread sure has taken a tortuous track from the original question about the merits of Fin vs Full keels. Coming back to the thread, I find myself thinking; Are you still here?
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But in its wild path, the thread has opened a whole slew of issues with various folks seemingly talking past each other, rather than having a productive and vaguely linear dialogue on the original topic of keel types.

It seems to me that much of this non-linearity has been caused by the sheer broad range of the topics being used, and the points diffused the loose association between the responsed and the topic being bandied about, and the sometimes dubious assumptions about the implicit connection between these various design factors. To me, in many cases, the connection between many of the indivdual comment and the responses to the point being raised, at best comes off as a real stretch and at worst, comes off as, 'I don't know nothing about art, nor understand your point, but I know what flavor ice cream I like' type non-sequitors. It would seem as if this discussion would be a lot more productive if the topics were treated separated rather being discussed with the assumption that they are a lot more linked than I would respectfully suggest that they are.

To try to help clarify this point, I would suggest that a brief index of the discussion topics contained within this thread might include:
• The merits and limitations of fin keels versus full keels.
• Boats operating as a system rather than as individual components discussed in abstract
• How most people who sail use their boats (day sailing and coastal cruising) and what those people need out of their boats, vs. more specialized uses such as offshore-distance cruising, performance passage makers, high level racers, and racer-cruisers.
• The impact of marketing vs. science in the selection of a boat by the general boat buying public.
• The impact of marketing vs. science in the selection of a boat by the offshore cruising boat buying public.
• Why Island Packets are not a good example of either traditional full keeled cruising boats nor of modern design principle, but somehow seem to be able to market themselves as both.
• The impact of cost on selection if the goal is one of these specialized uses.
• The merits and limitations of boats which are short or long for their displacement.
• The merits and limitations of various hull forms, and the impact of modeling on the success of a design of any general type.
• The merits of simplicity vs. sophistication vs. targeted sophistication.

I am sure that I am missing other topics that reared their ugly little heads, but it seems to me it would be a lot more useful, if people tried to make thier arguments based on points that were actually being made, and with the topic it was being mentioned in. Instead, it appears that many of the participants respond with an answer that only relates to a completely different topic relative to the point being contested and/or which at best perhaps assumes some association to the point raised.

For example, the thread starts with a very broad general discussion of keel types. The counter to some point in that discussion is an argument that boats that are longer or shorter for their weight make better offshore cruisers. To which the response is that the hull forms popular on coastal cruisers are less comfortable for offshore use. To which, the response is that coastal cruiser hull forms perform better. To which the response is that full fledged, grand prix level race boats are fragile. And so on. It sure makes for a confusing, and less useful thread, that taken at face value is not even all that accurate. But at least it has been mostly been civil…

Jeff
 
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#370 ·
Re: Full or fin keel and a dozen other marginally related topics

Jeff, glad you are back.

• Why Island Packets are not a good example of either traditional full keeled cruising boats nor of modern design principle, but somehow seem to be able to market themselves as both.
I'd love to hear your opinion on this particular one (I mean the first part, not the 'how do they market themselves') because I almost bought one last year but then decided that I don't need a full keel for the Long Island Sound.
 
#360 ·
Another topic



Thank you for the kind words. I wrote this for someone else who asked a similar question so I apolize that it is pretty long. Growing up I wanted to be a yacht designer. Like some kids study and memorize batting averages, I studied and memorized boats. I have some training as a yacht designer and have designed and built a few boats, and worked for naval architects and yacht designers at different times in my life, BUT I do not consider myself a professional yacht designer. I have also worked in boat yards and as a consultant to boatyard owners, designing repairs and alterations to yachts. My mother had two companies that built and imported boats from Taiwan, which gave me a lot of insights into the boat building industry. I still attend yacht design symposia in an effort to remain current in yacht design theory.

I first started sailing in 1961 and more or less have sailed ever since. I enjoy most types of sailing. I currently sail on the Chesapeake Bay but have sailed on much of the U.S. Atlantic coast. In a given year, I typically will daysail, race (both my own boat and other people's boats), and cruise (both my own boat and other people's boats) and can be out on the water as many as 100 days a year. I do a lot of single-handing. While I have cruised offshore and made a number of offshore passage, I strongly prefer coastal cruising. While I have raced dinghies and very high performance boats, I prefer racing 22 to 40foot keelboats. I have owned wooden boats and enjoy sailing on traditional watercraft. These days I prefer to own modern performance cruisers.

In a general sense, I have strong preferences for boats that perform well, and that offer a wide range of sailing abilities in a wide range of conditions. I really am no longer a fan of 'heavy weight offshore boats'. I currently own a Farr 38 (Farr 11.6) which I daysail, singlehand and cruise. The Farr 11.6 are hard to classify boats and not exactly your normal off-the-rack cruising boat or racing boat. They were built as fast offshore cruisers but have had a very successful racing record. They also have a remarkable record as short-handed offshore passage makers. For example, my boat was single-handed into the States from Cape Town, South Africa

In my life, I have owned over a dozen boats with family members owning over several dozen more. I typically race on a variety of boats over the course of the year and sometimes help out with deliveries, or help a new owner 'sort out' a boat that is new to them. I also like sailing up to boats from astern and observing their sailing abilities, meaning relative speed, stability and motion. All of that combined gives me a relative sense of how many different boats are built and how they sail. I have also been a consultant to people who are restoring boats or making tricky repairs which has given me the chance to crawl around the back corners of many boats over the years and I have a pretty good memory of the details which I have seen.

Many of my friends are yacht designers, sailmakers, and marine researchers and surveyors who collectively also give me an inside track when I am researching a topic. (I think that Bruce Farr cringes when he sees me coming up the aisles at the grocery store.)

My comments are predominantly based on my own experiences and research. I see my comments as being simply my opinion, but I also see them as reasonably well informed comments based on comparasons of the boats I have known, either through sailing on or repairing, and the information gained by reading, lectures or discussions with design professionals.

Anyway, that is who I am.
 
#359 ·
And for the record since this does relate to the original topic, at least when I was associated with the boat building, a well engineered fin keel boat is actually quite a bit more expensive to build than a full keel. The requirement of a precision ballast casting, more sophisicated framing, the requirer higher strength keel bolts and backing plates all add to the cost of building a fin keel boat.

Inexpensive boats typically had longer keels with encapsulated non-cast ballast until coastal sailors came to expect more performance out of their boats.
 
#364 ·
And for the record since this does relate to the original topic, at least when I was associated with the boat building, a well engineered fin keel boat is actually quite a bit more expensive to build than a full keel. The requirement of a precision ballast casting, more sophisicated framing, the requirer higher strength keel bolts and backing plates all add to the cost of building a fin keel boat.

Inexpensive boats typically had longer keels with encapsulated non-cast ballast until coastal sailors came to expect more performance out of their boats.
You must not have been exposed to many full keel boats. The Westsails at least had 3 different lead castings that were also "precision cast"
The "more sophisticated framing" is a dubious one also as production boats are not custom built. I also note that in one post you said something to the effect of "encapsulated keels are harder to repair than fin keels". I don't think that's true as the fin keel would by nature create a lever effect in a hard grounding, requiring a complete removal, inspection, new bolts etc etc while the full keel would simply have the damage ground out, be allowed to dry and than patched and faired.

Once again it comes down to personal preference, not one design being "better" than the other.
 
#362 ·
To be fair, What appears to be Ben Bow (top) and Wild Duck (bottom) are purely William Atkins design, while Elf (middle) is often ascribed to John Atkins influence.
 
#366 · (Edited)
The top one was commisioned by the author E.B.White in 1936 and designed by William Atkin...the boat (original name Kathrinr S. } was never built and it was given the name Captain Cicero and later published in MoToR BoatinG magazine. Being a commision there are a few influences that differ from Akin's other boats. Building plans are still available from Pat Atkin's web page

The Ben Bow http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/BenBow.html is a much heavier displacement/fuller keel than the Captain Cicero Atkin & Co. - Captain Cicero.
 
#367 ·
Burton, you know better than that, the full keeled boats that I owned included a 1939 Stadel Cutter which I owned for 11 years, and a 1949 Folkboat which I restored. As you may recall I helped a fellow building a kit version of the Westsail 32 which had no precision cast ballast. Just concrete and scrap metal. You might want to go back and read the discussion on merits of a bolt on vs encapsulated keel. It is all about the trade-offs.
 
#368 ·
In the case of a wooden boat, I would think that a fin or a full keel would sustain more damage than a glass boat, but the fin keeled boat would always be more susceptible to damage than a full keeled boat. That is just basic physics.
As far as the Westsail 32 you helped build with concrete and scrap steel, 95% of these boats left the factory with the ballast installed (this is from the general manager of the factory at the time)
Unfortunately you have contributed to building a not so desirable Westsail 32 ..what a shame as the boat is potentially a great cruiser.
 
#373 ·
I hope that the posters here take to heart Jeff's message. Its hard to compare apples to apples in this kind of discussion but without it there is little relevance. You can't compare a heavily built boat purposely designed to get caught in a storm to a Catalina 27 and say that the Catalina is a lesser boat because it has a fin keel. That doesn't make any sense. Compare a Panda 40 to a Saga 43. Purpose built ocean cruising boats with different keels. I know which one I prefer.

As a previous owner of a full keeled boat designed and built in the 60's I can say that I would rather quit sailing altogether than bob around in that scow again. We put a man on he moon in the sixties but my boat might as well have been the mayflower. Albeit she was a thing of beauty.
 
#374 · (Edited)
....As a previous owner of a full keeled boat designed and built in the 60's I can say that I would rather quit sailing altogether than bob around in that scow again. We put a man on he moon in the sixties but my boat might as well have been the mayflower. Albeit she was a thing of beauty......



.....yeah, but I'll ask...what kind of sailing do you do now...vs.. back then?:p
I don't like marinas....and keep me boat on a hook...manouevering a full-keel in a marina situation would be a nightmare I'd rather skip...but the old narrow ones ride well at a mooring...and even better on the high seas...and I get me exercise rowing me dinghy out to her mooring..whoever (she) is over the last few years...A full keel gives me a good feeling if ever aground too..but if we all wanted full keels...or vice versda..world of sailing would be more boring place...
 
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