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Crimping versus Soldering

117K views 285 replies 73 participants last post by  desert rat 
#1 ·
I am not trying to bring up another very heated argument on this board, but I would like to tell anyone still soldering that almost without exception, EVERY soldered joint on the V-42 we have is corroding and failing. It may have taken close to 20 years to do it, but we did not find these issues on ANY of the crimped joints... NONE.

If that is not a first hand testimonial to crimp over solder, I do not know what is.

- CD
 
#232 ·
LET THIS THREAD DIE!!!:eek:

ABYC standards do not allow a soldered connection unless it is also crimped.

Ulferlingsson
Your time would be better spent fixing your deck properly instead of worrying about soldering vs crimping.:D
Hahahah I don't worry one bit, I know perfectly well what I am doing, and as for that deck, the boat has a serious design flaw. Fixing it to as-new condition is just not good enough. ROFL
 
#233 ·
Crimp 'em

Let the thread die? But I just got here, and this is one of the few things I know something about.

I was a marine electrician journeyman and foreman for 12 years at a Naval shipyard specializing in nuclear attack submarine overhauls. These boats are made as bulletproof as humanly possible with back ups to the backups.

We were constrained from soldering anything except for the gold pins and sockets in some of the older multipin connectors. We had to use un-insulated crimp connectors (never red, blue, or yellow insulated connectors) crimped with a Thomas and Betts 110 crimper, then shrink tube went over the crimp with the wire's ID on it. The Navy electrical design engineers decided thus for all the supporting reasons already pointed out here.

Roly
 
#234 · (Edited)
I have some much cheaper alternatives that still offer the same longevity as the method recommended in this thread.

I use a very small bit of solder inside my crimp terminals (but not enough to run down and stiffen the wire). This offers the same benefit and longevity of tinned marine grade wire and connectors, but with much cheaper automotive grade components.

Also- if I'm out of adhesive lined heatshrink, or it's too expensive you can obtain the same benefit by thoroughly coating the terminal in dielectric grease or petroleum jelly before applying the heatshrink. This will displace any free volume inside the connector, and make it impossible for water or oxygen to intrude.

For those of us living inland it's impossible to purchase marine grade electronics on short notice, so improvisation is sometimes required. My connections done with regular auto parts store components have held up long-term in saltwater environments done this way.
 
#235 ·
marine vs automotive electrical components

Cas,
I assume there is heat applied to the bit of solder in the crimp barrel?

Seems reasonable to me, like tinning the connector.

I have dunked wire ends into vaseline before putting on a crimp connector for a long time. I remembered this after I had already posted my comments. dielectric inside a piece of shrink is a good idea.

The fact that selling something as a "Marine" item adds 500% to it's price over "Standard" stuff, be it electrical or otherwise, makes creativity in "marineizing" stuff ones self cost effective. I used 2 ga.welding cable for distributing 12 volt power in my Albin Vega, between batteries, main switch, and distribution panels successfully for years. I tinned connecting ends, heat shrink sealed the insulation cuts, and applied dielectric grease to all the crimp terminals, and ran it all well above the bilge. Worked just fine, and cost many dollars less than fully tinned marine cable. Regular inspections and resistance checking showed up no deterioration in 10 years.

I once had to replace the power cable to a submersible pump in a sump at the bottom of the periscope well in a Sturgeon class submarine. It had been installed with non tinned wire, and the copper strands were corroded into black powder. I would not advise welding cable for this sort of application.

Regards, Roly
 
#236 · (Edited)
Cas,
I assume there is heat applied to the bit of solder in the crimp barrel?
Yes, I'm talking about soldering the wire and terminal together after crimping. The solder has to enter from the terminal end and the amount of heat applied limited, to avoid having it wick down the wire and stiffening it, which will later cause the wire to break.

I'll also mention that I can't find any way to do this when splicing two wires together, as butt connectors are closed in the middle. I think it works fine to splice two wires by twisting them, and soldering- because a free hanging splice doesn't experience the same sort of cracking/bending torque that a flexible wire soldered to a fixed object does.

Perhaps another option would be to drill a small hole in the center of the butt connector and fill it in with solder. I haven't tried this yet.
 
#239 ·
I doubt you could put $2000 worth of wire in a Catalina 22. In Canada I pay $29 for 100' of tinned 14/2. That is at an industrial supplier that will sell to anyone with a $50 minimum. GenuineDealz in the US is higher but still not expensive. Genuinedealz > Marine Wire, Boat Wire, Boat Cable, Marine Grade
I can crimp a butt join with the proper connector and heat shrink it in about the time it takes for your soldering iron to get hot. And then I have a durable, waterproof, compliant connection.
 
#240 · (Edited)
I doubt you could put $2000 worth of wire in a Catalina 22.
Have you ever heard of West Marine? Just joking, but that's the only place to buy marine grade electronics around here, unless I plan far enough in advance and order online.

Plus- my boat was made with non-tinned wire ran through inaccessible spots and the entire harness is still good after 36 years. It still works great if I use solder inside the crimp terminals, but if I just crimp to them they'll stop conducting in less than a year.

//Edit: You make a good point though about how much quicker/easier pure crimping is. Although I use a heavy duty soldering iron with a large external power supply, and a digital thermostat- and it warms up almost instantly. My method is more work but it's much cheaper, and lasts as long as anything.
 
#241 ·
In this day and age you can order from anywhere promptly. I ordered a part from the UK and received it in 5 days - including a weekend. GenuineDealz is prompt as well and when I purchased my battery cable crimpers from them they arrived in a few days. Both of the above had to cross borders so I look at time frame as a bit of an excuse.
I would think if you just crimped properly and used adhesive heat shrink that the moisture would be kept out indefinitely. It works several hundred feet down a well so should also keep moisture out in a Catalina 22. Tinned is better but most 30 year old boats do not have tinned wire and are still functioning.
 
#242 ·
A friend asked me about crimping vs soldering his coax connections via email. I wanted to point him to SailNet in support of crimping.

Instead, I found this;
DonCasey said:
Soldered terminals On final weak link is the end connectors. The connectors at both ends of the cable should be soldered to the cable. Solder connectors are not difficult to do, but if you don't feel competent to attempt this, do not fall back on crimp connectors as your alternative. Find a hobbyist friend or pay a technician to attach proper solder terminals.

I like to order cable with at least one terminal already soldered on by the supplier. This is the terminal I put at the masthead, appropriately waterproofed with adhesive-lined heat shrink (my preference), amalgamating tape, or silicone sealant. I feed the bare end through the mast and the boat, soldering on the connector at the radio end. In this way, I have a high level of confidence in the masthead terminal, and one I attach is easily accessible in case I botch the job.

Over and over we meet fellow cruisers lamenting poor performance of their VHF radios. All it usually takes to avoid this fate are fat wires, fat coax, and soldered terminals.
http://www.sailnet.com/forums/miscellaneous/22190-there-nothing-wrong-your-radio.html
:eek: :rolleyes:

Thoughts / Rebuttal?
 
#246 ·
eh-
When you are talking about soldering on a VHF antenna connection, that's electronic signal cables.

Different from electrical cables which carry only power, not signals.

In signal cables, especially larger size crimped fittings that are exposed to weather, the signal is easily distorted, corrupted, interrupted by any break in the electrical characteristic of the cable. Soldering is the way to go--if you can make a clean solder joint. When you've got an RF signal in an antenna cable, everything, including the number of connectors and their physical size (mainly diameter) in relation to the cable they are in, changes signal quality.

The problem with soldering VHF coax connectors (PL-259, SO-239, whatever you want to refer to them by) is that unless you are spot on with the soldering, you melt the inner insulator and short out the cable. Or, you don't heat the outer connector and don't bond to the shield. There are very few people who have soldered these cables without screwing up the first couple of attempts, unless they've done soldering before. (And even then, there are "better" are worse ways to get the job done.)

I will use crimp-on coax connectors, and have seen a number of clever patented variations (like a gold "claw" design, I think from Shakespeare), when I have to. That means at a masthead, or as a spare while in motion and bouncing around without a good means of soldering. But a properly made solder connection on a coax fitting is not subject to any physical stress, the coax fitting itself strain-relieves the cable.

I'd say the crimp-on ones are more likely to be done workably up front, less likely to be perfect and stay that way for the long run.

Very different from crimping on battery cables or power leads.

You haven't hit any contradiction about when to solder and when to crimp, you've just hit a boundary between "electrical power" and "electronics signal".
 
#247 ·
There is so much BS about this subject, it is sickening. I'm a marine electronics service technician and have been doing this for 35 years. I have installed hundreds of both crimp type and solder type or combination thereof, of coax connectors. Neither is "better", IF using quality connectors, the proper method of installation, the proper tools and proper weatherproofing technique. It is rare for me to find one installed properly by the do-it-yourselfer or inexperienced/improperly taught pro. It is amazing to me how many improperly installed coax connectors there are in the marine world. It's a common problem that will never go away.

I recommend that you do not use the Shakespeare gold center-pin coax connectors. I have replaced a ridiculous number of these due to failure of the shield connection. There's a whole pile of used ones sitting in my shop. I have more info on this problem with pictures if anyone is interested.

Eric
 
#248 ·
My question is what situation calls for use of either or?

I have seen numerous posts on the correct procedure for both types of fittings, but never a clear and present explanation of when to either one.

Don't be so harsh on the DIYers, sometimes the motivation is just to have a better understanding of whats behind the panels rather than cost effectiveness. I think when I am at that part of prepping I will use the consultation of someone in your profession mixed with a healthy serving of DIY as well. You get the best of both worlds that way.

Lastly, thanks to everyone for their musing on the subject, the thread has given purpose to a glass of Brandy.
 
#250 ·
We build nightclubs.
Our sound engineer solders every connection that carries audio signal, these connections spend their lives in an air conditioned Amp room, no physical abuse, no load, we just want the cleanest path with the least resistance.

Our sound engineer also sails, we use ancor crimp connectors, with a ratcheting crimp tool and gelled heatshrink on every connection that carries power.
 
#252 ·
In a properly executed crimp, there's nothing to fill.

A good ratchet crimper, like the Greenlee series, creates a solid mass of copper inside the lug. If you cut one in half with a hack saw, you'll see nothing but solid copper. Looks like a solid copper rod.

I'd post a pic, but I hate the Sailnet pic posting routine. WHY CANT THEY FIX IT, like Cruiser's Forum or SSCA???

Anyway, adhesive heat shrink is faster and makes a good waterproof connection. The liquid stuff is very messy.

Bill
 
#254 ·
Cool.. could pass for a soldered joint! So very tight that the wire will eventually flex at the end of the connector and strands will break. (here we go again) lol I still like solder. only because I have so much soldering equipment on hand from many years in the hvac trade.
I really like the solder pellets the Genuine deals sells.
And here we have the HF tools
 
#258 ·
I'm working on my cal 25 just bought , had some ground ishews found the problems were crimp conectors not properly crimped or viberation, I see a lot of this in the automotive industry over the past 35 years.
The reason that a wire might break before or after a solder joint is when soldering your getting the wire to hot witch causes the wire to get brittle. Here is what I use solderseal but splice conectors you can buy at Amazon. All you need to due is heat it up with a heat gun, it solders and seals it all in one. you can buy a heat gun at harbor freight for 14dollors.
 
#259 ·
And products like those are why the ABYC prohibits solder as the sole means of mechanical connection... Please be careful...

Remember that solder is engineered to be flowing a temps below the burning of plastic. This means in a high resistance situation your solder can melt BEFORE the jacket lights on fire and release the wire so you now have a live dangling hot wire to short out on something. If using those I would not recommend pushing your fusing to the wires max ampacity for OCP.
 
#262 ·
Maine Sail, I would really value your opinion on which HEAT SHRINK CRIMPERS you think are the best... I have read your article many times... I bought the pair from sailor solutions.... They are nice, but I would like a really, really great pair. (for heat shrink only) I also bought the AMP T-Head Crimpers not realizing that they were not for heat shrink Terminals and Butt Connectors. (oops that was an expensive mistake) LOL.... So if your out there Maine Sail.... I would greatly appreciate your advice...
 
#263 ·
Actually the t-head works fine if you set the strain relief to its highest setting. I modified my t-head so the "stop" was no longer there. I can now do butts with it too but you need to be careful how you insert them. I've yet to have the t-head rip the insulation on a heat shrink crimp and the t-head does a beautiful job..
 
#265 ·
Maine Sail.... Thankyou so much for your replay....I know this is an old thread and has been beat to death, BUT it is new too me and I am just learning to do it right... Ive been doing it very wrong for years and I really like to do things right... I considered cutting the stop off of the T-Head crimpers, but I didnt do it because I wasnt sure if the crimping surface was wide enough, with enough surface area for the delicate heat shrink terminals... But if thats the way you do it, then I am more than comfortable doing it that way too.... But I still need a pair for the Yellow connectors....SVTatia Said you recommended the Pro'sKit frame and die.... I know this is an older post, so is the Pro'sKit frame and die still your go to crimper for heat shrink if your T-Head isnt around... I want a great quality pair for heat shrink.... I thought maybe AMP or another hi quality (t and B) manufacturer might make a pair.... I want to buy one last pair and be done... I will have my Moidfied T-Head crimpers, My sailors Solution crimpers, and whatever this last recommendation from you is.... Thankyou so much for your time...I have read many, many of your articles... I have even bought the BUTYL (six rolls)... It is very obvious that you care about and do great quality work... I respect and value you opinion very much... Thankyou for your articles and your help here...
 
#267 ·
Yes the Pro's Kit is a decent tool but the cheaper ones from Sailors Solutions, Ancor or others make a slightly stronger crimp. I have been bugging the owner of Pro's Kit to do a heat shrink terminal die that is better suited and "slightly" smaller for a stronger crimp. They just launched an MC4 crimp die so they do progress... If using FTZ Crimp--n-Seal terminals they Pro's Kit works well. The die on the AMP is much wider than most tools...

You can't go wrong with a Pro's Kit tool as the crimp frame will take numerous dies. I have about 6-7 sets for mine and a few frames. Everything from MC4, BNC, PL259's etc. etc...
 
#266 ·
SVTatia.... Thankyou as well for your reply.... I was going to buy those but thought since its an older post maybe some new light my have been shed... I do value Maine Sails opinion very much... Lets see if these are still his number one pick for heat shrink, or if he has found a pair he likes better.... I will say this though.... The Pro'sKit is one hell of a value if they do a Hi quality job.... They almost seem to good to be true at that price... Thanks your your post.... SO since you use this one, are you happy with the proskits consistency and crimp quality? Thank you as well for your opinion and help...
 
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