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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Knapps Narrows Incident - Post Mortem
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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-20-2012 10:20 AM
smurphny
Re: Knapps Narrows Incident - Post Mortem

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
… Lines or sheets will eventually get caught on virtually anything if given half the chance...
Forgive me for editing down your post but truer words were never spoken!
08-20-2012 09:43 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Knapps Narrows Incident - Post Mortem

Quote:
Originally Posted by capta View Post
All the other stuff aside; how long do you people need to have a boat before you learn where the cleats are and stop banging your toes on them?
Come on, people, get a grip and some situational awareness!
Thanks for the tip, but I believe I’m reasonably capable of sorting out the deck layouts of most boats I get on fairly quickly… These days, trust me, that’s often easier said than done…

On my own boat, I’d really have to make a special effort to trip over my midship cleats. The measure I take with the chocks is more of a preventative one against the possibility of snagging a lazy sheet/guy, or a safety tether perhaps, and simply seems to me like a seamanlike and worthwhile precaution to take offshore… Lines or sheets will eventually get caught on virtually anything if given half the chance, and I just shake my head at the amount of crap that will easily do so on many cruising boats today, and how little attention is paid to keeping decks as clear as possible… As good an indication as any, I suppose, of how little sailing some folks out there actually do…

Always a tradeoff on the deck of a small boat, but I’ll sometimes accept the addition of another tripping hazard in order to avoid a likely place for a sheet or control line to get hung up… The short yellow shock cord run to the lower lifeline is such an example, it’s needed to inhibit my genoa sheets from catching underneath the corners of my tender stowed on the foredeck…

But, rest assured, when I leave the cockpit at night, I’m well aware of all the lines I might have lying on deck, and that I must step over both my boom brake control line, and that little shock cord up forward, well before I arrive at either… (grin)

08-19-2012 11:28 PM
capta
Re: Knapps Narrows Incident - Post Mortem

All the other stuff aside; how long do you people need to have a boat before you learn where the cleats are and stop banging your toes on them?
Come on, people, get a grip and some situational awareness!
08-19-2012 08:26 PM
smurphny
Re: Knapps Narrows Incident - Post Mortem

Thanks again, nice picture. If we cross gps coordinates, I owe you a beer.
08-19-2012 07:39 PM
JonEisberg
Re: Knapps Narrows Incident - Post Mortem

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
That is great Jon! Thank You. I've been in a quandary about this issue for years. That solves the problem. My next internet stop is to the cleat dept.
Here’s another pic, hope this helps…



I’m not a big fan of the genoa track cleats, either… OK for racing boats, but for a cruising boat, seems a temporary solution, at best… Tying spring lines to cleats or winches well inboard of the rail can create a real tripping hazard on deck, especially when tied to a fixed dock well above deck level…

I also don’t like the possibility of eccentric side or twisting loads that can be placed upon the track by a raised cleat. Normal sheet loads on tracks are primarily upwards. But the sort of heavy snatching/side loading that mooring lines could impart on a genoa track would appear to be similar to side forces put upon lifeline stanchions, and virtually guaranteed to work and create deck leaks, over time…

I put genoa tracks in the same category as winches, and windlasses in this case… They’re simply not intended to be subjected to sharp, snatching forces, do it right with a properly mounted and backed deck cleat…
08-19-2012 03:21 PM
Silvio
Re: Knapps Narrows Incident - Post Mortem

Just to jump on the discussion re mid cleats. I will install a set eventually, but in the mean time what I have found to work is I tie a long dock line around the base of my shrouds and use it as a mid cleat line when docking. I dock single handed quite frequently and I run this mid tied line back to the cockpit winch. It allows me to settle the boat down with a single line until I can get proper dock lines fixed. I have used this technique in many different and difficult situations with good results. I wouldn't use this as a permanent dock line but it is very helpful for getting into a slip or side tied to a floating dock or wall.
08-19-2012 02:09 PM
smurphny
Re: Knapps Narrows Incident - Post Mortem

The rails are certainly strong. Mine are bolted right through and serve as the deck to hull attachment. I think the flat, bolted down plates like yours and mine are probably a lot stronger for this kind of thing than some of the aluminum vertical genoa tracks. Well, I've ordered some traditional 8" - 4 bolt s.s. cleats. Now I need to make up some backing plates and covers as Jon described. Think I'm going to just make them out of some nice tight grain Red Cedar I have with a tie that loops through the center of the cleat. They'll look like rounded blocks, covering the whole cleat. In any case it will be really nice to have some midships cleats.
08-19-2012 01:00 PM
eherlihy
Re: Genoa Track Cleats

Quote:
Originally Posted by smurphny View Post
I could be wrong but they don't look very strong, especially the type that look like they are made from small bent rod. Yours look pretty rugged. Not only that but I don't know that these tracks were really designed to take the kind of stress that can be applied at times to a cleat. I wouldn't want to take a chance on damaging the genny track which would be a major repair job. Visually, it just looks like they can apply a lot of leverage to the track/toerail.
Mine were made by Garhauer Garhauer Marine Hardware -4895102. I can assure you that they are strong...

The loads that the Genoa cars are under in "normal" use are also fairly heavy (that's why you use winches to manage the sail trim and lines). It would be interesting to have someone with a tensile gauge measure the loads (hello - Maine Sail). However, I firmly believe that the track on my vessel is strong enough to handle the loads. - YMMV
08-19-2012 12:53 PM
smurphny
Re: Knapps Narrows Incident - Post Mortem

I could be wrong but they don't look very strong, especially the type that look like they are made from small bent rod. Yours look pretty rugged. Not only that but I don't know that these tracks were really designed to take the kind of stress that can be applied at times to a cleat. I wouldn't want to take a chance on damaging the genny track which would be a major repair job. Visually, it just looks like they can apply a lot of leverage to the track/toerail.
08-19-2012 12:51 PM
Sabreman
Re: Knapps Narrows Incident - Post Mortem

I understand your dilemma. I've been into Knapps Narrows and the current can be very swift. I think that I would have done two things differently.

1. When the dockhand was jumping up and down I would have thought that something might be wrong and aborted the docking. I know that thunderstorms were imminent, but better to be wet than damaged. On the other hand, many dock hands wave to let you know where to dock so it could be easy to misinterpret the signals. If the signals were ambiguous, I would have called the marina and asked what their dockhand was trying to convey (and also suggest that they spend $100 and give the guy a radio).

2. I would definitely not docked with the wind and water at my stern. With them on your bow, they act as a brake. On your stern, they act as a propellant. I've never had an elegant docking with forces on my stern.
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