SailNet Community - Reply to Topic

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > sailcloth: laminated or woven?
 Not a Member? 


Thread: sailcloth: laminated or woven? Reply to Thread
Title:
  

By choosing to post the reply below you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Topic Review (Newest First)
11-09-2012 01:24 PM
RichH
Re: sailcloth: laminated or woven?

As I remember from long ago the ASTM test method dictates a cyclical 90 degree bend with zero applied tension ... as the standard. If you assume other bend angles, you'll have to set up your fold-fatigue testing machine to the typical fold that you desire.
All the flexural fold fatigue testing 'relates' to the standard ASTM method, just like all physical testing to determine material properties; if you need to evaluate outside of those parameters ... set up your own testing machine, etc. to your actual or assumed conditions.
Guesses and assumptions dont count.
11-09-2012 12:16 PM
overbored
Re: sailcloth: laminated or woven?

Can you define folded. and how does that relate to a Kevlar sail. the ones I have that contain Kevlar are holding up well. the laminating film is what breaks down an then the Kevlar looses it support. as for the carbon sails they don't last long at all. I do have several yards of carbon rags stored in the garage.
11-09-2012 11:41 AM
RichH
Re: sailcloth: laminated or woven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by overbored View Post
I would like to see a kevlar fiber snap from folding or bending. not going to happen. carbon fibers yes but not kevlar.
Kevlar RAPIDLY loses its tensile strength when repetitively folded. Standard degradation value is 47-50%% loss of tensile strength per 1000 fold cycles with 'most' of the strength loss occurring 'early' in the cycles, less degradation at the the end of the cycles.
11-08-2012 05:51 PM
capta
Re: sailcloth: laminated or woven?

Our Ulmer/UK main had a lot of mold between the layers which no sailmaker would even attempt to clean long before it began delaminating.
Our boat is NOT a racer, cannot in anyway be considered a racing machine and Ulmer/UK should never have made this kind of sail for a heavy displacement cruising boat.
My point is, it seems many sailmakers today are nothing more than con-men, convincing owners to purchase sails at exorbitant prices made of either untried, inferior or the wrong material just to line their pockets.
I miss sailmakers like Peter Sutter of Sausalito and Cranfield of England. Peter would always insist on being aboard when you flew his sail for the first time (maybe it was just an excuse to go sailing...?) and Cranfield who made a Yankee jib for my old gaffer (1909) that took almost 45 minutes to destroy itself in over 100 knots of wind when I had to cut the sheets.
A few years ago we bought a whole suit of sails from UK Sailmakers for an 81 foot schooner and the sailmaker NEVER came to the boat to see their work or see that they fit properly.
At least with the internet, we can find sailors who have had positive experiences with sailmakers and make our purchases from those sailmakers.
11-08-2012 11:38 AM
overbored
Re: sailcloth: laminated or woven?

I would like to see a kevlar fiber snap from folding or bending. not going to happen. carbon fibers yes but not kevlar.
11-08-2012 11:00 AM
PCP
Re: sailcloth: laminated or woven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
PCP,

Those sailmakers were steering you right. they could have talked you into more expensive sails, but were more worried about getting you into the RIGHT sail for your purposes!
The absolute worst thing you can do to a laminate sail is use it outside it's designed wind range. The second worse thing you can do is flog them!

I am curious about this mold issue. Am I to understand that people are getting mold on laminate sails? How is that possible? How can mold grow and stick to mylar?
When I was talking about mold I was talking about tafeta sandwich sails. Both advise me against because the water will will ingress between the layers and will create humidity that results in mold. You are talking about laminated sails, I think someone said that but not me

Regards

Paulo
11-08-2012 10:41 AM
blt2ski
Re: sailcloth: laminated or woven?

I have sails that are any where from 3 to 6 yrs old on my boat. The ONLY sail with mold are the Nor-Lam from North. It seems to be a VERY BIG issue. My Ullman fiberpath 155, Cal 140 do not have mold. Nor did my original dacron main, storm jib or 135 from 85. Nor does my UK tapedrive main.

Frankly, I feel it has something to do with the way North makes, buys the dac/mylar sail cloth. As such, until I know that style of cloth is free of that issue, I am not really wanting to buy cloth of that type. I do know someone that bought a nor-lam genoa last summer, and the north rep said they had worked with the cloth manufacture to stop/slow down the mold issue. So I have a feeling they KNOW about the mold on this type of cloth.

If you do want a durable laminated sail, same cost as dacron, The ullman CAL sail is nice. In reality, I wish I would have gone with a main out of this material vs the string that I got. Reality is, for the OP's puropose, dacron, or the ullman CAL would probably be the best $$ spent. The Cal will roll a bit tighter, handle the same wind range as dacron etc, assuming it has been designed as such. Even some dacron cloth sails will only be designed for say winds to 10-15 knots, ie drifter/reachers. My drifter is 3 oz nylon spin cloth. max wind is 6 knots!

My 02 on the subject.

Marty
11-08-2012 10:27 AM
RichH
Re: sailcloth: laminated or woven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
PCP,

Those sailmakers were steering you right. they could have talked you into more expensive sails, but were more worried about getting you into the RIGHT sail for your purposes!
The absolute worst thing you can do to a laminate sail is use it outside it's designed wind range. The second worse thing you can do is flog them!

I am curious about this mold issue. Am I to understand that people are getting mold on laminate sails? How is that possible? How can mold grow and stick to mylar?
Mold and bacteria can stick to 'anything', and since the materials of sails are 'carbon based' the mold and bacteria under the correct wetted conditions can start using the 'panel joining glues', and the material itself as their nutrient source. Such microorganisms, under the right ambient conditions can use even metals as their nutrient source, as that is how over aeons of time large accumulations of ores were concentrated in single places .... microorganisms EATING and concentrating the metals !!!!!

If one is 'cruising', especially long distance cruising, the use of 'high end' woven dacron is unsurpassed for fatigue, strength, service life, and most importantly - SHAPING under varying windloading conditions. For coastal cruising, then a good 'cruising laminate' - laminate 'center' film covered on each 'side' with a 'taffeta' dacron scrim to protect vs. chafe is probably better, but less shape adjustability and less overall 'service life' ... because the central portion of the laminate is 'film' and the outer layers are porous, there is much less tendency to grow 'mold'.
Especially in super-wet atmospheric conditions on DACRON sails that occasionally become 'moldy' - to prevent such, simply spray on 3M "Mold Guard", works on 'sunbrella' too.
One must remember also too that full laminated sails are designed for specific wind range usage, and not very 'shape' adjustable via applied 'edge tension' .... just the opposite functionality of a high end woven dacron material.
ALL these materials are subject to 'creep' or permanent deformation under continual load .... and as another poster so correctly stated, if you don't release halyard / outhaul, etc. tension when not sailing, youre ultimately going to permanently stretch (permanent 'creep' distortion) the hell out of the luff/foot and that functionally changes the shape on the opposite side; hence, 'blown out' sails - unload the 'edges' when not sailing and you'll keep the designed shape of ANY sail a whole lot longer.
The ONLY real problem with woven dacron sails, especially mainsails is the need for a 3 strand 'boltrope' at the luff. Each time the boltrope is (properly) 'stretched out' to its 'as designed' length and then released (you typically NEED to stretch out a bolt roped sail by an additional 1" for every 10-11ft. of luff length when raising such a sail), the bolt rope ultimately becomes fatter and shorter .... So to compensate and prepare for this 'hysterisis' of the boltrope, have the sailmaker 'store' extra length of bolt rope at the headboard so that when the bolt rope needs 'adjustement' it can be done easily and cheaply - to restore the sail back to OEM length ... just a few $$$ to do so or can be a DIY project if you have a needle palm and sailmakers twine; otherwise without constant (every ~200 hrs.) adjustment of the bolt rope you get a 'baggy', increased draft, hooked up leech mainsail .... and ALL you have to do is 'ease' that boltrope and the sail will correct back to proper 'luff length'. Sailmakers don't like to offer mainsails with 'stored' extra bolt rope at the headboard ... they sell a hell of lot more sails that way.

Also FWIW, for UV covers, Sunbrella has been offering a 'lightweight version' for several years now especially for sail UV covers ... no more need to have all that massive UV cover weight aloft anymore.
11-07-2012 11:54 PM
SchockT
Re: sailcloth: laminated or woven?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallard View Post
Laminate or dacron, removing a genoa from a furler at the end of the day and flaking it on the deck is a lot of work, especially if you are single-handed. There's a reason you have a UV cover attached-- so you can self-store it on the furler.

It is particularly inconvenient when your sails are wet. Where do you put them and when do you dry them out? You certainly don't want to put them on your vee berth cushions, especially if they've picked up salt.
Well I admit that I will leave my sail on the furling until a dry day if it is wet. You are right, nobody wants to put a wet sail inside their boat if they can help it! As for it being a lot of work, I guess it depends on the size of the boat, but I can have my sail down and flaked in less than 15 min by myself.

Even with UV guard the sail is not protected from everything. People who leave their sails on the furling likely leave the halyard tension on as well. In wet weather, the sail will get soaked, and then stay wet. In my part of the world in winter the UV guard grows green algae, and the wet sail inside gets mildew. When storms hit it is not uncommon to see leeches of furled headsails flogging, and sometimes even the whole sail comes unfurled.

I guess it all depends on climate, and how often you are going out sailing, but I have seen some pretty sad sails that probably haven't come off the furling in years!
11-07-2012 11:43 PM
SchockT
Re: sailcloth: laminated or woven?

PCP,

Those sailmakers were steering you right. they could have talked you into more expensive sails, but were more worried about getting you into the RIGHT sail for your purposes!
The absolute worst thing you can do to a laminate sail is use it outside it's designed wind range. The second worse thing you can do is flog them!

I am curious about this mold issue. Am I to understand that people are getting mold on laminate sails? How is that possible? How can mold grow and stick to mylar?
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:52 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.