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Go Back   SailNet Community > Out There > Cruising & Liveaboard Forum > Limitation of Liability
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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-19-2012 03:00 AM
svzephyr44
Re: Limitation of Liability

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidpm View Post
that sounds like a good idea.
Would you mind sharing it?
Try this link https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B2D...kZpVWJ3VndsYkk
09-18-2012 06:44 PM
davidpm
Re: Limitation of Liability

Quote:
Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
I have created a "standing orders" document that is primarily the standard operating procedures.
that sounds like a good idea.
Would you mind sharing it?
09-18-2012 12:22 PM
bvander66
Re: Limitation of Liability

Quote:
Originally Posted by svzephyr44 View Post
FYI - every major sailboat race I have been in (e.g. Chicago - Mac) the race organizers have required everyone to sign waivers. Its funny, the list of required safety equipment for a Chicago - Mac costs about $10,000 to $20,000. You have to have it on board to race. But the waiver says if you screw up its all your fault.

Also, bad stuff does happen. In the most recent Chicago - Mac two people were killed in a freak storm. (The first fatalities in over 100 Chicago - Mac races.) Trust me, more than someone will be looking at liability.
I have no doubt that major race/rally organizers have waivers, this has been the norm since the Falmouth disaster. Even some sailing clubs/associations have a beginning of the year waiver for the race season, not that they are worth the paper they are written on, but they do allow lawyers to make more money. I agree with the aspect of a "contract/agreement" if taking on crew for a major voyage, makes sense to make sure all are on the same page, and good protection for crew and skipper, but this is different from a waiver imho.
09-18-2012 03:48 AM
svzephyr44
Re: Limitation of Liability

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvander66 View Post
If I was putting our boat into a long hard offshore race I might think of a waiver, but remain convinced that for day to day events they should not be necessary.
FYI - every major sailboat race I have been in (e.g. Chicago - Mac) the race organizers have required everyone to sign waivers. Its funny, the list of required safety equipment for a Chicago - Mac costs about $10,000 to $20,000. You have to have it on board to race. But the waiver says if you screw up its all your fault.

Also, bad stuff does happen. In the most recent Chicago - Mac two people were killed in a freak storm. (The first fatalities in over 100 Chicago - Mac races.) Trust me, more than someone will be looking at liability.
09-18-2012 03:40 AM
svzephyr44
Re: Limitation of Liability

Quote:
Originally Posted by bvander66 View Post
This thread is so sad. I guess a testemant to the times we live in.
I don't see it that way. I too have been sailing for years - 55 to be semi-exact. I have crewed, raced, recruited crew on my boat, etc. What motivated me to post this thread is that the people I am recruiting are much removed from my former crews. It is easy in the US to check people out. I also, perhaps incorrectly, presume they have similar attitudes with respect to risk and liability. My crews are now international. They may have different backgrounds, life experiences, and expectations about liability. As a consequence I have reduced to writing a lot of things that I used to pass on verbally to my crew. I have created a "standing orders" document that is primarily the standard operating procedures for Reboot. I used the term "limitation of liability" in this thread because it was the one area where I was looking for some good language but it is part of a document - call it a contract - that lays out my relationship to the crew, for example:
1. Who pays the cost of getting to and from Reboot,
2. Expected arrival and departure dates,
3. Required contributions to operation (normally one share of the food costs,)
4. My expectations about health insurance,
5. Medical needs,
6. Emergency contact information
5. Citizenship information (primarily for the crew list checking into and out of countries

The purpose is to assure that there is no misunderstanding about rights and responsibilities and that I have the data I need to deal with local authorities and provide proper care in the event of a medical problem or accident.

Also, in the event of a serious problem I want to make sure that not only my temporary crew but also his/her family, successors, agents, insurance companies, etc. know the score. I know from personal experience that very reasonable people can get very crazy and nasty when egged on by a lawyer looking at what the lawyer believes to be a large contingency fee.

You have your point of view and I have mine. Just as many Captains will no longer take on crew that smokes you would not be welcome on my boat unless you signed the "contract." All that means is we don't agree.

Fair winds and following seas.
09-18-2012 02:32 AM
night0wl
Re: Limitation of Liability

I guess its inevitable...you sign waivers for everything now. Past commodore in our club asks for people to sign waivers when crewing aboard his boat. He is a smart and well-off man, so I assume he has stuff to lose....
09-17-2012 06:30 PM
bvander66
Re: Limitation of Liability

So seriously, there is so many things in life where in theory you could be liable. Think about the 10000s of boats racing once a week and the occasional weekend, should all those crews sign a waiver? Beginning of season or each race depending on what position they man?
Does every tour boat have their patrons sign waivers? I know the schooners out of Annapolis and NYC dont.
Lets move from the water. Based on some of the premises listed above we should have someone sign a waiver everytime they are a passanger in your car. What if you car pool? Each day or each year?
What if you have a party in your house, someone could get burnt on the BBQ, should have a waiver n'est pas?
If I was putting our boat into a long hard offshore race I might think of a waiver, but remain convinced that for day to day events they should not be neccesary. I ahve crewed Norfolk to BVIs and NYC to Bermuda and nobody ever talked about waivers.
If I am wrong, well then perhaps the world has become a much sadder place than I believe.
09-17-2012 05:59 PM
bvander66
Re: Limitation of Liability

Quote:
Originally Posted by delite View Post
If you accomplish nothing else be sure to name a jurisdiction where the courts would have jurisdiction in the event of a dispute. I'd suggest just about anywhere but the US given the litigious nature of people, and excessive judgements (Mississippi for example is brutal).
guess the answer is dont bring crew aboard in the US.
09-17-2012 05:57 PM
bvander66
Re: Limitation of Liability

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdi View Post
After you own the boat and all the responsibility with it be sure to get back to us.
Own a boat for 25 years now, so getting back to you and have had crew aboard, also crewed on other boats, both coastal and offshore and have never experianced waivers. Even sailed with a lawyer once lol.
09-17-2012 03:56 PM
johnnyquest37
Re: Limitation of Liability

We often take crew aboard our boat - around 40 different folks over the course of a season. For pleasure cruises, we only this year starting asking folks to sign a waiver. Decided to do this because last year, one of our crew fell onto the dock while leaving the boat, and she injured her hip - one that had been replaced a few years earlier. She didn't sue me or anything like that (in fact, the doctors discovered cancer when she was being checked out from this fall - she says the fall saved her life), but I started to research the liability issue in this case. Would I be liable? The marina? Where is the line when embarcking/debarking? In the course of the research, I found more than one horror story where crew were injured and the boat owners ended up getting hosed. It's not just the dude who gets hurt putting it to his boat owning friends. When medical insurance is involved, the insurance company often goes after the boat owners, even if the injuried party doesn't want to.
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