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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Registration Numbers on the Hull?
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Thread: Registration Numbers on the Hull? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-04-2012 10:29 PM
hellosailor
Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Misread what you please, RhythmDoctor. Compare apples and oranges, ignore the larger context, but there's no contradiction between what I said and the statute. Apples and oranges, and since the DMV engaged in written correspondence with me and confirmed what I said, within the context I said it, I'll believe them not you.

You're right that free advice on the internet is of unproven value. You're wrong to presume you, another anonymous dog on the internet (as the old line in the New Yorker goes) know better than the NYS DMV itself.
07-03-2012 11:14 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RhythmDoctor View Post
OK, I'll bite too.

I think the ultimate test of a jurist's ethics is when he confronts a case where his interpretation of the Constitution, statues, and or case law causes him to issue a ruling that conflicts with his own personal ideology. IMO, this is the exact opposite of what an "activist judge" would have done. I would be saying (and have said, in the past) the same thing about liberal judges issuing rulings that supported conservative positions. I am proud to see that we have a Chief Justice who rises above political partisanship in upholding his strict interpretation of the Constitution.
Actually, I couldn't agree more, it's a pity more seem unable to look at the matter so objectively...

"Activist judge" is not my interpretation, btw, but it sure is being tossed around a lot by those who feel otherwise "betrayed"...

Available for a mere $30, from Glenn Beck's online store:

07-03-2012 10:36 PM
TakeFive
Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
...Damn, who'd a thunk a Bush-appointed Chief Justice would turn out to be one of them "activist judges", huh?

At any rate, I'll bet there will be some very Nervous Nellies around here, should the Roberts court ever hear a landmark case regarding the Second Amendment, no? (grin)
OK, I'll bite too.

I think the ultimate test of a jurist's ethics is when he confronts a case where his interpretation of the Constitution, statues, and or case law causes him to issue a ruling that conflicts with his own personal ideology. IMO, this is the exact opposite of what an "activist judge" would have done. I would be saying (and have said, in the past) the same thing about liberal judges issuing rulings that supported conservative positions. I am proud to see that we have a Chief Justice who rises above political partisanship in upholding his strict interpretation of the Constitution.
07-03-2012 10:23 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Ossining. Home of SingSing Correctional Facility, or whatever they call it these days. I wouldn't have thought they had any jurisdiction on the Haverstraw (other) side of the Hudson.
Well, I'm guessing since Haverstraw Bay spans the entire width of the Hudson in that vicinity, they probably had a legitimate jurisdiction there...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Whatever happened to "probable cause" ? I say, if they can't quote the Bill of Rights, they can't be Peace Officers. And they get one try to get it right, no retakes on that exam.
Frankly, I wasn't in the mood for any Constitutional histrionics that day... I'd departed Manasquan at 0530 in thick fog, no working radar, and was facing a LONG night ahead of me... It soon became apparent that this boarding, like so many others I've been subjected to in the past, was largely being conducted as a "training exercise", I've BTDT many times before... But, given the fact that i was already WAY behind schedule on this trip, and was perhaps not technically in possession of some of the documentation I should have been, I played nice, and in a manner conducive to allowing me to get back on the road again as quickly as possible... My bad, I know, others will suffer in the future for my failure to assert my "rights"... (grin)

But, as Tempest surmises, I believe once these guys realized I had obviously not stolen this boat, they did extend me a fair degree of "professional courtesy"... They were polite and professional throughout, sincerely apologetic for the delay, and as far as I'm concerned, the whole thing wasn't really that big a deal in the end... I've seen FAR worse incompetence from Homeland Security, trust me...

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
I'm really wondering if President Roberts [sic] clever little rewrite of the Constitution last Friday isn't going to put Obama out of office this fall...
OK, I'll bite...

Damn, who'd a thunk a Bush-appointed Chief Justice would turn out to be one of them "activist judges", huh?

At any rate, I'll bet there will be some very Nervous Nellies around here, should the Roberts court ever hear a landmark case regarding the Second Amendment, no? (grin)
07-03-2012 10:19 PM
Tempest
Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
"The NJ law was passed about 7 years ago, and was phased in up to june 2009"
And didn't get much publicity until it was phased in. So, I said two? years and it was three. Talking about USCG licenses is meaningless to civilians, i.e. the general population of recreational boaters won't have them. The point you seem to have missed, is that when NJ publicized the new law going into effect, either they omitted mention of the NASBLA courses, or they didn't accept them. If they don't mention accepting them--that's the same either way.

I don't say registering a boat, or car, is onerous. I do say that there's a fourth amendment, which was specifically written so that treasonous rebels traveling on the King's Highway could be secure against random searches. That still applies. "SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS" should be lumped in with "high crimes and misdemeanors", whether it is on land or sea. No numbers on the bow? Sorry, that's not reasonable suspicion of anything.

Giving up your freedoms isn't onerous at all. It is real easy. Kinda like Esau, giving up his inheritence for lunch.

"Not on my watch."

The laws and regulations are not hard to find at all. I found 5 state requirements: Pennsylvania , NY, Delaware, Ohio, and Maryland in a few minutes. Personally, It doesn't much matter to me what anyone chooses to do or not do..with regard to the regs. But in the interest of disseminating correct information to those who ask about what is required of them in order to be in compliance, I try to be accurate. What people do from there is their own business. New Jersey's is equally well posted on the State Police Website. Boat Ed, lists the regs and links to every state.

With regard to Jon's search, I don't think that was random..he did, in fact, have a lot of 'splaining to do.
07-03-2012 09:56 PM
TakeFive
Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

I think we should remind readers that free advice offered on an Internet message board is worth no more than what you pay for it, and often less. Please don't rely on any advice offered here without consulting with your own local authorities and/or legal counsel.

For example, taking this NY regulation:

Quote:
§ 2252. Exemption from registration...
...(b) Vessels displaying a valid identification or registration number
issued by another state under a numbering system which has been approved
in accordance with the provisions of federal law, provided such vessel
shall not have been within this state for a period in excess of ninety
consecutive days.
and suggesting this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
...NYS law says a vessel does not need NYS registration AT ALL unless it has been in the navigable waters of NYS for more than 90 days. Have it hauled overnight once every 89 days and you can keep it here forever, without registering the boat...
...is a perfect example of the kind of Internet BS that should be dismissed as laughable bloviation.
07-03-2012 09:26 PM
hellosailor
Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

"The NJ law was passed about 7 years ago, and was phased in up to june 2009"
And didn't get much publicity until it was phased in. So, I said two? years and it was three. Talking about USCG licenses is meaningless to civilians, i.e. the general population of recreational boaters won't have them. The point you seem to have missed, is that when NJ publicized the new law going into effect, either they omitted mention of the NASBLA courses, or they didn't accept them. If they don't mention accepting them--that's the same either way.

I don't say registering a boat, or car, is onerous. I do say that there's a fourth amendment, which was specifically written so that treasonous rebels traveling on the King's Highway could be secure against random searches. That still applies. "SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS" should be lumped in with "high crimes and misdemeanors", whether it is on land or sea. No numbers on the bow? Sorry, that's not reasonable suspicion of anything.

Giving up your freedoms isn't onerous at all. It is real easy. Kinda like Esau, giving up his inheritence for lunch.

"Not on my watch."
07-03-2012 08:57 PM
smurphny
Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

My 40+ year-old boat has always been documented with it's hailing port in NY. As far as I know, it had never been registered at all until I registered it just so as to not get hassled down in FL by the marine gestapo. NY LE has never hassled documented boats with no state reg. although the law is on the books. It's all really about customary enforcement.
07-03-2012 07:57 PM
Tempest
Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Tempest, in NYS, a pretty color brochure like the one from the parks department has no legal standing. The *only* laws are those put forth in the written statutes. If you go to court with the pretty book, the judge is under no obligation to look at it. What he is obliged to look at, is a properly certified copy of the DMV handbook, or other copy of the actual statutues.

Your DMV web page also has no legal standing, it is NOT the same as the statutes. You may also notice that it says:
"What if my boat is documented by the US Coast Guard?
You must register the boat in NYS if:
...the boat will be used on public waterways in NYS for 90 or more consecutive days."

See? Yes, the boat must be registered, but it must be registered according to the full statutes, which also happen to say it does NOT need to be registered unless it is in the waters for 90+ days. That may not seem right--but if you read the statutes, that's what they say. And ONLY the full statutes have legal standing. In this case, the NYS VTL, Vehicle and Traffic Law.



Our DMV and Tax Department even have conflicting web pages posted regarding who and how sales/use tax is applied to "vehicles" brought in from out of state. But the web pages don't matter, even if they misinform the public. Only the actual code matters.

And yes, I've corresponded with the DMV on this specific point. They said if the boat wasn't "on the waters" of NY for 90 days? No registration required.

Chuck?
Definitely not a problem. If you are legal in your home state, you are legal in NY state. However, if you are here more than 90? 180? days you will have to re-register the boat here, the same way that you would in almost every state. So make sure you spend a night OUT of NY after 89 days.

OTOH be careful about NJ. NJ passed a new law 2? years ago, requiring the operators of ALL motor vessels to either have a NJ operators certificate, or one from their home state. If your home state doesn't have or offer one...in theory you'd need to get a NJ certificate or stay out of Jersey waters. Some dumbie forgot to include "national" certificates (i.e. online boating courses) in their statute, although I strongly hope the NJ watercops would honor those anyway.
I'm pretty damned sure the NJ law violates federal laws for vessels in transit but have no desire to be the poster boy for that case.


This Statute? Article 48 - Vehicle and Traffic Law - Registration of Vessels



The NJ law was passed about 7 years ago, and was phased in up to june 2009

If you have a CG license, you are exempt, If you take an similar course issued by your home state and present the certificate you're covered. If you take a Power Squadron course, or Coast Guard Auxillary course you're covered...If you take an online course that is similar ( meaning Nasbla approved, or Nasbla modeled) and present a completion certificate you're covered.

I really don't see the onerous nature of taking a boating safety class.
Or operating a properly Registered or documented vessel.

Also, there's a difference between a Statute and a Regulation. If you note the Statute, I've posted above the last line says something like the commissioner may establish " regulations'
07-03-2012 06:57 PM
hellosailor
Re: Registration Numbers on the Hull?

Tempest, in NYS, a pretty color brochure like the one from the parks department has no legal standing. The *only* laws are those put forth in the written statutes. If you go to court with the pretty book, the judge is under no obligation to look at it. What he is obliged to look at, is a properly certified copy of the DMV handbook, or other copy of the actual statutues.

Your DMV web page also has no legal standing, it is NOT the same as the statutes. You may also notice that it says:
"What if my boat is documented by the US Coast Guard?
You must register the boat in NYS if:
...the boat will be used on public waterways in NYS for 90 or more consecutive days."

See? Yes, the boat must be registered, but it must be registered according to the full statutes, which also happen to say it does NOT need to be registered unless it is in the waters for 90+ days. That may not seem right--but if you read the statutes, that's what they say. And ONLY the full statutes have legal standing. In this case, the NYS VTL, Vehicle and Traffic Law.

Our DMV and Tax Department even have conflicting web pages posted regarding who and how sales/use tax is applied to "vehicles" brought in from out of state. But the web pages don't matter, even if they misinform the public. Only the actual code matters.

And yes, I've corresponded with the DMV on this specific point. They said if the boat wasn't "on the waters" of NY for 90 days? No registration required.

Chuck?
Definitely not a problem. If you are legal in your home state, you are legal in NY state. However, if you are here more than 90? 180? days you will have to re-register the boat here, the same way that you would in almost every state. So make sure you spend a night OUT of NY after 89 days.

OTOH be careful about NJ. NJ passed a new law 2? years ago, requiring the operators of ALL motor vessels to either have a NJ operators certificate, or one from their home state. If your home state doesn't have or offer one...in theory you'd need to get a NJ certificate or stay out of Jersey waters. Some dumbie forgot to include "national" certificates (i.e. online boating courses) in their statute, although I strongly hope the NJ watercops would honor those anyway.
I'm pretty damned sure the NJ law violates federal laws for vessels in transit but have no desire to be the poster boy for that case.
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