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HMS Bounty in trouble...

278K views 2K replies 105 participants last post by  PCP 
#1 ·
The HMS Bounty is a tall ship that was built in Nova Scotia in 1961 for the MGM movie "Mutiny on the Bounty", starring Marlon Brando...she appears to be in trouble from Hurricane Sandy.

From ABC News:
2:55 AM EDT: Coast Guard spokesman David Weydert tells ABC News, "The Coast Guard received notification that the sailing vessel HMS Bounty was in distress. We responded by sending out a C-130 aircraft and we're currently monitoring the situation."

And the ships website confirms she is in harms way:
TallShipBounty.org

I sure hope this story has a happy ending.
 
#275 · (Edited)
I would invite once again suggestions from those who fail to grasp that, who ELSE besides the captain might bear responsibility for this tragedy? And, what possible reason might have compelled him to sail into the teeth of such weather in such a vessel to meet the schedule of being in St Pete by Nov 9?-Jon Eisenberg
No one has failed to grasp that the captain does bear some responsibility for this including me. What some of us have been saying is that there may be other factors involved, facts which we have not been aprised of yet. This is the purpose of an investigation. No doubt he had a hand in this, no doubt the captain has responsibilities. NO ONE has said otherwise.

So what have you really learned from this...course that was the stated purpose of so many for this posting, a teaching experience. You obviously dont need or want to investigate this any further cause you have your root cause.

Is the lesson you dont sail into a hurricane........duhhhhhhhhhh what else. Hatteras and the GS are a dangerous place....duhhhhhhhhh.
 
#281 ·
No one has failed to grasp that the captain does bear some responsibility for this including me. What some of us have been saying is that there may be other factors involved, facts which we have not been aprised of yet. This is the purpose of an investigation. No doubt he had a hand in this, no doubt the captain has responsibilities. NO ONE has said otherwise.

So what have you really learned from this...course that was the stated purpose of so many for this posting, a teaching experience. You obviously dont need or want to investigate this any further cause you have your root cause.

Is the lesson you dont sail into a hurricane........duhhhhhhhhhh what else. Hatteras and the GS are a dangerous place....duhhhhhhhhh.
I got two different lessons:
1) Don't leave port and sail into a hurricane on a leaking wooden boat with few backup systems.
2) Don't sail with a captain that brags about sailing into hurricanes. (video interview)

Of course the investigation is critical to know all the facts BUT we do know one thing, if the captain had not chose to set sail in those known conditions, 2 lives wouldn't have been lost.
 
#282 ·
Hey look, this is nowt but an internet forum where a bunch of people with an interest in matters maritime get together to discuss common interests. As far as I am aware the musings of us SailNetters is unlikely to have any effect whatsoever on the official investigation.

Pondering that the ship may have been unsound , that the skipper showed some signs of irresponsibility and/or that the ship should not have been out in that weather are all quite valid points on a discussion board.

Some of the comments in this thread have bordered on abuse and quite simply if it continues and/or gets worse then the blue pencil is poised and ready for action. This is not PRWG so please , keep it civil.
 
#284 ·
Oh my gosh.....Paulo Paulo Paulo.....One generator not operational does not mean the pumps were half operational. As I read through these posts ( I too am interested in this events ) I detect so much misinterpreted info & increasing venom. I'm sure this is going to get picked apart just seeing this thread & thinking of all the attorneys across America that would love a piece of this pie. You know....the Captain of the Titanic was sound asleep in his cabin when it hit that Iceberg, but make no mistake......he hit that iceberg. ( Just my contribution to inane & irrelevant comments on this thread ).....lol
 
#286 ·
Do you have seen that I have said "half" operational? This means that the system was composed by two pumps and two generators in a system that will provides back up if one of the generators or one of the pups get out of order. Well, I should said the system was half operational, not the pumps...big deal.

Evidently if you have only one generator operational you have no redundance and no back up if that generator gets out of order...and that's exactly what happened. Is this not clear to you:rolleyes:

regards

Paulo
 
#288 ·
Interesting ... several people who met the captain personally say that based on what they learned of him, there must be more to this story, and they will wait to learn what the Coast Guard has to say. People who never met him, DEMAND the right in this internet forum to state their opinions of unmitigated blame ... RIGHT NOW.
 
#290 · (Edited)
OK, I'll try one more time...

I'll accept that that the possibility exists that there may have been factors that compelled the master of the BOUNTY to depart New London when she did, and attempt to shoot the gap between Hatteras and the eye of a storm 800+ miles in diameter, featuring the lowest barometric pressure ever recorded north of Cape Hatteras...

Once again, can anyone here even IMAGINE, or suggest any likely scenarios/factors that would compel the skipper to take such a risk, or make such a decision appear even remotely prudent, or seamanlike?

Please, feel free to use your imaginations... (grin) I'm really curious to hear what some might feel may have justified such a departure, in such a vessel, in such circumstances...
 
#289 ·
Smurphny - While you pick nits, I'll just wait for the investigation report.
 
#291 ·
It's really simple, Jon. I know that I don't know everything. Therefore, I'm willing to wait.

What's your hurry?
 
#296 ·
Well, I certainly admire and respect the "evenhandedness" displayed here by yourself - and others - here… (grin)

But, c'mon, none of us here will be part of any official investigation, or be responsible for rendering some ultimate "verdict" regarding this incident… We're all just sailors BS-ing around this cyber sailor's bar, speculating about a very public tragedy… I happen to hold some fairly strong opinions about one of my life's greatest passions, and I'm a sailing forum gasbag to boot, so I'm sorry… But for me to sit back and simply say that I will offer no personal OPINION whatsoever on this tragedy until "the investigation is complete", well, that ain't gonna happen… What's the point of ever posting ANYTHING here, if those are gonna be the ground rules? (grin)

What's the point of discussing any of these incidents, if that is the case… Any word on when the final results of the "investigation" of the RULE 62 tragedy is gonna be forthcoming, for example?

Look, for me to withhold any personal opinion or judgment on this master's actions would be to deny giving voice to everything I've learned over a lifetime of sailing, and 35 years of delivering yachts … I'll freely admit I've still a great deal to learn, and am willing to be educated on this one… Hence, my call for plausible reasons for a course of action I have repeatedly branded "unfathomable"… Perhaps I'm simply a victim of my paucity of imagination, that's why I'm asking for some help in conjuring up some way in which this ill-fated voyage made ANY sense whatsoever…

Frankly, I think I'm being somewhat charitable, here… My opinions on the lunacy of the BOUNTY setting sail when she did is based solely on the facts as we currently know them… Namely, the time and place of departure, the forecast at that time, the unsuitability of a vessel like the BOUNTY for riding out or avoiding a hurricane at sea, the course steered directly into the path of such a monster storm, and so on… As stated earlier, I'm willing to discount that damning YouTube interview with that moron in Belfast, and the nonsensical statements made by Trowbridge regarding "chasing hurricanes", "no such thing as bad weather", or there being little distinction between standing on deck at dockside, and in the midst of 70' seas…

Again, I appreciate the apparent unwillingness on the part of yourself and others to render any judgment until "all the facts are in"… But by the same token, I'm comfortable with the opinions I've expressed here, and I resent the implication that always arises in these discussions that anyone doing so might be little more than an "armchair sailor"…

Few people alive, for example, likely know more about passagemaking under sail in the Western North Atlantic than a guy like Don Street… Does anyone believe that if he were dragged into this discussion, his response would be of the tepid sort, "Well, I think I'd rather wait until 'all the facts are known' about the final voyage of the BOUNTY, before commenting…" ? (grin)
 
#297 ·
I don't question your (or anyone else's) right to bloviate all you want about this incident. Go ahead, use your "imagination."

My reason for choosing not to get involved is that I have a real life to live, and prefer not to waste my time speculating when I suspect that the facts may render 90% of the speculation moot. I'm willing to wait.

But go ahead and lob your hand grenades all you want. It's hard for a dead man to sue for defamation. ;)

It goes without saying that the captain bears ultimate responsibility for the safety of his crew. And given that two died under his watch, it is clear that he shoulders a significant load of blame, no matter what other facts may emerge. But to me it seems unnecessary to pile on any further, especially given that he has already been subjected to the death penalty for his actions.
 
#298 ·
My reason for choosing not to get involved is that I have a real life to live, and prefer not to waste my time speculating when I suspect that the facts may render 90% of the speculation moot. I'm willing to wait.
Fair enough... I'll be eagerly anticipating the emergence of the mitigating "facts" that will render "moot" the sailing of a pig like the BOUNTY into the teeth of the largest, most destructive hurricane ever to hit North America, and meeting it directly abeam of the most treacherous lee shore in the Western North Atlantic, and in opposition to one of the most powerful ocean currents on the planet...
 
#302 ·
Good example of a moot point. The helicopter rescue was successful. Everyone on the life rafts was rescued. It's possible the outcome would have been the same in other conditions.
 
#303 ·
First, if you are going to call for a rescue, you have a responsibility to consider the conditions you might call them in.

I'm also finding most of the defense of the Capt to be more personal than rational. There has been major media that has been as damning as anyone here. I'll ask if those in defense of waiting for the investigation had lost a daughter, with little to no experience sailing this vessel and, therefore, reliant on the Captain's judgement, whether you would remain as patient.

Sure, there has been some verbal lynching here, but mostly its been an expression of opinion. That's everyone's right and this is not a court of law. There is no verdict, even from that express one in anger. Understandable anger, IMO. Its a discussion.

Even if the Capt were forced to take the boat out to sea, he put his job ahead of others lives. I just can't think of a situation where he can come out clean on this one, but I'm listening. If you agree that he is mostly likely at fault, I'm not fully understanding the pushback on talking about it.
 
#305 ·
I not defending, just pointing out that speculation may be fruitless. Go at it if you have time to spare.
 
#306 ·
Not sure if your post is in response to mine, but...

Actually, I believe I've attempted to avoid pure "speculation" in the course of this thread. Based somewhat on the evidence provided by the interview with Trowbirdge in Belfast, I have my own "hunch" on what might have informed his decision to sail, but I've kept that to myself, and haven't offered it here... Sure, I have invited speculation on the part of those who appear to believe there may have been some good reason(s) for this voyage, simply because I'm completely at a loss to come up with any on my own...

I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree that it is not "speculation" to point out that to have deliberately placed his crew in the Gulf Stream, between Cape Hatteras and a storm as powerful as Sandy, aboard a wooden ship a half-century old, was a VERY risky and unwise maneuver... Generations of Atlantic sailors would likely agree, perhaps the Bay of Biscay is the only other place in the North Atlantic basin which might be as treacherous in such weather...

I've spoken to numerous friends and professional acquaintances about this tragedy, and to a person, EVERY one's initial reaction has been the same: Namely, "WTF were they doing out there in the first place???"

The burden of proof seems raised absurdly high, if it is not by now considered a reasonably well established FACT among sailors that the BOUNTY'S position would be a very, VERY bad place to be in such conditions... And, it was most certainly no ACCIDENT that she was there, at that time...
 
#311 ·
I'm also finding most of the defense of the Capt to be more personal than rational-Minnewaska
Havent seen anyone defend the Captain including me. That seems to be the misconception about what those who think hes already guilty and those who think there are other factors invilved also and want to know why a sane mane who had realatively good credentials would do it.
 
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#312 ·
Does anyone know of any other captains who set sail toward hurricane Sandy at the approximate time Captain Walbridge did?-
JulieMor

At least 25 vessels of the US Navy from Norfolk

I know why and I know they didnt go out in wooden sailing vessels either so dont go in that direction. Just answering her question.
 
#314 ·
sex being a close second- smurphy
:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher:laugher

I have seen captains run vessels aground for sex....but sailing to hurricane? Come to think of it the crews in acient days sailed their ships on the rocks for the Sirens
 
#316 · (Edited)
Certainly. The bright one like Ulysses or Odysseus just tied themselves to the mast to resist their calling the stupid ones sunk. :D

...
I'm kind of expecting stricter examinations of the tall ships coming from this tragedy, from number of crew and their experience to the ability of the ship and crew to handle any situations that may arise.

...
That is one of the problems. They can't.

I think Picton Castle is in another class (sail training vessels) while the Bounty and many others are in a special class created to make the live easy to these boats. In fact they are in a similar class to charter boats with six passengers but exceptionally extended to 12 passengers. These are boats that are excepted from serious structural inspections. They only see if the papers are in order, if the boat has the the security items regarding safety and so on.

.. The ship's last reported deficiency came in May 2011, when an inspector noted that the ship had some old nautical maps and faulty documentation after "substantial" tonnage alternations. Those problems were reported to have been corrected as of September.

Of course they did not inspect those tonnage alterations but only the papers regarding them. They can't, the Bounty is classified under the subchapter C uninspected 12 passenger vessel.

A member of this forum, an Ex Coat Guard said in what regards the class of uninspected vessels:

Back when I was in the Coast Guard learning to be a marine inspector long ago, the saying I heard about uninspected vessels (referring to the rule that more than six paying passengers required a Certificate of Inspection):

"You can drown six---you can't drown seven"

I suppose you could change this to 12 and 13 as the circumstances may warrant.


I await the Board of Investigation with interest. In my experience the Coast Guard is not unwilling to criticize themselves when warranted ...
Regards

Paulo
 
#318 ·
I had posted this before, but all that think it would be ok to sail where a hurricane is lurking please provide an answer:

The things that don't make sense to me is the Capt states in the video he likes to chase hurricanes. But then he states the ship normally sails when at sea at 4-5 knots, and the ship can only go sideways to the wind or downwind. Does not sound like the ship could hove to. The Capt also states the diesel auxillaries are underpowered for the ship and are only used when coming into port.

So this Capt wants to chase hurricanes in a ship that is limited to sailing only 90 degrees off the wind (and with lee way probably more like 100 degrees or more), and the ships diesels were not strong enough to power it in any kind of stong wind or high sea condition.

How can the Capt stay in his perferred SW quadarant?

Regards
 
#319 ·
I thought this was interesting (Blog from LA article). Definitely a case where life is stranger than fiction:

From:
HMS Bounty sinking to be investigated; victim was 'very concerned' - latimes.com

Bonnie Ember at 3:19 PM November 03, 2012
I am a Lover of Tall Ships, & the Shipwreck of the HMS Bounty ii & crew member & Capt., is a story that did not have to end in Davy Jones Locker.

Now, for the Paranormal.

Claudene Christian, asked the Captain if he was sure that he wanted her onboard, being a desendent of Fletcher Christian, the Leader of the Mutiny & the Captain who scuttled the ship.

Before she sailed out into the Tail of the Hurricane, she called her parents & told them that she loved them incase something happened.

There were 16 crew onbaord the HMS Bounty ii. (Many crew members decided not to go, or it was a small crew.)

14 survived.

The HMS Pandoro, was sent to Tahiti, to capture the Mutineers. They found 16 Mutineers & captured them.

2 Died, before they left the island.

The Pandora, sank in a Hurricane.

The HMS Bounty II, carrying a descendent of the original ship, sinks & kills her & the Captain.

I am a fan of Christian Fletcher, but could this ship be a Ghost Ship, & could this shipwreck be

Bligh's revenge?

"The Floggings will continue, until Morale improves." Capt. Bligh

You can see some great footage of the Tall ships on my Film Trailers:

Carnivale di Venezia & Tahiti on

youtube under the names:

bonnieember & alphaember

RIP
 
#464 ·
#320 · (Edited)
i found it most interesting and easy to follow on bounty's ownpages, website and fb--everything was told and retold to the readers--th folks who need to re - scenario everything would have known what really happened in the first page here--i believe i posted the info an where to find it.....
god rest the dead.
also some info that would have been known was the schedule to which bounty was sailing-- they were to have been in st petes for some freak of a ceremony involving the muni pier and bounty---but, no, you guys didnt bother to read these pages, so even now, instead of saying rip souls and boat, which also had a soul, folks are still rehashing all that which was spelled out in bountys own pages... is actually a sad situation.
folks died and only things can be said are denegrations and fake scenarios of the events leading to the tragedy.
and you guys are not the only ones doing same.
i am not supporting the stuff done--IS OVER--THEY DIED--RIP-- i am merely lost in wonderment about the nature of humanity



and--the weird stuff---(thee to outer limits playing in background)--direct descendant of fletcher christian, an the 20 yr master of the well made replica bounty, and ship , all go gone in same day--
 
#321 ·
At this point I would expect the governing authorities to take whatever measures they feel necessary to prevent a tragedy like this from happening again. If that meant they re-classified a boat or changed the rules and doing so would result in a reduction in future loss of life, I would think they should do that. IMHO.

Because of my personal experiences, I have an immense respect for the forces of Mother Nature. I would never, under any circumstances, leave port if I thought there was even a remote chance of meeting up with a hurricane. Never.

Now, I have no idea if the Coast Guard would ever consider creating certain requirements that would call for Coast Guard clearance before setting sail because of this incident. But I can see insurance companies having an impact by voiding policies where they determined a captain or owner of a vessel put the ship and crew in jeopardy.

In the case of the Bounty, there has been sufficient testimony thus far (though not under oath) and evidence to support the belief of many that the ship was less than seaworthy and that the crew was too short-handed and too inexperienced to handle serious weather and therefore the captain should never have set sail. For me, all I had to know was Hurricane Sandy was out there waiting to swallow up anyone willing to take her on.

My girlfriend is in insurance and she said if the insurance company was aware of the Walbridge video, they may have cancelled the owner's policy. Also, quite possibly, Walbridge would be denied life insurance if he tried to apply. The Coast Guard may do nothing beyond the investigation but failure to obtain insurance can motivate people to do things they don't want to do. :rolleyes:

In my years in construction I found financial motivation be much more powerful than heartfelt concern when it came to instituting safety measures on the jobsite. Maybe this incident will have that kind of impact or maybe it will all be forgotten until it happens again.
 
#322 ·
So that we may appease those they take offense to our "jump to conclusions" opinions and findings, I suggest you add the following disclaimer to your posts.

"Initial preliminary findings suggest the cause of the Bounty's sinking (and loss of life) was due to __________, a final report will be issued once all evidence and testimony has been reviewed and studied."
 
#324 ·
I'm not sure who you're referring to, but speaking for myself, I don't take any offense. You don't need to bother with your proposed disclaimer, because I don't take your speculation seriously enough to need any disclaimer.

I merely choose not to give any credence to Internet rumors and speculation. I'm willing to wait for real facts to emerge. Since the USCG has announced that they will investigate, I'm confident that a useful report will eventually come out, and it will be worth waiting for.

At some point I'll get bored enough with your repetitious re-posts of your previous posts, and other circular logic, that I'll just stop reading this topic and move on.

I have the opposite view of some of you. It seems you're determined to stir up controversy by posting speculation. Then when some of us refuse to go along, you get offended and try to kick the hornets nest even harder.

I've seen (and participated in) enough safety investigations to realize that new, previously undisclosed facts often lead to new and unexpected interpretations of events. And if not, so be it. I'm just willing to wait to see what the real truth is.
 
#326 ·
Some more information:

Walbridge told a small group that the Bounty would be leaving for St. Petersburg, Fla., that night instead of the next morning. He wanted to get a jump on a massive weather system coming from the south that forecasters were calling "historic" and that one already had dubbed "Frankenstorm."

The National Weather Service's marine forecast for the area described the coming confluence of systems: "HIGH PRESSURE MOVES OFFSHORE ON FRIDAY AS A COLD FRONT APPROACHES FROM THE WEST. A COASTAL STORM ASSOCIATED WITH TROPICAL CYCLONE SANDY MAY IMPACT THE AREA LATE IN THE WEEKEND AND INTO EARLY NEXT WEEK."

Walbridge formed a circle with his thumbs and index fingers, and told listeners to look at his right thumb. It represented the southeastern section of the hurricane.

"He said he wanted to get to the southeast quadrant and ride the storm out," said New London Dockmaster Barbara Neff. No one raised objections.

....

While people may have been reluctant to question Walbridge's plan, that's not true today. A debate is raging about his decision to go to sea with a monster storm looming. At least three tall-sailing-ship captains have said they would not have tried that passage with Sandy barreling northward.

....

"Rest assured that the Bounty is safe and in very capable hands. Bounty's current voyage is a calculated decision … NOT AT ALL … irresponsible or with a lack of foresight as some have suggested. The fact of the matter is … A SHIP IS SAFER AT SEA THAN IN PORT!"

....

The first sentence of his biography on the Bounty's website says: "According to Captain Robin Walbridge, Bounty has no boundaries. As her captain, he is well known for his ability and desire to take Bounty to places that no ship has gone before."

.....

Bounty's ill-fated trip in face of hurricane scrutinized | HamptonRoads.com | PilotOnline.com
 
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