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Beastly boat to manuever

5K views 21 replies 14 participants last post by  nolatom 
#1 ·
I'm having a terrible time manuevering my full-keel offset prop H-28. She sails beautifully - but when going slow- under power or sail- she's a beast!

I went out for a sail today in Fisher's Island sound- wind was out of the west - I had difficulty getting back on my mooring under sail- so I turned on the engine- then handling got really difficult. Wont turn!

When I first launched her I had her put in a slip to rig the sails- trying to back out of the slip and head down the lane to get out to the mooring was a horror show- even with the help of a very experienced sailor.

Any one have experience or advice to share?


Anyone want to come teach me how to handle her?:eek:

Amy
 
#2 · (Edited)
I drive an 80 foot tug pushing a 300 foot barge at work. After that, any boat smaller get's real EZ. Try getting some helm time on larger vessels and go back to it. doubt it's the boat that's being sluggish. You are probably not used to how she handles. You will be surprised if you can drive around a bigger boat and go back to it how EZ it will be. Same with cars. You ever drive around a big pick up and then hop in a civic or something?
 
#3 ·
Amy,

Full keels are notorious for large turning radiuses. There isn't much that can be done to correct this, except for time spent driving.

However there are a few things to keep in mind.

1) full keels are prone to stalling the rudder. This is particularly true at low speeds. In open water, say near a deep water mark, practice turning at slow speeds. As soon as the rudder stalls though the turning radios will suffer, so move the rudder back to midship and see how far over you can go before she stalls.

2) low speed under power typically is going to force you to deal with prop walk. Until there is enough water flowing under the hull for the keel to bite, the prop actually pushes the boat to the side, almost as much as it pushes it forward or back. Learning to use this to your advantage is important, but very tricky. Assuming you have a fixed prop this is particularly problematic in reverse.

Take it slow, and practice in open water. Back when I first started driving, my dad took me out and had me do approaches to a fender. Bow to, stern to, both sides to, and then turning drills, trying to turn the boat in its own leingth using nothing but the prop walk.

It can be done, but takes practice, and a lot of time driving.
 
#4 ·
I'm having a terrible time manuevering my full-keel offset prop H-28. She sails beautifully - but when going slow- under power or sail- she's a beast!

I went out for a sail today in Fisher's Island sound- wind was out of the west - I had difficulty getting back on my mooring under sail- so I turned on the engine- then handling got really difficult. Wont turn!

When I first launched her I had her put in a slip to rig the sails- trying to back out of the slip and head down the lane to get out to the mooring was a horror show- even with the help of a very experienced sailor.

Any one have experience or advice to share?

Anyone want to come teach me how to handle her?:eek:

Amy
Amy, unfortunately I'm a little too far away, but I'm sure there are plenty of people closer who could help. :)

It's a matter of getting to know your boat and that might take some time. At slow (manoevering) speeds you'll find the rudder is merely a suggestion of where you want to go - not the actual direction-control device you might think it is - but with a combination of rudder, engine revs, speed and a rope or two to pull you in the right direction, you should be okay under light conditions.

First off, prop-walk. You'll need it to get in and out of a slip. It's a matter of putting the engine in gear, at idle, and watching which way the stern goes in forward and reverse. Remember that and increase/decrease revs to turn the boat as you back out. With an offset prop, you'll probably find she goes astern better one way than the other - work with it.

Second, sails. Backing the headsail will help you turn the boat in anything more than light winds. Do that to help steer the boat. Sail balance is critical.

Third, turning circle. Your boat isn't as maneuverable as many others so make sure you have plenty of room to turn. Don't try to cut corners - it doesn't work. If you're coming into a dock, shift into neutral early and steer in using just the forward momentum of the boat. Use the engine only at the last moment, remembering which way the stern will go when you do.

These are all techniques the old salts needed that aren't required so much on "modern" boats that turn on a dime, but once you get a handle on it hopefully you'll enjoy the challenge of "real" seapersonship!
 
#5 ·
Great advice from the above.

My 'apprenticeship' on a lugger, first yacht, a 'clansman' - long keel, now a peterson - longish keel. So I fully concur with above. In reverse, an engine is just a brake - rudder is useless.

Use prop walk, of which you must have in abundance with the offset. Do you have a 3blade or a 2 blade? = 3 blade is better but a bit more drag and not worth the expence to change.

Practice and practice and then, realise that every time you enter into the slip, it is different to the last.

Welcome to the club- I put fenders out both sides and enter the slip --> very slow.
 
#10 ·
Use prop walk, of which you must have in abundance with the offset. Do you have a 3blade or a 2 blade? = 3 blade is better but a bit more drag and not worth the expence to change.
If you already have the boat pulled for something, you can likely buy a used three bladed fixed prop for nothing, or very close to nothing. Heck I will sell you my old 12" for shipping costs.

Most used boat yards have piles of them, collect a few tons of the bronze, then take it to a recycling yard in quantity. So selling it as a prop is just bonus. I would walk from anything more than $20 though.
 
#6 ·
Thanks All! Looks like I'll be out in the harbor on low wind days - going in circles backwards! -

I appreciate the advice - Capt Aaron- after watching me try to get the sailboat out of the slip - I don't think any of the big power boat owners in the marina are going to offer me time at the helm!! :rolleyes:

I'll just practice practice practice! Thanks

Amy
 
#7 ·
Thanks All! Looks like I'll be out in the harbor on low wind days - going in circles backwards! -

I appreciate the advice - Capt Aaron- after watching me try to get the sailboat out of the slip - I don't think any of the big power boat owners in the marina are going to offer me time at the helm!! :rolleyes:

I'll just practice practice practice! Thanks

Amy
Practice will make perfect for sure. But don't be afraid to ask someone. You may be surprised. The guy with the big boat that is good at driveing it will probably enjoy showing you what he know's. My family has a 40 foot single screw dive boat wih a lot of windage. after driving that around I found whipping little sailboats around was a lot easier. When I get off the tug, the dive boat is real easy to whip around. What ever you do, it's the repitition that will be key. You'll get it.;)
 
#8 ·
You mean a good old H-28 with a stern-hung rudder, like this?:

Google Image Result for http://h28oldsite.blogsite.org/images/ketch2.jpg

So with an offset prob, you'll get effective rudder-based steering with a "kick ahead" on the throttle on only one side, the side the prop's on, right?

So you do have more maneuvering problems in reverse (or in forward when you have little hull speed and rudder flow) than the 'average bear', no?

I think you're right--practice, practice. And if there's a direction she "just won't swing" in close quarters or crosswind and where dock lines are near, use one of them, and a fendered piling of dock corner if you have one, as a spring line to induce swing.
 
#11 ·
Because of prop walk, and the offset prop position, you will be able to turn sharper in one direction than the other. Plan for this on the approach. This is something you can check out while doing circles in forward and reverse. Just remember to do as many circles in one direction as the other, or you will get dizzy.:D
 
#13 ·
Good advice on "prop walk". Add to that you need to learn to only expect the rudder to turn the boat when there's water moving across it. On your approach use it one last time before there's no flow across it. As stated above, don't rely on rudder in the astern direction if possible....mostly ineffective. Add to that, your use of engine needs to be in short but strong bursts. Sometimes a skipper will think it needs to be slow and gentle when a quick short burst will have the desired effect.
 
#16 ·
We sailed an H-28 with an offset 2-bladed prop for many years. Propwalk has already been mentioned, along with planning ahead so as to turn the "best" way whenever possible. You may also be affected by stuff growing on the propeller. This will make the propwalk worse and since the propeller is not pushing the boat very well you go slower and therefore the steering is worse too. Take a swim & make sure the prop is clean. Have fun! We're lucky to have two H-28 bowsprit-rigged ketches in our harbor. They're beautiful boats.
 
#17 ·
If your problem is backing, then join the club - backing up is often a bear with longer keels. Some tricks which may help - build up a bit of backwards speed before you start the turn; and if you have propwalk/offset prop, you may want to try building up some momentum and then popping the engine into neutral before you turn. For me if I have the prop engaged moving at a "slow walking speed" the best I can do in one direction is go straight - I can never turn!

..which is why I tend to walk my boat out of the slip (backwards), not power her out....

...but on the good side, if you can master things your propwalk sometimes allows you to back into a slip, turning in at an outrageous angle!
 
#18 ·
Are you in Mystic?

There are a couple of unused private mooring balls on the outside of the mooring field off Abbots...
I'm on a mooring so I get little docking practice. If I'm bored and there is no wind I sometimes head out and use one of these empty moorings as a target for backing, stopping, etc.
Start at slack tide, then as the current builds you can see how it effects your boat.
 
#19 ·
Rob - I'm moored right around the point in Noank - at Spicers. I did what you suggested- I went out on a quiet day and tried backing around the towboat mooring- people probably thought I was crazy - out there motoring around in circles backwards. I guess it's just going to take lots of practice. It would just be nice to go up to a dock to fill up with fuel and water - rather than having to lug it all out there in the dingy.

Thanks everyone for all your advice! What I wouldn't give to buy a few years of experience!:)

Paul K - thanks -where are you? I'd love to talk to some other H-28 owners.

amy
 
#20 ·
It would just be nice to go up to a dock to fill up with fuel and water - rather than having to lug it all out there in the dingy.

amy
The moorings on the other side of the point are calmer, there is fuel/water/ice available from the fuel docks.

I'm on a town mooring G26 ENE of Abbots... White C&C 30, swing by and say hi if you are over there or PM me if you ever want to daysail or even practice manuvering :) during the week. My girlfriend and I are out there most Wed/Thurs unless the weather is really crap.
 
#21 ·
I'm having a terrible time manuevering my full-keel offset prop H-28. She sails beautifully - but when going slow- under power or sail- she's a beast!

I went out for a sail today in Fisher's Island sound- wind was out of the west - I had difficulty getting back on my mooring under sail- so I turned on the engine- then handling got really difficult. Wont turn!

When I first launched her I had her put in a slip to rig the sails- trying to back out of the slip and head down the lane to get out to the mooring was a horror show- even with the help of a very experienced sailor.

Any one have experience or advice to share?


Anyone want to come teach me how to handle her?:eek:

Amy
I'm having a terrible time manuevering my full-keel offset prop H-28. She sails beautifully - but when going slow- under power or sail- she's a beast!

I went out for a sail today in Fisher's Island sound- wind was out of the west - I had difficulty getting back on my mooring under sail- so I turned on the engine- then handling got really difficult. Wont turn!

When I first launched her I had her put in a slip to rig the sails- trying to back out of the slip and head down the lane to get out to the mooring was a horror show- even with the help of a very experienced sailor.

Any one have experience or advice to share?


Anyone want to come teach me how to handle her?:eek:

Amy
Hi Amy, Are you still here? Do you still have your H28? I have on elf my own and have lots of questions. And maybe a few answers. lol
 
#22 ·
Well you may have already read this, but in the "WoodenBoat" forum, it's discussed at some length. Take a look at the ninth post, by "SchoonerRat", for some insight:


I like the (old, mostly) aperture-type shaft, because it gives you some lateral force since the prop wash flows along wherever you've put your rudder, and you can "kick" the stern sideways to either port or starboard with that wash effect, even (and especially) when you're stopped, or almost stopped. Very useful at the fuel dock.

Not sure I've ever done it with an offset prop. But the modern big beamy fiberglass boats that have two rudders, one port side, one starboard side, and midship prop, don't do well if you come angled in bow-first, almost stopped, and want to get your stern "in", you can't, since the rudders are receiving no prop wash whatever. They do, however steer your stern very smartly when moving "backwards", so you purposely overshoot your spot a little and then back her in. There's an article somewhere called "docking with twin rudders", worth a look for general interest but won't help you with that lovely H-28.
 
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