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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy
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Topic Review (Newest First)
11-09-2012 11:32 AM
PCP
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolatom View Post
Paulo, with all respect I think we're going over old ground here.
I don't know what you mean by old ground but it was not me that has raised that possibility. In what regards that (irrationality and cult) the reading of this article may shed some light over what I am trying to say, not as a fact but as a possibility:

"Thin Line Between Religions and Cults"

On Faith Panelists Blog: Thin Line Between Religions and Cults - Brad Hirschfield

I am not talking about a religious cult but about a personality cult (that is also irrational) and an irrational believe in Bounty's abilities and capacities. (I am not shouting to you, just want to make clear this is the main point)

Any irrational view in what regards seamanship is a very dangerous thing.

But off course you can have another opinion

Regards

Paulo
11-09-2012 11:31 AM
JulieMor
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

I find myself being somewhat emotionally invested with what I've read about Claudine Christian. At some time in almost all of our lives we hit that point when we just want to get away, take off somewhere, and leave all the insanity behind. When we read about someone doing that, we want to hear about how they got away from the rat race and found paradise. I've thought about that many times in my life and it always involves sailing in the tropics.

So when the adventurer soul listens to his or her heart and seeks out that personal paradise, it becomes all the more tragic when that dream ends in tragedy. We all want to die happy and fulfilled. It's tough to accept that's not always the way we leave this earth. And maybe that's why it's so hard to let go of this tragedy.
11-09-2012 11:17 AM
nolatom
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Paulo, with all respect I think we're going over old ground here.
11-09-2012 11:04 AM
PCP
Re: The cult of the Bounty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JulieMor View Post
I spent a week on the boat with Leo Ryan, the congressman slain in Jonestown, shortly before the event. He was a classmate of my dad's and came in for a visit. He was an avid sailor.

... As I listened I couldn't help but think of other cult leaders and the stories from the families of how these people they knew so well uncharacteristically lost their ability to think for themselves.

When I read about Claudene Christian and how she had just been through a divorce and felt so lost and just needed to get away, the first thing that struck me was how vulnerable she was to being preyed upon. ...

I have absolutely no idea what kind of relationship the captain had with the crew but it seems all the crew had complete, unquestionable faith in their captain. One said in an interview he had been in two previous hurricanes. Whether Walbridge sought them out or they just happened to be at sea and it was unavoidable, I don't know. It just struck me as unusual to have been through so many hurricanes. The cult theory is certainly not out of the realm of possibility.

When I saw this I just froze. How can someone say this:


"Claudine Christian was one of the Bounty's newest crew members, and was already part of the ship's family.
She was having the most fun ever on the best ride ever. She was so happy," Doug Faunt said.
Christian's last text to her mother read, "If I do go down with the ship & the worst happens… just know that I am truly genuinely happy!!""


Page 2: HMS Bounty Survivors: Crew of Ship Sunk During Hurricane Sandy Speak of Lost Shipmates - ABC News


This seems to me quite crazy and even if I don't think that cult analogy is comparable in all aspects it seems to me that it has some similarities: Their trust and faith on their Captain are not rational face to facing an hurricane in an old XVII wooden ship.

It is not normal the blind and acceptance of a decision that obviously imply some life risks to them without at least some questions:


“ I just don’t know that anyone would have questioned him"...Walbridge formed a circle with his thumbs and index fingers, and told listeners to look at his right thumb. It represented the southeastern section of the hurricane.
"He said he wanted to get to the southeast quadrant and ride the storm out,” said New London Dockmaster Barbara Neff. No one raised objections.

He was the kind of guy you felt very comfortable with as a leader...If I’d been in New London and he said, ‘We’re going to do this. We’re going to sea.’ I would have been with him.

Debate rages about Bounty captain's decision to set sail | The Chronicle Herald



Who in his right state of mind would believe in this ********:


The first sentence of his biography on the Bounty’s website says: “According to Captain Robin Walbridge, Bounty has no boundaries."

Regards

Paulo
11-09-2012 10:57 AM
chef2sail
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

JulieMor

I read that too. It really became a major part of his life.

I think that anything you have such a long commitment to and invest in emotionally will have that effect on you. Thats human nature.

I have owned two restaurants in my life which I sold eventually for profit. One i worked many years in and started it with one partner eventually buying him out. When I sold it I really wrestled emotionally with it as it was my passion and life for so many years. I used to drive by it all the time to see how it was doing and as time passed only reatin the fond memeories of it.

When you are passionate about something, like sailing how can you not sometimes not get emotionally attached. I am currently looking to buy a different boat for the last phase of our life which will primarily be cruising. I have owned Haleakula for many years and my wife and I have many memories on her of places we have traveled and people we have met. Even now I kn ow when I finally find that baot...the one I will buy selling our "baby" will be traumatic in an emotional sense. Why else will I want to try and make sure she goes to a good owner who will take care of her. Ill bet Chrisncate felt similar when they sold heron>

dave
11-09-2012 10:47 AM
JulieMor
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

There's a pretty good article I just read about a man who crewed on the Bounty for the original movie. He was 19 at the time. Today he is 71.

While reading it I thought how emotions become such a part of those who go to sea. It's just you, your shipmates and Mother Nature. It's easy to become so emotionally invested in your shipmates and the ship because your survival depends on both.

Here's the article:
HMS Bounty's loss in Sandy mourned by original crew member - New Brunswick - CBC News
11-09-2012 10:44 AM
steve77
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Originally Posted by chef2sail View Post
Ha to funny. I too am an Eagles fan ( my brother and I have had season tickets for approx 25 years since Franklin Field) surrounded by Redskin and Baltimore Fans ( course Philly fans know about the notorious Redskin fans who are in our divison.

I support the Flyers, 76ers, and yes Penn State where I went to college and played NCAA soccer, I am a South Jersey boy who grew up in Philly suburbs, and moved to Ocean City for 18 years after college. I still listen to the WIP stream every morning on the way to work in DC to get my fix.

dave
Listening to WIP is hard core. I can only take it in small doses, like about 30 seconds at a time. It can be entertaining though. I do however frequent a few sports forums online to get my fix of Philly sports, sad as it is.
11-09-2012 10:35 AM
chef2sail
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Comparing Jonestown to this incident????? You have to be kidding. Shows you how over the top some of the posters on this thread have become. Whats next relaring it to religous fundementalism and the war in Iraq? Al Queada? The OP was merley asking why people feel so emotional or it has stirred up the emotional reaction that it has.

I ask the posters who continue this crazyness ( James wilson and PCP) What is the specific educational value and learning experience for newbies or others to be learned with these obvious unrelateable incidents? What are you proposing specifically the lesson for sailors is here?

It seems to me this is a red herring thrown out to continue this discussion and to continue stirring the pot on this thread.

Dave
11-09-2012 10:29 AM
chef2sail
Re: The Emotions Over The Bounty Tragedy

Quote:
Please! As an Eagles fan who lived in DC for 25 years and only recently escaped to New England, this makes me break out in a cold sweat.-Steve77
Ha to funny. I too am an Eagles fan ( my brother and I have had season tickets for approx 25 years since Franklin Field) surrounded by Redskin and Baltimore Fans ( course Philly fans know about the notorious Redskin fans who are in our divison.

I support the Flyers, 76ers, and yes Penn State where I went to college and played NCAA soccer, I am a South Jersey boy who grew up in Philly suburbs, and moved to Ocean City for 18 years after college. I still listen to the WIP stream every morning on the way to work in DC to get my fix.

dave
11-09-2012 10:17 AM
PCP
Re: The cult of the Bounty?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29 View Post
This devotion to historic wooden ships and maritime traditions seems to easily slip into the realm of the irrational at times. Group behavior and group thinking can lead down the road to tragedy.

Does anyone else see the analogy to Jim Jones and the Jonestown mass suicide, David Koresh or these other groups devoted to a charismatic individual, and the irrational willingness to follow him, regardless of the risks?

The parallels between the group unconditionally supporting the Bounty and a religious cult seem interesting and unavoidable:

"Cults are typically defined by five characteristics (from Brad Hirschfield's Wash. Post article):

First, cults tend to centralize power in the hands of a single individual or small group that is considered beyond questions.

Second, they treat all questions about the group and its beliefs as intolerable challenges to the group's authority and authenticity.

Third, they demean all those who do not share their beliefs and sow fear and mistrust amongst their believers about all such people.

Fourth, they typically cut off all or most opportunities for members to interact freely with those outside the group.

And finally, they take revenge upon those who choose to leave the group, in ways which include, cutting them off from all relationships with those who remain inside, confiscation of material goods and even physical harm."

From: On Faith Panelists Blog: Thin Line Between Religions and Cults - Brad Hirschfield

You know, I believe that has to do with what happened on Bounty and the sad thing is that" devotion to historic wooden ships and maritime traditions seems to easily slip into the realm of the irrational at times. Group behavior and group thinking can lead down the road to tragedy." can be easily be taken as hole in what regards all crews of tall historic ships, assuming they are all like the Bounty's Captain and crew.

Fact is that in gCaptain forum I have seen globally professionals making that generalization not only in what regards Crews and Captains but also in what regards Ship conditions and I think that is completely unfair. I know Captains of Tall ships, mostly Portuguese Navy, that with much more seaworthy tall ships would never think in gambling or taking unavoidable risks much less taken their ships deliberately to the proximity of an Hurricane, if they could avoid it. I fear that Bounty's accident and investigation will end up to having prejudicial effects to all tall ships Captains and crews, at least in the US, at least in their credibility as good and prudent sailors.

I guess that it is of the interest of all Tall ship Captains and crews to separate themselves from this behavior and state clearly that they are not like that, that they do not gamble, and have responsible Captains and crews.

That's why so many Tall ship Captains have criticized Bounty's Captain and that also why YukonJack has posted this on another thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by YukonJack View Post
Paulo--- I have been a silent reader for awhile now. I am enjoying all of your conversations. I am a volunteer with the Philadelphia Ship Preservation Guild that now owns the Tall Ship Gazela. I just sailed on her for the first time this past summer from her Home Port in Philadelphia, PA to Newport, RI for a tall ship festival. We do not chase hurricanes and have a very well established sailing guideline. She will NOT sail in certain conditions or if those conditions may be in her path. We will hold at the dock until those conditions are clear even if on a schedule. The mission statement of the guild is to not only pass on the old sailing traditions, but also the old ways of maintaining a wooden ship. We also want to be able to pass her along to future generations, so that they can learn and enjoy her too. She is irreplaceable, as you would know.

I have seen the Bounty, but I was never on her. I only met two crew members once as I was asked to give a below deck tour of Gazela. The gossip is that she had maintence issues. Yes, I did state gossip for all those that may be critical of passing information on unsubtaniated. GOSSIP I SAY !!!!!!!!

....
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