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Refurbish or scrap?

6K views 30 replies 14 participants last post by  Brigala 
#1 ·
I'm interested in knowing how some of you veterans decide when it's time to scrap a boat and when it's worth fixing up. What tips the scales for you?

We just bought a "project" Newport 27 on a really nice trailer. We pretty much bought it for the trailer, figuring we could scrap the boat if it was in bad enough shape, and at least we'd know the trailer would work for the boat we want - we can go buy one in better shape for more money if we have a way to tow it home.

The boat and trailer together were $1600 (not including the outboard motor, which we purchased separately from the boat owner). We figured the trailer's worth $1,000 at least (probably more, now that we've seen it; it's really nice) and the lead in the keel probably has at least $600 scrap value so we didn't waste a lot of time going over the boat. There were a lot of other interested parties and we didn't want to miss out on that trailer. We need a different hitch on the truck to tow it home so we haven't brought it home yet, but the boat is now ours.

The boat was purchased as a fixer by the seller's husband and put under cover, but then the husband died and she was left with this boat. It was later taken out from under cover, unfortunately, and the cabin was ankle deep in water. It doesn't look like it's been that way long; no obvious signs of rot or anything. It looks very dirty and smells a bit musty. Most of the cushions were stored indoors (ranging in condition from poor to fair but at least not nasty or unusable) along with the sails and rigging. There's a leak around the mast, the hatch is broken, and something else (I forget what) which has been letting in water. I expect all the electrical stuff is shot, which is fine since my husband is an electrician with marine experience and wants to re-wire any used boat he would buy to make sure it's safe. There's no head, and no cooking facility of any kind. The inboard motor is long gone. On the plus side, the deck and the hull appear sound and the basic structure in the cabin also appears sound.

The Newport 27 was on our short list of boats we wanted anyway, so there is that. If we scrap out the boat it will probably be to go get another one just like it to put on the trailer. If we fix it up, we'll have the boat we want. At what point does it make more sense to just take what we have (basically a hull and sails) and turn it into exactly what we're looking for, vs. going out and buying something that's a little closer to our end goal?

I'm not even sure exactly what I'm asking... just looking for some general advice from people who've been there.
 
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#2 ·
Brigala, the only way to figure it is with a pencil and paper. Tear into the boat, see what is rotted, what has to be replaced, how much material and labor is needed. Put a price of at least $10/hour on your own labor. More if you can earn it with OT on your job.

Now add it up. The boat is worth $600 as scrap? less, what, $200 as a dumping fee at your landfill? So it might be worth $400 to scrap it. $5000 might replace it. (Maybe less, I don't know) The question is, if you put $4000 into it, will you have a boat comparable to what you can buy for that money? I'd say if the price of fixing (which will always go higher than you expect) is even close to 75% of the price of replacing, scrap it and replace it. A lot depends on how you value your labor, and how sure you are that you won't be surprised along the way.
 
#4 ·
Thank you! That helps a lot. It is not far off what I was thinking.

The place I called said $0.35-$0.60 / lb scrap value on lead, depending on the purity. Maybe I should call around some more.
 
#5 ·
scrap lead is selling anywhere from $.40- $.70 per lb.
Right now, you're about break-even.

I'm not a big fan of adopting an abandoned project. You often spend more time redoing badly done, abandoned or half-finished work than before proceeding further...so you're starting behind the starting line so to speak. An untouched derelict is often a better proposition.

Having said that, you've already got this boat. So, here's what I would do to test whether it is worth the time and effort to save it or scrap it. Take a screwdriver and start poking at the stringers and frames in the bilge and at the bottom of the bulkheads. Poke around the mast step. If you find more than three soft spots, stop, get up, walk away.
An O/B powered Newport 27 is a $5K boat in the real world today. If you need to rebuild the mast step, tab in new bukheads and remove and replace stringers, before you even get to wiring and cosmetics and the hull and rig, you won't be sailing for a while and you'll quickly be upside down in materials.
 
#6 ·
I don't see any sign that the boat's had any work done at all. Part of what's attractive about it to me is that we can do the work from the ground up and know exactly what we're getting into. We could spend $3500 instead on a "light project" or $5,000 on a "ready to sail" only to find the same problems later and not have enough money to fix them.

That said; I think you're right. If there are multiple soft spots or any other significant structural issues, we'd be ahead to scrap it. There may be a few parts worth salvaging, and if we can get $0.40/lb for the keel that's $1,000 right there.
 
#8 · (Edited)
The Newport 27 was on our short list of boats we wanted anyway, so there is that. If we scrap out the boat it will probably be to go get another one just like it to put on the trailer. If we fix it up, we'll have the boat we want. At what point does it make more sense to just take what we have (basically a hull and sails) and turn it into exactly what we're looking for, vs. going out and buying something that's a little closer to our end goal?


Check your dump fees as here it's 5 cents a pound for old boat

The lead has to be clean (I scrap a lot :) )

The tipping point on my Cal 29 was that despite the boat being screwed in everyway Possable and someways one would not think Possable :)


The boat had a bunch of new stuff
1.hood stoboom/mainsail system
2.profurl R250 with 100 jib new and 150 50% used
3.170 drifter new
4.lewmar ST30 winches

If was not for the above the boat would be glass dust and it was a huge factor as all the east coast 29s had crap sails
 
#9 ·
If you want to go sailing right away then scrap it for what you can and invest is a better boat. I have just finished bringing an old boat back to life. The trailer and motor where worth pretty much what we paid for the boat.

Points to consider: It will likely cost twice as much as you budget. It will likely take twice as long to finish the project. If you can't do the work yourself on the boat ( ie not the motor ) then the costs will go up immensely. The time you put into restoring it is FREE ie don't count on getting paid back when its time to resell. Our project was a 22 foot swing keel. The hull and cabin were ok structurally. Everything else was pretty much toast except the quarter berths.

Now we did change ALL lighting both nav and cabin over to LED'S and replace all the electronics and electrical. Also installed a new MSD with seaside pump out and added a 20 gallon water tank. Most of the standing rigging was re-used although we did have to buy new turnbuckles and clevis pins etc as well as new sheets for the jib and anchor rode etc. She also required new paint top and bottom side. The sails are in reasonable shape as well.

Below are the before and after of the cabin and the outside is similar.

Best of luck,
c_witch
 

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#10 ·
If you do decide to scrap the boat, remember that there are a lot of reuseable/sellable items on it. Winches, mast/stanging rigging, blocks, lifeline components, outboard bracket, on and on. There is a market for these items. I buy everything I can used. A lot from Craigslist. Good luck, which ever way you decide to go.
 
#11 ·
My husband's been going over the paperwork. Whoever owned the boat before the guy who died bought it had a peel & reseal done at a cost of $6500. Husband doesn't think the boat has seen the water since that was done. No wonder it looks so nice outside.

We would be doing the work ourselves, not hiring it done. And we don't consider this an "investment" where we'd get our money back out of it. It's a hobby to throw money at, not the other way around. :)

We'll definitely take a closer look before we put any time or money into it, but so far he couldn't find any soft spots (not even at the mast step where it has been leaking). The inside isn't even half as bad as the picture c_witch posted. Probably because there's not as much woodwork. It's dirty and wet, but I didn't see any sign of anything rotting out except corrosion in the electrical box. The electric components are actually the only thing I could see on a brief inspection that probably need replacing; everything else just needs to be scrubbed and maybe bleached. There's a little woodwork that needs refinishing, but not a lot.
 
#12 ·
If you decide to scrap it please keep track of what you get for all the bits and pieces. It will be really interesting to find out what a boat like that is worth as parts.

Last year I went to look at a 40 foot aluminum sailboat that had clearly been a real gem in its day. It was still floating but in bad shape. A scrap yard literally across the street bought for like 5K. I would love to know what it actually was worth as scrap.

There is a scrap yard two doors down from our shop. We started hearing these loud booms coming from the scrap yard. It turns out that because scrap prices are so high they bought a huge loader with a shear on the boom. They actually cut the cars up in tiny pieces now, and the noise we heard was cutting tires off the rims with the air still in them!

Gary H. Lucas
 
#14 ·
I'll be sure to track it if we go that route.

And I'm glad I could help make your hard work feel worthwhile. :)
 
#15 · (Edited)
Scrap

Because I can guarantee at least a couple of your timber stringers now have rot via the standing water in the limber holes. I can also guarantee that the bulkheads have some rot somewhere.

You need to really really crawl around a boat and poke a rod in all sorts of hard to get places.

For the same amount of time and energy you are going to put into this Newport 27, there is likely a far nicer N27 just a few hours away sitting dry in a boatyard begging to be taken away.

Sell the keel, collect the hardware - start up the old' chain saw
 
#16 ·
Scrap

Because I can guarantee at least a couple of your timber stringers now have rot via the standing water in the limber holes. I can also guarantee that the bulkheads have some rot somewhere.

You need to really really crawl around a boat and poke a rod in all sorts of hard to get places.
You could very well be right, and that's the first thing we'll do before spending any money or significant time on it.

For the same amount of time and energy you are going to put into this Newport 27, there is likely a far nicer N27 just a few hours away sitting dry in a boatyard begging to be taken away.

Sell the keel, collect the hardware - start up the old' chain saw
My biggest concern is spending a bit of money on another boat that "looks" nicer only to find out it has bigger problems while being cosmetically prettier. But if there's rot in the boat that isn't in an easy-to-repair place, that's still an option. We'll see what happens when we can really crawl around in the boat - but first we have to get all the water drained out of it.
 
#17 ·
There are probably 2 areas to consider. First is financial and others have addressed those considerations. And if you do part it out on Craigslist or eBay, you'll be surprised how much of the $1600 you recoup... that trailer could end up free or nearly so.

The second question is which would you rather do for the next 2 years; fix-up a boat or sail a boat? I'm not being a wiseguy, some take great pleasure from refurbing a boat as though the work is a hobby unto itself. An honest answer to that question may lead you to a good decision.
 
#18 ·
That's a very important question. We ARE looking for a project. We WANT to refurbish a boat. The question is "how much?"

My husband is retiring at the end of the summer and needs something to keep him busy. I'd rather not have two years of refurbishing to do; ideally I'd like to have the boat ready for next summer. We have no plans to have a boat on the water this summer, however. For now, we have some friends who have invited us to go sailing with them, and frankly we'll be lucky if we have enough time to do that since our summer is pretty booked this year.
 
#20 ·
IMHP you do not have enough boat time to know if it is the right boat for you
I'm sure you're right. My husband has quite a lot more experience than I do, though still not nearly as much as all of you I'm sure. At least when it comes to sailboats. He has never owned a sailboat, but he used to co-own and manage a marina with lots of house boats, ski boats, and that sort of thing and before that he crewed on a large sailboat in Hawaii. My sailing experience is absolutely zero and my boating experience is only a tiny bit more than that.

He's going to be the one fixing up the boat, though; I'll help, but he's going to be in charge. So I leave the final decision up to him. He has to love the project or it won't get done (or, worse, it will get done but he won't enjoy it).
 
#21 ·
Just an update... we spent the day scrubbing out the inside of the boat. It came clean relatively easily considering how much grime was in there. Looking rather nice! And it gave us a chance to really get in there and look at every little detail.

We were only able to identify one (and only one) structural problem which needs to be addressed. I would love some advice for where to turn for repair information on this; it's major enough that we want to make sure we get it right. The boat has a tabernacle system for the mast. That part is fine. But inside the cabin the the support post that stands directly under the mast was fitted with an aluminum part which has completely corroded away. That, in turn, caused the top 1/2 inch or so of the support post to partially rot out. The post is made up of more than one piece of teak and I'm not quite sure what's under it. Before we pull the whole post out of there we'd like to have some idea of what the structure is like. Where can we find out about how these support posts are made, whether we need to replace the whole thing or whether we can just cut off the top inch or so and put in some kind of spacer (and if so, how), etc.. I would like to pull the whole post out if we can in order to make sure we don't have a similar problem below the floor where we can't see it, though there are no signs of soft spots or anything.

We also have some concerns about the condition of the keel bolts, but I think we probably know how to address those.
 
#22 ·
If there was enough moisture inside to eat away the top of the compression post and the fitting there, then the odds are the bottom has also been damaged. You need to excavate down and find out.

Typically you would slack the rigging off, then use a screw jack or lolly column to raise the cabin top and take the load while you remove the compression post, allowing the mast to stay in place. Or, lower the mast and then remove the post.

A new post is a "simple" matter of choosing a suitably strong piece of pipe or lumber and then fabricating new ends plates as needed. sometimes people have those welded up from aluminum alloy, sometimes UDHPE, again it is a matter of what is convenient for you, and strong. Extra points if it also looks good.
 
#23 ·
Yes, the husband is thinking about getting a stainless steel pipe for the job. He has a welder and can do stainless steel or aluminum welding. I don't know what exactly the structural support is made of but I think only the facing is teak; if we can get the facing off without ruining it we should be able to re-face it with the same teak and have it look nice.

The mast is not up right now anyway so that simplifies things a little.
 
#24 ·
Veneering is easy these days, the hardest part is finding the veneer which isn't hard if you mail-order it.

Even a plain 2x4 from the hardware store can support over a ton in compression, and a redwood 4x4 or fence post obvisouly more than double that. I'm not sure how you would figure the compression loading on a compression post but there must be something on the web about that. Personally I'd go for a metal post to save the weight (yes, even on a day sailer!) and then of course, you can always still veneer the post if you prefer the aesthetics of teak.
 
#25 ·
Late to the party.

The compression post should be easy enough to fix one way or another.

Please note that Newport made several variations of 27' sailboat. Here are the specs for the oldest one: NEWPORT 27-1 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com
Use this link to try and figure out which model N27 you have. It is good to know what year your boat was made. Many of them came with an Atomic 4 gasoline engine (optionally) installed.

For now you can use an outboard motor but if you decide you want to get out into deeper coastal waters an inboard engine is a much better choice. I'm not trying to make more work for you. I just think that you should know this.

What I think a sail ready N27 is worth:
with an outboard motor: $3500
with an inboard Atomic 4 motor: $5000
with an inboard diesel engine: $7500.

It is good to know what year your boat was manufactured as that gives you a good idea of how long it has been since the chain plates have been attended to(ignored). Chain plates on older boats are often a project that is needed.

Hope you don't have to scrap her.
Good luck.
 
#26 ·
Thanks for the input! The boat is a 1970, so yeah it's pretty old.

We have been going back and forth on whether to do an inboard engine or not. If we do, it will absolutely be a diesel. The entire inboard and all its related hardware (except the gas tank, which we're planning to go ahead and use for the outboard) have been removed. We found an entire diesel replacement for the Atomic 4 for sale off another Newport that's being parted out, and it's pretty tempting. I don't know that we'll ever really go offshore, though, so it may be overkill for us. Most likely we will sail up and down the Columbia River, and may trailer up to Puget Sound or down to San Francisco once in a while. While I dream of sailing to Hawaii someday, it probably won't be on this boat.

Unrelated to the drive train... maybe someone here can help solve this puzzle: Under the cockpit there is a freshwater tank attached to the galley sink. We absolutely cannot find the input for filling up the tank. There appears to only be one hose, and that goes to the faucet. There's a plug on the top of the tank and we can fit a hose to it and run it somewhere, but the tank is NOT easily accessible and it's hard to believe it was originally meant to be filled through that plug. Are we missing something obvious here?
 
#28 ·
We searched for one, but couldn't find any. We'll create one if we need to, of course.
 
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