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Pros and cons of steel sailboats

909K views 5K replies 127 participants last post by  Faster 
#1 ·
I'm thinking about making the leap from fiberglass to steel for our next sailboat. We want to do some far flung cruising - maybe even circumnavigate. Our present boat is a 1977 Tartan 37 and while we love it - since we've had a child and possibly will have another one on the way it might get a bit small for a liveaboard situation.
This summer I drove a big, old steel tour boat around the finger lakes and started thinking that steel might be a good way to get my family around the big marble.
I've spent a week in the Caribbean on a glorious aluminium boat but have never sailed a steel one, so I have lots of questions about their performance as cruising boats?
What are some of the better designers to keep and eye out for?
How good are they in the hot climates?
Are there any extra dangers in lightning?
Thanks for any and all advice you can give.
 
#2 · (Edited)
I've been building and designing steel boats for the last 36 years. I've pulled together 37 of them to my own designs. An increasing number of people around the world are building their own . Most of my clients have checked out he used fibreglass boat market , some have crossed oceans in them and came to the conclusion that they wouldn't want to go to sea again in anything which was not made of steel. The Fukashima debris field has re-enforced that opinion greatly.
Jimmy Cornell's book "Modern Ocean Cruising," the circumnavigators he interviewed have mostly expressed the same opinions. Check out our website. Just do a search under origamiboats and pick the first one ( yahoo groups) a gold mine of steel boat building information there, from people with a wide range of back grounds, and experience.
After decades of cruising and living aboard my own steel boats, I would never consider anything but a steel boat. After sailing my first boat, a ferro cement boat from BC to New Zealand, I became very interested in a steel boat for my next boat. I lost that boat on a Fijian coral reef, in conditions which would have never even damaged a steel boat. I found a steel boat made cruising far more worry and tension free, to a degree which is unimaginable to those who have only cruised in boats of lesser materials.
Lighter colours and sprayfoam insulation make them, by far, the most comfortable boats in hot climates. Being well grounded, they are the safest boats to be in in a lightening storm. You couldn't ask for better grounding.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Comox backwater, Jack??

The undeniable inherent strength of steel has to be a big comfort at sea and in rock-hopping scenarios.

With today's advanced coatings the maintenance issue is probably much reduced relatively speaking. Repairable anywhere.

But, (no offence, Brent) they're not always pretty and most are hard chine, which is OK but something you need to 'like'.. Soft chine metal boats are usually much more costly to have built.

It's not a quick easy way to build a boat, esp compared to 'plastic' so steel boats will always be in the minority in 'yachty' circles...
 
#7 ·
The advantages are already posted. They are strong and even if more expensive than plastic boats to build commercially, they are relatively easy to build by an amateur.

The real disadvantage is weight that makes them slow boats. That is not a problem for bigger boats but it is a real problem to smaller sailboats.

Regarding smaller sailboats (- 45ft) I think aluminium is a better material. The French amateurs boat builders use a thick aluminium that dispenses internal framing and that makes it almost as easy to work with as working with steel and permits a lighter boat and faster boat.

Marine Auctions - Australia, Brisbane
 
#8 ·
I'm not a expert, and don't remember ever staying in a Holiday Inn Express - but

Brent, or someone that is -

Doesn't the hard chine, being below the water line, reduce tenderness (i.e. make it stiffer) - which I count as a good thing.
I suspect it adds drag, but a cruiser is not a racer.

Brent, I don't agree with a lot of things you say - but if I was building a boat in my yard it would be one of yours.
 
#9 ·
I cruised for 7 years on a 20 year old Ryton 38 steel boat in the 90s. Other than the ongoing rust war I was happy and certainly very happy one night when I hit something doing 6 knots. I have no idea what it was but it put a BIG DENT in the front of the keel. I suspect that it would have badly damaged a grp or wood boat.

A little known disadvantage of having a steel boat is that in the event of a lightning strike the boat can become strongly magnetised rendering all onboard compasses useless. Ask me how I know this!
 
#10 ·
And all the steel boat owners i see out here are constantly fighting the battle against rust. If you want to become ONe with your grinder, all kinds of nasty epoxy, acids, paints, welders then go with steel. Sure the strength is a great plus, but the upkeep? seems like most are put together in some back yard, and the owners are forever grinding away. Great designs Brent, but the build quality on most? Forget about it!
 
#11 ·
Thanks for all the feedback.
I'm not sure we're in the market for a newly built vessel - our budget is more aligned with 10- 20 year old boats.
I'm a novice welder and would like to find something that needs major TLC and new systems so I could put it together before heading out.
Weight and therefore slowness is something I thought might be an issue. We are shopping for something in the 40 to 45 foot range, so maybe the advice PCP gives about aluminium deserves a closer look - where could we find info about the French boats? I always thought aluminum was too expensive.
Center cockpit and aft cabin are also something that appeals to us. Cutter or Ketch both could work. The design of the Stevens 47 or the 44 Kelley Peterson, or even Ted Brewer's Whitby 42 are ones that I've liked. Any of those in steel out there?
Thanks again for all the feedback.
 
#12 ·
#13 ·
Ouch. yes those are a bit pricey- but beautiful.
Any idea where I could learn more about the ones mentioned earlier in this post?

"Regarding smaller sailboats (- 45ft) I think aluminium is a better material. The French amateurs boat builders use a thick aluminium that dispenses internal framing and that makes it almost as easy to work with as working with steel and permits a lighter boat and faster boat."

Thanks!
 
#18 ·
It seems incredible but there are some guys that can manage some soft chines with Origami techniques:

Origami Magic

Chines are not necessarily bad to performance and some years ago a class 40 with hard chines left many (including me) amazed...well, the boat won a lot or races;).

There are aluminium boats with no chines. Allures was the first small builder to do that but for doing that:

"And for our sail yacht construction, we have implemented partnerships with a super yacht yard and a famous cabinet maker company. Through these partnerships we get access to exclusive know-how and top level industrial tools. "

Notre chantier
 
#19 ·
Having owned a 34' Van de Stadt in steel the performance issue is probably the main drawback though yes the maintenance can get you down. Nonetheless I think that chines or no chines she is a very handsome looking boat. The VDS34 is multi chine and for mine that makes for a better look than the somewhat slab sided appearance of hard chine.
 
#20 ·
tdw,
What were the shortcomings in your VDS34 performance? And someone mentioned before that maintenance (rust) is becoming less of a problem with more modern paints- would you say that is true, and finally - what kind of a maintenance schedule are we talking about here?
thanks
 
#22 ·
CQ .... even with modern paints and protective coatings steel will require more maintenance than glass. There is always some small spot that needs attention and if you ignore, it is not going away. With a steeler you simply need to keep an eye open, your dremel at the ready and a touch up kit. We found POR to be worthwhile.

Performance shortcomings in reality are only when compared to a similar boat. The glass or timber boat (vds 34s were made in steel, glass or cold moulded diagonal strip) has less overall weight, same sail area but more weight in the keel itself. The steeler has a heavier hull so can carry less ballast in the keel. Ergo the glass and timber versions will stand up to their sails better and can get along in less wind.

One other point to consider is that it seems to me that whenever people build steel boats they also tend to go for all timber interiors with bugger all attention given to the weight. A friend of mine with a timber VDS34 and a comparatively lightweight interior sits around 150mm higher in the water than our old girl with her full timber fitout. Sure we had the more comfortable boat, more fuel, more water but in anything under 15 - 20 knots the other girl sailed rings around us.

To be clear I am not down on steelers though if I was to go down that path again I'd want more than 40' and more care taken to keep interior weight down. Aluminium is quite frankly preferable .... in my eyes at least.
 
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#37 ·
Several of my boats have been flame sprayed with zinc, totally eliminating corrosion. Friends have also used a mixture of zinc and aluminium, after much research showed that to be best.
I flame sprayed one 36 with zinc. I found that the spray starts to go on like fine sandpaper, and there is very little heat buildup, barely warming the plate. When it starts to spatter, and you get more heat buildup, its time to take the gun apart and clean the tiny holes in it.The more frequently you do this, the better the job.
 
#23 ·
Thanks to all for your replies. A lot to think about.
Funny what started out as a thread on steel boats has turned into an endorsement for aluminium boats. While I greatly appreciate this info, I wonder if there are any steel boaters out there who have yet to chime in ?
 
#26 · (Edited)
You have asked about a boat build with aluminum stongal. I find this one that was built by a reputable shipyard (meta) and that is being sold at an incredible price. I don't know if the boat has any problem. It is sold directly by the owner and that can make it less expensive. At that price I think it deserves a look;)

Meta Chantier Naval » LOGIQUE DE MER 40

CHANTIER META LOGIQUE DE MER 40 Voiliers 10 - 12 m année 2002

Contact : Mme Pascale MAISONNEUVE

Mail : pascalemai25@yahoo.fr

You can see on Meta shipyard page more used strongal boats like this one:

http://www.meta-chantier-naval.fr/web/les-constructions/nos-occasions/dalu-40/

Here is the page:

http://www.meta-chantier-naval.fr/web/les-constructions/nos-occasions/
 
#31 · (Edited)
Interesting thread... Everything bad about steel.. Nothing much bad about aluminum??

Clearly aluminum does not have the deterministic fatigue resistance of steel. Aluminum seems to be sensative to not just corrosion, but also disimilar metals and electrolysis.

No doubt, some like steel, some like wood, some like grp and some like aluminum. But don't think for a moment that aluminum like others does not have serious issues.
Bryce
 
#32 ·
Of course aluminium has issues if not treated correctly but I think the gist of this thread is that overall it comes out on top as a building material other than the required buckazoids.
 
#36 · (Edited)
aluminum... overall it comes out on top as a building material
I tend to view materials as useful for a particular application. Aluminum may be useful if you are particularly concerned about weight. It appears the application for this thread is a cruiser. Seems unlikely justification for aluminum.

Aluminum structures need careful testing to quantify their fatigue life. The Airline industry makes use of an incredible quantity of aluminum for wings, landing gear and body. And they characterize the fatigue strength and resulting life with sophisticated structual test systems than often contain 100s of actuators. Quite impressive test systems.

So do these aluminum boat manufacturers subject their hulls to similar fatigue tests? Probably not. These multi-channel test systems cost tens of millions of dollars. Well beyond the wallet of the boat builders.

We have all seen the fatigue cracks on masts and booms on sail boats. Many of us have small aluminum boats with numerous fatigue cracks in various load points. And some of us have seen aluminum hulls from older boats with numerous cracks.

Even with the incredibly careful testing the airline industry subjects their planes to, they have fatigue cracks in the structures. Careful inspections catch most problems before the plane falls out of the sky. The automotive manufacturers perform similar fatigue testing.

If weight is the major concern, yes you might like an aluminum hull.. but really.. a cruiser is hardly weight sensitive. On the contrary, the heavier boat will be invariably more comfortable which cruisers eventually learn.

Wood rots, steel rusts, aluminum cracks/corrodes, fiberglass coring fails. Each material comes out on top for some particular application.
Take your pick.. just understand the limitations..
Bryce
 
#54 ·
The point I am trying to make is that there is an incredible amount of experience with aluminum boat builders in the US. Invariable the reason for building aluminum boats is the weight issue rather than strength. As you (and I) pointed out.
Bryce
Of curse, everybody knows that a sail boat should be as light as possible and as strong as possible. Light and strong is not an attribute that is good only on sailboats, many other type of boats have advantages to be light and strong and that's why so many boats are built in Aluminum in the US and everywhere.

I guess that everybody knows that weight for weight Aluminum is considerably stronger than steel.

Regards

Paulo
 
#63 · (Edited)
I guess that everybody knows that weight for weight Aluminum is considerably stronger than steel.
And, offshore it is the same thing. Weight AND durability is the issue. These things take MAJOR beatings that a fiberglass boat would not even make it 100 yards from the launch.
Durability is a broad subject. The specific issue of durability I refer to is one of fatigue strength. This has little to do with other metrics of strength. Many who think aluminum is stronger than Steel invariably compare alloy aluminum with mild steel. Clearly alloyed steels can easily be 5-10 times stronger than aluminum.

Fatigue strength, on the other hand refers to a stuctures ability to resist bending/vibration. Even the alloyed aluminum is rarely a match for steel in fatigue strength given the same size.

I have also seen an interesting ;) discussion of impact resistance of fiberglass versus other materials. It argues the point impact such as a rock hit or bowling ball or sledge hammer is representative of the distributed force of a wave on a hull. Seems to mirror your discussion. The way I see it, they are unrelated. Besides the problem of point impact not translating to distributed force by a reasonable model, in the very least, such tests fail to consider fatigue.

Bryce
 
#33 ·
Ah, that secret rot called rust.

No, fiberglass, laid up like a Morgan OI 47', is the better transoceanic hull. Fiberglass reinforced with carbon-fiber core matting would be really strong, and perhaps could be made thinner.

I had read of someone building their own boat of copper, suppose that would cost too much today. Aluminum is an interesting idea, but concealed corrosion along welds also a problem. Maybe an aluminum catamaran or trimaran is an idea. No sticky compass problems, what?
 
#34 ·
No, fiberglass, laid up like a Morgan OI 47', is the better transoceanic hull.
No such animal ever existed. There were a few OI 49's built but they are quite rare.
 
#42 ·
One should not confuse resale price with resale value. Resale price is what you can get for a used boat, but resale value is the difference between what you can get for her, and what she cost you in the first place.
Its not uncommon for people to spend an extra $40K on a boat, to increase the resale price by $20K, a net loss of $20K.
Many of my boats have sold for many times what they cost the original builder. The more you spend on her, the less the gap, until it becomes a money losing proposition.

I have pulled together 37 small steel boats.
 
#43 ·
Brent, you are unusually well qualified to provide a real world answer to the performance question of steel boats.

What is your typical miles per day average on your Pacific crossings in your own boat?
 
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#44 ·
Brent, I am not saying bad things about steel boats. They are what they are: strong, heavy and slow if they are not really big.

You have a way of building solid boats in a way that is not expensive and that makes it simple for an amateur to build for not much money and I appreciate that and certainly you have a market for them. But if you go to a shipyard with a more complex design of a 40ft boat that can be built in aluminum or steel (some designs can) the difference in price should be about 25% less for steel. In 15 years the difference in value of the two boats will be much more than those 25% difference and besides that even much more cheaper the steel boat is going to be much more difficult to sell.

Regards

Paulo
 
#48 ·
Lets be realistic here guys, the best material for a boat is an all titanium hull. :D

Size for size a steel boat is always going to be both heavier and cheaper. However this is just for the hull. Aluminium doesn't need to be painted, so this can be a pretty big cost savings, and because the systems can be smaller (rig, engines, transmission, ect) the difference in cost between aluminium and steel for the entire boat isn't really as high as the cost to just build the hull may imply.

I always find it interesting that people raise concerns about the fatigue life of aluminium, but no one ever raises the issue with fiberglass. Given that fiberglass has the same fatigue problems as aluminium it seems more of a theoretical problem than an actual one, so long as the boat is properly designed in the first place.
 
#57 · (Edited)
I always find it interesting that people raise concerns about the fatigue life of aluminium, but no one ever raises the issue with fiberglass. Given that fiberglass has the same fatigue problems as aluminium it seems more of a theoretical problem than an actual one, so long as the boat is properly designed in the first place.
There is a good reason people who know are concerned with fatigue life of aluminum.. because it is aluminums most critical issue. And it fatigue failures are thousands of well documented real-life fatigue cracks that show up in a multitude of aluminum products.

There is a simple solution.. subject your product to fatigue tests. That is what the airline manufacturers and auto manufacturers do.

On the other hand, the fatigue life of something like steel is so well defined that you can build a product, and predict its life with software on a computer.

The way I see fiberglass is that there is not such widespread fatigue failure in fiberglass based on experiences of people. Rather fiberglass failure seems most often due to core failure or impact damage. The study below suggests that fiberglass fatigue might be predicted using steel type predictions.

Although I am sure some structural test engineers would cringe at the test setup these guys used.. its an interesting read.

www.usna.edu/Users/naome/phmiller/fatigue.ppt

Bryce
 
#49 ·
Europeans have been building aluminium boats as long as the US. But specifically in Sailboats the European market is the largest in the world( and significantly bigger then the US) and hence also accommodates aluminium sailboat construction. The US has little or no experience in metal based leisure sailboats. Its only when you get into super yacht territory do you see some experience.
 
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