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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > New(er) vs. Old(er)
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Thread: New(er) vs. Old(er) Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-18-2012 10:13 PM
PCP
Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
No I can't.
Only if you don't want to.

Regards

Paulo
10-18-2012 08:59 PM
sonofasonofasailer456
Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Very interesting:

"Buy an older and a bit rundown but fundamentally decent boat and refit it. But does it really work? To explore that important question, I have a true story to tell you.
….
Over a couple of years Bob spent a lot of time looking at second-hand boats and finally settled on a 15 year old Fastnet 45, a racer cruiser from the reputable Dutch builder LeCompte, that was in her day perceived to be right up there with Hinckley and Nautor’s-Swan on the quality scale.

The boat was a bit beaten up by her years of offshore cruising and racing but everyone he asked assured Bob that he was getting a great buy at just US$65,000. And that included a huge amount of gear, from electronics to some 15 bags of sails…

The boat did need rewiring, but on the other hand the engine had just been rebuilt and the mast and rigging was replaced just five years before, after a dismasting.

The interior was not really set up for cruising that well, but Bob is a handy kind of guy who figured he could convert the stripped forward cabin to a really nice owner’s cabin with double berth.

Of course Bob had the boat surveyed, and she passed, with only the issues noted above highlighted.

Bob took delivery and over the next three years ploughed every dollar he could afford and most of his weekends into the boat. Bob painted and varnished, cleaned, replaced and repaired. As Bob laboured on his boat he learned some hard truths….

All in all, Bob spent another US$50,000, not including annual maintenance costs, over that three years. But even so, he was happy. After all he now had a great 24,000-pound, 45-foot cruising boat for just US$115,000.
But soon, despite Bob’s meticulous preparations, things on his boat started to get unpleasant and a bit scary too:…

 Over the years the boat had done maybe 20,000 miles, not really that much, but enough that the hull had softened, and it started to work. On port tack the doors to the aft and forward cabins could not be closed.
 Ominous creaking came from the bulkheads.
 Every port and and hatch on the boat leaked water as the working of the hull spewed out the fifteen year old sealants.
 The rig started to loosen ominously.

When they got back to Bermuda, Bob decided to fix his boat right. Over the next three years he ploughed almost every weekend and most of his vacations into:

 Removing most of the interior and redoing the tabbing of the bulkheads into the hull, which had failed in many places due to the secondary bonding problems that many fiberglass boats experience, even those from reputable builders. The surveyor had missed this problem. But then again, how many surveys include removing half the interior to access all the bulkhead to hull joints?
 Reinforcing the two main bulkheads with laminated ring frames.
 Rebuilding the mast step that was slowly compressing. (That was why the rig got looser.) The surveyor had missed this too, but in his defense, it was impossible to see the problem without un-stepping the mast and removing a water tank.
 Removing every single fitting, port and hatch and re-bedding them in new sealant.

After all that, the by then 20 year old gel coat looked tired, so Bob had the boat completely repainted from stem to stern.

And most of that great gear he got when he bought the boat was now obsolete and/or broken. So Bob re-equipped the boat with the best: all new electronics, windlass (she had never had one), anchors, batteries, up to date charging system, and on and on the list went.

All in all, even though he did all the work, except the painting, himself, he spent another US$50,000. He now had some US$165,000 in the boat, not to speak of some 5000 hours of his own time. (An average of ten hours every weekend for six years and at least four two week vacations.)

“Oh well”, said Bob, “it was a life experience, and now at last I have a great offshore cruising boat”.…

As he and his wife lived on the boat they realized that she really was not a very good cruising boat. The interior, designed for a big crew, was awkward for just two. Ditto the deck layout and cockpit. They met other cruisers in more modern purpose built cruising boats and envied them.

Still More To Do
…deep in his heart of hearts Bob knew that there was still more that needed doing to his boat, much more:
 The rudder had never been off the boat in over 20 years. Ominous drips of rusty water from the rudder blade, when the boat was hauled, told a tale of deterioration of the stainless steel web that would require a new rudder to fix right.
 The external lead keel was attached with bronze keel bolts. What condition were they in? The only way to find out was to drop the keel. Not fun because the bolt heads were under the water tanks and engine. And if the bolts were corroded, replacement would be a nightmare.
 The stainless steel chain plates were inaccessible behind cabinetry and encapsulated in fiberglass. Bob knew that water had leaked into that area for years. No question, they should come out and be replaced.

At the end of the six month cruise, Bob sold the boat for $85,000, taking a $80,000 loss, and bought a four year old purpose built cruising boat."


That's in accordance with what I think. Of course you can buy an old boat, live on the boat, sail only occasionally and locally only when the weather is fine and there are no much wind hoping that that all old things that should have be substituted in its time stay in place. An old boat would probably be alright for those that use the boat that way and represent a good deal.

But for the ones that want an offshore boat for really sail offshore with all weather, if they want, as safety demands, a seaworthy and safe boat, a big bill and lot of work is waiting for them if they are buying a 20 or 30 years old boat.

The funny thing is that many of the guys that buy old boats that once were seaworthy boats like to piss guys that buy brand new boats about the seaworthiness of their new boats

For them a 20 years old standing rigging, 25 or 30 year's old chain-plates are perfectly alright because they carefully check them out visually.

Regards

Paulo
I would say that the captain of this boat got taken twice by a not so forthright seller and a surveryor that didn't do his job! spending all that money so soon those problems were there from the start. I have a '68 Bristol 27 that is a great little boat I've had 2 survey's since I have had her and not turned up anything but replace the standing rigging and add second bilge pump and a manual bilge pump. just got everything ship shape and now I just jumped into a '67 Bristol 35 that needs work, you have to look at it as it's a hole in the water you sink money into, it holds true even for a new boat. I wonder what is the ratio for boats under 10 years old versus 10 years and older, me thinks that the older boats far outnumber the new boat boats. I know I don't have a couple hundred grand laying around to invest in a new or newer boat. I do have the money to find the "deal" and deal with headaches of getting her ship shape and putting myself into the new addition of the family. "Not saying just......just saying"
10-18-2012 08:52 PM
SloopJonB
Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
:But you can buy one of them with 5 years for 135 000 euros. Regards Paulo
No I can't.
10-18-2012 08:11 PM
PCP
Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Paulo, lots of gorgeous boats and only one running shoe (#7) in the bunch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
Now can you do the same with boats that don't start around 1/2 $million? I think most, if not all the comments here are generally referring to the new boats that we mere mortals can even THINK about actually owning.

There are several boats there that have a basic price of around 200 000 euros. With 20% IVA and extras they will cost less than 300 000 euros. I guess that is less than half a million?

But you are right, with the exception of the Beneteau, the Bavaria and the RM they are boats from the upper segment, what we call here Luxury cruisers.

But you can buy one of them with 5 years for 135 000 euros

Regards

Paulo
10-18-2012 07:57 PM
SloopJonB
Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Paulo, lots of gorgeous boats and only one running shoe (#7) in the bunch.

Now can you do the same with boats that don't start around 1/2 $million? I think most, if not all the comments here are generally referring to the new boats that we mere mortals can even THINK about actually owning.
10-18-2012 07:45 PM
SloopJonB
Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingNwing View Post
Honestly? Walked around the Annapolis boat show earlier this month, looked at most of the new boats and *didn't* get boat lust. The only ones that did inspire lust were the Gozzard and to a lesser extent the Tartan ... and they're kind of built along classic lines.
+1.

I remember back in the golden age (70's & 80's) there was little I didn't lust after at boat shows. I remember seeing a Bristol Channel Cutter, all teak & bronze pirate fantasies, right beside a C&C 38 that looked like it was doing 10 knots at the dock. Now it's just the opposite. I have to say that, stylingwise at least, things are improving - the Jeanneau "cats eye" styling I alluded to in an earlier post is very nice. Sugar scoops are WAY better than crappy little transom ladders but they don't need to be so wide.

Boats seem to be on an upward trend right now to my eyes but I prefer my own boats to be a lot simpler - I don't want all the comforts of home, I want a different, simpler experience when I'm aboard. Of course I don't spend extended periods aboard - I'd probably think differently if I did.
10-18-2012 07:42 PM
Classic30
Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Each case his a case, lives are different and we are only talking about what is the best investment. The time and your own work hours are part of the investment.
As I see it, this entire "new vs. old" argument with boats is no different when applied to houses, cars, airplanes, or even furniture..

e.g. Someone might buy an old house because (a) it's cheaper and (b) it's got more character than a new place, even though they know it'll need more work. That doesn't make it a bad choice.

For this reason, this discussion is really quite pointless...
10-18-2012 07:38 PM
wingNwing
Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

No way Chef, you told me you had the dibs on the Gozzard that was my first choice!!!!

(Re the apparent contradiction between my saying that nothing at the boat show gave me boat lust except the Gozzard, and my being willing to take two of the boats Paulo posted: the ones he's showing are considerably larger than the ones I was looking at)
10-18-2012 07:29 PM
chef2sail
Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

I have dibs on the HR...I would taken an older one also:laugh er
10-18-2012 07:21 PM
wingNwing
Re: New(er) vs. Old(er)

Interesting collection; well done Paulo. I'll take the red one or the H-R.
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