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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Over Powered in 30 knots?
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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-25-2012 10:15 PM
dalober
Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

I had a Ranger 26 that I sometimes sailed with the jib alone, but not in heavy winds. Easing the jib will reduce the lee helm somewhat and also keep the boat on its feet, but a reefed main with a fully let out traveller would have given you a balanced boat, much more control, and way less heeling.

And remember,good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from surviving bad judgement
04-25-2012 11:59 PM
BostonSailor
Over Powered in 30 knots?

Good stuff, Med - thx! Hadn't heard chicken gybe but have done a few . Sheeting in a letting out well-timed make a huge difference in controlling a jibe!
04-25-2012 11:16 PM
MedSailor
Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

I feel like I should clarify a couple of terms for all. After all, I did introduce the "wear ship" term into the fray.

I will use the original poster's clock analogy to provide the visual for the following definitions.

1. Tack
2. Gybe
3. Wear Ship
4. Chicken Gybe

1.Tack:
If we assume the wind is coming from 12:00 and you are sailing with the bow pointed at 2:00 you are close hauled on a port tack. If you were to swing the bow through the wind at 12:00 and end up closed hauled again with the bow now at 10:00 you have TACKED through the wind and you are now close hauled on a starboard tack.

2. Gybe:
We will continue to assume the wind is blowing from 12:00, only this time the bow is pointed at 4:00. You are on a run (or running before the wind) on a port tack. If you were to swing the bow through 6:00 (DDW or dead downwind) the main and jib would flop over with some force to the other side of the boat. If you continued to swing the bow around to be pointing at 8:00 you have now GYBED and are now on a run on a starboard tack.

3. Wear Ship:
This is another way to tack, where the goal is to get the bow from 2:00 to 10:00 as in example 1. Wind is still coming from 12:00. Assuming you are closed hauled with the bow pointing at 2:00 you are again close haled on a port tack. Your boat doesn't like to go through the wind so instead of turning the bow towards the wind, you turn it away from the wind. Your bow quickly swings through 3,4,5,6 (sails gybe here),& 7,8,9 o'clock and you end up at 10:00, close hauled on a starboard tack. You have just Worn Ship, and gybed around to your new tack.

4. Chicken Gybe:
This is a favorite way to avoid gybing in heavy winds where the force of the boom coming across the boat may do damage. Perhaps the wind is blowing hard (still from the 12:00 direction) and you are too short handed to have someone quickly sheet in, and quickly release the main-sheet for a regular gybe. As in example 2 you are on a port run with the bow facing 4:00. You want to get the bow to face 8:00 but you fear damage if you gybe. You turn the bow into the wind and the bow goes through 3, 2, 1, 12, 11, 10, 9 and you end up with the bow facing 8:00 on a starboard run. You have now completed a Chicken Gybe, as you tacked around through the wind to reach your new downwind course.

I hope that is helpful.

MedSailor
04-25-2012 07:28 PM
dinodino
Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harborless View Post
If you have the money, that place is sweet. Very Spanish Riviera feeling.
That's a stunning yacht club. I looked at a boat that was for sale there, and the owner would sponsor me for membership and a slip if I bought it. The club still had to approve me as I recall, and I think the membership fee was $15k and it was another $1k or so per month for the slip. I went with another boat, but I sure was impressed with EFYC!
04-25-2012 12:20 PM
Barquito
Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
I''m not sure if this has been mentioned but if you must sail upwind under jib alone you can usually tack if you foot off just a shy higher than a beam reach, then as you turn the boat into the wind let the jib go and your momentum should carry you through the tack. By pulling the jib tight as you get closer to the wind you are actually worsening your balance by causing more pressure on the jib making it harder to complete the tack.
My understanding is that you have the best chance of getting through a rough tack if you "sail" the jib all the way through. Fall off a little to build speed, then trim in as you head up to close hauled. As you come through let it backwind just a hair, to push the bow onto the other tack.

I think a lot of these pointers in this thread depend a lot on the boat you are on. Some boats sail up wind on jib alone, and some on main alone.

One more point: if you get get knocked to a dead stop head to wind, you could let the boat drift back while steering onto the new tack backwards, sheet in and go.
04-25-2012 12:03 PM
peterchech
Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Now that you've discussed the sailing pretty much in detail, please discuss docking and undocking without damaging the boat in these conditions. Don't spare details... this is a skill that I really want to learn (high wind docking and undocking, especially with crosswind).
Keep up speed so the keel and rudder bite.

Don't be afraid to hit stuff. You will
04-25-2012 11:46 AM
Merit25lovers
Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tommays View Post
When i am out by myself it does depend on the boat BUT the Cal 29 needs a BIT of both sails to function well VS the J24 which does pretty good on Mainsail alone
I agree! My Merit 25 doesn't do well at all in high winds with just the jib up, but does "OK" on the Mainsail alone
04-25-2012 11:44 AM
Harborless
Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by svHyLyte View Post
The center of pressure of the "standard jib" is far forward of the center of lateral resistance (keel, rudder et al) hence the yacht wants to turn down wind. To resist this you had the rudder hard over, likely well more than 45º hence you're attempting to drag a big rectalinear plate through the water. With all the drag of the rudder, wind on the mast and rigging et al you're going nowhere (but sideways) fast. And that comes as a surprise to you?

A large overlapping jib with the sheet-lead well aft so that the top 3rd of the leach rolls off to leeward will move the center of pressure aft and allow some yachts to make way to weather but it's had to manage the sail. It's tough on the boat and the sail and won't leave you with a lot of options if things get sideways. Moreover with wind and sea against you, tacking becomes an exercise in frustration if not futility. A Chicken Gybe will allow you to "tack" but a 300º turn will cost a lot of distance, particularly from 90º to 270º so what's the point when a deeply reefed main avoids (nearly) all of the issues?

FWIW...
A well deserved evaluation. Every trip out is a learning experience, I learned a lot from the other day and from the replies on this board. Thanks all!
04-25-2012 11:39 AM
Harborless
Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailguy40 View Post
NCC320, sounds like the best advice yet. I could be just as crazy since I am going out in 25knots with a 22ft boat. Exactly why I lost a rudder so far but I needed to experience it at least a couple times in case im ever caught out for some reason. At least I can say been there. I sometimes worry I have out grown my boat since I have pushed it to its limits more then once. At the same time, since I have learned so much more, lately I have only been out in under 15 knot winds. Good thing is its like that around here 80% of the time. In the end its just not worth it going out in that running the risk of breaking things not to mention hull stress. I could not imagine the nightmare of losing a mast.
My port side chain plate broke lose on the same northward tack I was talking about in this posts, just a few weeks back. I had taken out and inspected the starboard chain plate and it looked new so I neglected to check starboard.. Big mistake. If I had not recently resheathed my mast and replaced all the standing rigging the mast would have definitely went down. As it was I had to throw the boat to the opposite tack to take the weight off the port side. Once I was on that tack and the mast had not fallen down I went up and used the jib line to tie through the eye of the two turnbuckles, then I winched the jib line under the toerail as tight as I could get it. Ended up giving the mast a lot of support but by the time I made it back to dock my Jib line was practically chaffed through. I shudder to think what would have happened if it had...
Morale of the story is don't assume-- And ffs make sure your standing rigging is up to par. I had 3 ppl out that day and when it broke they were panic stricken. I couldnt let them know I was quivering with fear myself--- You look up 36 feet and see your mast swinging about it doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good.
Also, when things go bad and your 24 some ppl just assumes your an irresponsible idiot with no clue.
04-25-2012 11:33 AM
Harborless
Re: Over Powered in 30 knots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NCC320 View Post
Going out in 30kts., gusting to 40kts. in a 26 ft. boat in choppy water.....really? You guys are tough. I have yet to see anyone intentionally go out in such conditions in this area. (And why would you want to anyway....you're just going to beat up the boat and yourself?) Now that you've discussed the sailing pretty much in detail, please discuss docking and undocking without damaging the boat in these conditions. Don't spare details... this is a skill that I really want to learn (high wind docking and undocking, especially with crosswind).
Sure, ill give you the skinny.
Well we were about a half mile north of Epping forest yacht club trying to head in a northerly direction when I got tired of being hit broadside after every failed tack. So I guess I did a "chicken gybe?" since I just whipped the boat from 2 o'clock down to 5:30.
So now we are running with the wind again and looking for a [place to dock. Problem is the docks jutting out from the riverbank are being pounded by waves and offer no protection. Then I spot Epping forest-- Its a small marina with a sea wall all the way around except for the entrance at 9 o'clock (really neat). Well, the wind and current actually helped now because I was going in the same direction. (I chose this place to dock bc my sister had work and because it was on the same course as I, including wind and current-and I knew my step dad could pick us up quickly!.)
Anyway, I sail to about 50 yards of the marina entrance then I bring down the jib and start floating in with wind and current. Didn't have enough momentum to make the entrance at 9 o'clock-- started shifting sideways, would have been pushed sideways along the outer seawall and banged to death.. So I cranked up my unreliable engine. 8 HP barely moved me through the chop-- For a minute I thought I had ran aground but I knew the swells were lifting me way to high for that to be the case... 8 HP is just to small an engine imo.
Anway, Engine cranks and I start sliding towards the entrance. I veer out to the outer wall and like a long U come right in the Marina which calms down immediately. Took my first right and Throw the boat in neutral and floated about 40-50 ft to an empty slip. Still moving 1-2 knots when I approach slip (told sister to throw over fenders to starboard side already) so I just kick the engine in reverse and I come to a stop with a slight bump on the bow. Kill the engine, tell the sister to grab the bow line I grab the stern line and now we just invaded a multimillion dollar yacht club surrounded by mansions!
Then I mosey on up to the Harbor master, hes in his late 60's, captain something, tell him of my adventure and then relish the look given to a 24 yr old who shinnied his boat under jib into his marina when not one other boat was out on the St. Johns besides a 40+ power yacht.
Now, this sounds like a gloating posts and some of it is. You did not ask me to mention all of my mistakes, because they were made.
(If ever you throw out a stern anchor, remember dummy, you have winches all around you! Use the winch to help get the anchor up otherwise your hands will be raw.)


***Want to add- The epping forest yacht club harbormaster and staff are very freindly people. They were very understanding and when I offered to pay them for slip usage they steadfastly denied. They were just glad my sister and I had found somewhere safe to stop. So, just wanted to give them some love. Also, beautiful place. If you have the money, that place is sweet. Very Spanish Riviera feeling.
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