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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Electronics > Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?
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Thread: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-03-2012 08:09 PM
MastUndSchotbruch
Re: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
It fouls your halyards?

That's all you need to know, clear it off. Hang it someplace else when you need it, or paint it like a totem pole and leave it on a flag halyard as "art". :-)
Alea iacta est.

The thing comes down.

Thanks, guys.
09-03-2012 01:56 PM
hellosailor
Re: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?

It fouls your halyards?

That's all you need to know, clear it off. Hang it someplace else when you need it, or paint it like a totem pole and leave it on a flag halyard as "art". :-)
09-03-2012 01:20 PM
rikhall
Re: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastUndSchotbruch View Post
The question was whether it makes sense to take it off the mast and hoist it to the spreaders when needed.
1 - If it make you feel good, sure, hoist it when it gets foggy.

2 - By all means, take it down from its permanent position. From the sound of it, it is more hassle than it is worth.

We have radar and use it when needed. And that can easily be about 1/4 to 1/3 of the time during a three week trip.

We also have AIS and use it as well..

Us, personally, we would not be without our radar nor our AIS. And yes, I do have a cheap (bought a Bacon's 2nd hand) fold up reflector. I don't think I've put it up yet. Our sailing buddies say we give a pretty good target on their radar.

Shalom

Rik
09-03-2012 10:02 AM
MastUndSchotbruch
Re: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadiseParrot View Post
Correct 70% average of 25% of minimum needed return makes it the least worthless of the completely worthless and still adds nothing to your safety with large shipping. But It should help the 30 ft fishing boats out there from hitting you.

Practical Sailor is using a 2.5 sq. meter as a minimum.
ISO uses 7.5 and UK government uses 10 sq meters and warns that that will really not be seen.
Your boating safety dollar is wasted on these products and a $25 dollar model will keep you in regs.
Yes, 2.5sq meter was considered adequate, and therefore was the standard until a few years ago. Now the standard has been changed to 10 sq m.

But, if I may, can I come back to my original question? It was not whether or not to BUY a trilens reflector. This is (for me) a moot question since I have one for several years on my mast. The question was whether it makes sense to take it off the mast and hoist it to the spreaders when needed.

From the discussion so far, it seems nobody has a strong argument against this, so given the disadvantages of its present location (halyard wrap), I will likely to proceed with my plan.
09-03-2012 02:30 AM
ParadiseParrot
Re: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastUndSchotbruch View Post
.......
I agree with your conclusion that active radar plus AIS is best. If this is not in the cards, and neither is a $4000.- passive reflector, then these reports, in agreement with the Practical Sailor study that I cited, all agree that the Trilens is the best solution.
Correct 70% average of 25% of minimum needed return makes it the least worthless of the completely worthless and still adds nothing to your safety with large shipping. But It should help the 30 ft fishing boats out there from hitting you.

Practical Sailor is using a 2.5 sq. meter as a minimum.
ISO uses 7.5 and UK government uses 10 sq meters and warns that that will really not be seen.
Your boating safety dollar is wasted on these products and a $25 dollar model will keep you in regs.
09-03-2012 12:33 AM
MastUndSchotbruch
Re: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParadiseParrot View Post
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets...ctor+tests.pdf

beth and evans discussion of above.

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Rada...tor%20test.pdf

Practical boat owner magizine discussing FAIL.

Ouzo report: Radar reflectors fail test | News | Pbo

USSSAILING,,,,,,,Passive's FAIL....

only active reflector showed any use.

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets...r+Test.pdf.pdf


Given how and when large ships use radar Passive radar reflector have only psychological use.If it make you feel good then fly one but the OP's installation is causing more harm to his safety than a reflector could add to it.

Your own radar with AIS is the way to go....Active reflectors seem to work reasonably well but for there cost and power use i would just my own radar.

Several studies where undertaken by independent agencies because of rundown incidents with large shipping. The results are all more or less the same.
The first two sources are from the 1995 report that is also referred to by Practical Sailor. At that time, the Trilens reflector did not exist.

The other two are from the Ouzo accident investigation in 2007. The conclusion is that none of the passive reflectors can achieve the 10m^2 criterion. The large Trilens has the second best RCS of all passive reflectors, after the Polaref whose price-point (2000.- British pounds) gives some pause. Predictibly, RCS of the the smaller Trilens is considerably lower but it still outperforms all passive reflectors except the large Trilens and the Polarref for healing angles exceeding 15degrees (which of course is of great interest for sailling vessels). As a side note, the Davis is the worst of the octahedrals.

I agree with your conclusion that active radar plus AIS is best. If this is not in the cards, and neither is a $4000.- passive reflector, then these reports, in agreement with the Practical Sailor study that I cited, all agree that the Trilens is the best solution.
09-02-2012 10:03 PM
ParadiseParrot
Re: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?

Admitting they dont work the UK government modifies Solas for rec boat under there flag.
7.) Owners and operators should note that under Regulation 18 equipment meeting the requirements of Regulation 19 must be type approved. However by virtue of Regulation 1.4, the Agency allows United Kingdom vessels which are too small to fit reflectors meeting the IMO standards to fit equipment suitable for the type and size of vessel.


UK government .........


One should be installed for the benefit of your insurance company so you appear to try and meet SAS requirements(which you cant)
Put it up where it will do the least damage.

Solas
2.1.7 if less than 150 gross tonnage and if practicable, a radar reflector, or
other means
, to enable detection by ships navigating by radar at both 9
and 3 GHz;


ISO 8729-1-2 Performance Standards for Radar Reflectors effective 22nd July 09 are shown below.
The reflector must have a Stated Performance Level of 7.5M2 measured in meters radar cross section (M2RCS) of at least 7.5M2 in X band and 0.5M2 in S Band mounted a minimum 4 meters above sea level.




The following notes gives further guidance on the choice of a radar reflector for small vessels and supersede Merchant Shipping Notice M.1638.

5.) It should be noted by Master and Operators of all vessels that even the 10 m2 reflectors referred to above will be difficult to detect in sea clutter on radar displays. Masters of all vessels are reminded that this should be taken in to account when setting lookouts and determining safe speed as required by Rules 5 and 6 of the International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea.
09-02-2012 09:58 PM
ParadiseParrot
Re: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?

Sea-Me Crew Safety. ISO 8729 Part 2


States no current passive reflector meets the new 2009 updated standard.
09-02-2012 09:06 PM
ParadiseParrot
Re: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by MastUndSchotbruch View Post
I don't know which study you are referring to. Practical Sailor found that the medium and large trilens is far superior to the Davis. See http://www.tri-lens.com/practical_sailor.txt for a copy of the 2001 report. Quotes:

"The Tri-Lens easily out performed all other reflectors in the 1995 test."

"It costs more than the Davis Echomaster, but out performs it. If you're in the market for a passive radar reflector, we recommend the Tri-Lens."

Better doesn't mean effective....sorry.

Practical sailor did not take into account HOW shipping uses radar only how they performed relative to each other.
09-02-2012 09:04 PM
ParadiseParrot
Re: Remove (trilens) radar reflector from mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PorFin View Post
Would you care to post where to find the results of these recent studies?
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets...ctor+tests.pdf

beth and evans discussion of above.

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Rada...tor%20test.pdf

Practical boat owner magizine discussing FAIL.

Ouzo report: Radar reflectors fail test | News | Pbo

USSSAILING,,,,,,,Passive's FAIL....

only active reflector showed any use.

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets...r+Test.pdf.pdf


Given how and when large ships use radar Passive radar reflector have only psychological use.If it make you feel good then fly one but the OP's installation is causing more harm to his safety than a reflector could add to it.

Your own radar with AIS is the way to go....Active reflectors seem to work reasonably well but for there cost and power use i would just my own radar.

Several studies where undertaken by independent agencies because of rundown incidents with large shipping. The results are all more or less the same.
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