SailNet Community - Reply to Topic

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Gear & Maintenance > Mainsheet Salsa
 Not a Member? 


Thread: Mainsheet Salsa Reply to Thread
Title:
  

By choosing to post the reply below you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Message:
Trackback:
Send Trackbacks to (Separate multiple URLs with spaces) :
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Click here to view the posting rules you are bound to when clicking the
'Submit Reply' button below


Topic Review (Newest First)
11-30-2012 01:38 PM
Stumble
Re: Mainsheet Salsa

Tap,

I have a similar chart for breaking strength, and again amsteel comes out the clear winner on a per price basis. Even though its expensive for its size you get so much extra strength you can almost always down size it at least once from other stuff. And with cover splicing you can get whatever size you need on the working end for ease of use.
11-30-2012 04:43 AM
tap
Re: Mainsheet Salsa

There is a nice line stretch calculator here http://l-36.com/line_stretch.php

It has a number of different types of line and gives you the stretch for the load you have for each one. Wire is very low stretch, more so than amsteel. Helps to see how much a larger or more expensive line changes thing.

Straight Amsteel-blue is the clearly the best in terms of $$ per stretch. Even cheaper lines end up costing more because you need to get a much larger diameter line to have the same stretch.
11-28-2012 06:41 PM
smurphny
Re: Mainsheet Salsa

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Zz,

The discussion was about using it for a mainsail halyard, so you should be using the P dimension which is 35'. Of course you need the tail, but this is very boat dependent, ie where the clutches are, how things are run. For this boat that would mean 70' plus tail.

The length of the headsail halyard is =square root of (I^2+j^2)+I. For the Alberg 35 this would be 42+40=82' plus whatever tail you want.



Smurphy,

You can certainly go with a larger size, but I can't see a point to it. The SK-75 has roughly the same stretch as wire, and while there is some misconception on the Internet about this, there is no appreciable creep in dyneema line when used for halyards. Creep is measured over the course of years, not hours or even days, and takes significant (as a percentage of breaking strength) long term load to even be an issue.

The major issue people see with stretch in dyneema lines is actually their sails stretching, or the line slipping through clutches (this is why the covers are so important), not actual elongation of the line itself.

You're absolutely right. I tend to over-do things like this. 1/4" would be fine and a lot cheaper. The price on Amsteel has really gone up. I don't remember paying nearly as much a couple of years ago when I did the lifelines.
11-28-2012 06:31 PM
smurphny
Re: Mainsheet Salsa

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
I wasn't suggesting salsa for a halyard, sorry for the confusion.

Back to the halyard,
Your I dimension is 40.5' ALBERG 35 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com So to go up the mast and down to the deck once, you need 81'. Call it 82 if you're cleating at the mast and 90 if you're using a mast mount winch and actually want a shackle attached to the other end.

You also need to measure the hypotenuse of a triangle, couple more feet, and if it's blowing, you'll have deflection from the breeze when you're trying to plug in the headsail. Not a straight line = more length. Point is 80' ain't gunna cut it. Not even close, and 90' would also be short imho.

BTW - your mainsail isn't exactly big at 275 sf.
Actually, the measurement is shorter than mast height. The m/m is from top of where shackle attaches to sail to the sheave, which is not quite mast height. The actual dimensions for the halyard are closer to 35' each way.

If you do some research, you'll see that these old design sailboats have very long booms and large mains as compared to the more modern headsail-dependent rigs. Not only do they have long booms but most of the time the sails were roached out to squeeze out the maximum sail area. The large mains actually present a problem with excessive weather helm. I just recut a sail taking out all the roach and then some and shortening the foot so as to have a heavy, less weather helm prone sail. I may shorten the boom eventually.

When I replace the halyard, it'll be 90'+ Wish I had a nice windlass like that!!!

The actual mast measurements for anyone else with an A35, measured on boat:

Deck-mast top-39'-3"
Deck to lowest main track-48"
Deck to halyard winch- 41"
Deck to halyard cleat- 24" or 12"
11-28-2012 06:18 PM
zz4gta
Re: Mainsheet Salsa

The original post was using salsa for a mainSHEET.

For the main halyard, the 35' dimension is a start, but I'm assuming he'll need a knot or a splice at one end to attache to the sail, then wraps around a cleat and a winch if it stops at the mast like this one
70' won't cut it. 82' is pushing it.
I can measure a triangle. I was suggesting he builds a halyard to real life requirements as opposed to I or P measurements.

My mistake on referencing a jib halyard dimension, you're right the main won't need quite as much, but still way more than 70'.
11-28-2012 05:33 PM
Stumble
Re: Mainsheet Salsa

Zz,

The discussion was about using it for a mainsail halyard, so you should be using the P dimension which is 35'. Of course you need the tail, but this is very boat dependent, ie where the clutches are, how things are run. For this boat that would mean 70' plus tail.

The length of the headsail halyard is =square root of (I^2+j^2)+I. For the Alberg 35 this would be 42+40=82' plus whatever tail you want.



Smurphy,

You can certainly go with a larger size, but I can't see a point to it. The SK-75 has roughly the same stretch as wire, and while there is some misconception on the Internet about this, there is no appreciable creep in dyneema line when used for halyards. Creep is measured over the course of years, not hours or even days, and takes significant (as a percentage of breaking strength) long term load to even be an issue.

The major issue people see with stretch in dyneema lines is actually their sails stretching, or the line slipping through clutches (this is why the covers are so important), not actual elongation of the line itself.
11-28-2012 05:18 PM
zz4gta
Re: Mainsheet Salsa

I wasn't suggesting salsa for a halyard, sorry for the confusion.

Back to the halyard,
Your I dimension is 40.5' ALBERG 35 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com So to go up the mast and down to the deck once, you need 81'. Call it 82 if you're cleating at the mast and 90 if you're using a mast mount winch and actually want a shackle attached to the other end.

You also need to measure the hypotenuse of a triangle, couple more feet, and if it's blowing, you'll have deflection from the breeze when you're trying to plug in the headsail. Not a straight line = more length. Point is 80' ain't gunna cut it. Not even close, and 90' would also be short imho.

BTW - your mainsail isn't exactly big at 275 sf.
11-28-2012 12:41 PM
smurphny
Re: Mainsheet Salsa

Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4gta View Post
80' won't go to the top of the mast and back down to the deck. I buy 80' of halyard for my 25 footer.

You'll need 55-60' of amsteel, then just splice an empty cover on the end that's 50' long, overlapping 10'. Splice a shackle on the end, whip it, done.

That being said, what type of sheaves do you have at the mast head? Any chafe points? How important is creep to you? SK75 (type of dyneema) creeps a bit. Requiring you to re-set the halyard. An alberg 35, probably doesn't care much about creep.

Another simple option, just get a blended core like VPC, MLX, or any other option out there. Technora and vectran also make good halyards. Are you using dacron sails? If that's the case then use a blended core halyard, save your money. The sails are going to stretch much more than your halyard.

I'd also spec out a 5/16" halyard for your boat. 1/4" is very small for a 35 footer.

Salsa line - I have it for a traveler line and have seen it used for jib sheets on winches. It does surprisingly well on winches. Only issue is that it might flatten in a cam cleat. I had a problem with Apex doing that on my boat. Salsa will work great on a mainsheet.
Not using the Salsa for a halyard but mainsheet for which it is plenty long. Actually 80' would be long enough for a halyard..just. 90' is about right. I am going to keep my eye out for 7/16" VPC for a new halyard. I'd use 3/8" Dyneema for a main halyard. Dyneema/Amsteel DOES stretch over time but not under immediate stress to any great extent. The new 90 series has almost no stretch (but is wicked expensive). I'll likely make up a main halyard from 3/8" Dyneema with a partial cover as suggested by Greg. Although the 1/4" has plenty of strength, I'd still go with something bigger. The older boats like mine with large mainsails are VERY sensitive to any loss of halyard tension. That's why I have stuck with the wire halyard thus far. I'll be keeping the wire halyard ready to go back on:-) The sheave is, of course grooved for wire but seems smooth enough so that it will not abrade the line. I'll probably rout out a new profile if a rope halyard works out but, I'm not going to burn that bridge until after a season using the Dyneema.
11-28-2012 11:58 AM
zz4gta
Re: Mainsheet Salsa

80' won't go to the top of the mast and back down to the deck. I buy 80' of halyard for my 25 footer.

You'll need 55-60' of amsteel, then just splice an empty cover on the end that's 50' long, overlapping 10'. Splice a shackle on the end, whip it, done.

That being said, what type of sheaves do you have at the mast head? Any chafe points? How important is creep to you? SK75 (type of dyneema) creeps a bit. Requiring you to re-set the halyard. An alberg 35, probably doesn't care much about creep.

Another simple option, just get a blended core like VPC, MLX, or any other option out there. Technora and vectran also make good halyards. Are you using dacron sails? If that's the case then use a blended core halyard, save your money. The sails are going to stretch much more than your halyard.

I'd also spec out a 5/16" halyard for your boat. 1/4" is very small for a 35 footer.

Salsa line - I have it for a traveler line and have seen it used for jib sheets on winches. It does surprisingly well on winches. Only issue is that it might flatten in a cam cleat. I had a problem with Apex doing that on my boat. Salsa will work great on a mainsheet.
11-28-2012 09:06 AM
smurphny
Re: Mainsheet Salsa

Thanks. I looked for an instruction sheet on the NE Rope site but they don't seem to have one. I'm probably going to go this route.
This thread has more than 10 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:28 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.