SailNet Community banner
  • SailNet is a forum community dedicated to Sailing enthusiasts. Come join the discussion about sailing, modifications, classifieds, troubleshooting, repairs, reviews, maintenance, and more!

Opposition to liveaboards

41K views 272 replies 50 participants last post by  Ravenhawk 
#1 ·
I want to share something with you guys and I want to know IF you have ever experienced anything like this....We are New to the sailing world and love it....we chose to live aboard our boat for MANY reasons...well...we found this awesome Marina in Fernandina Beach that is run by the city......anyway...they told us the live aboard rate was going to go up $200 a month! Is there opposition to live aboards or is this an isolated case?
 
#208 ·
"Living aboard" has two manifestations: 1. people who plop themselves in a marina and stay put for months. 2. People who keep moving (permanent cruisers). Those who keep moving need to actually operate a SAILBOAT and can't have a bunch of junk scattered all over. I agree that no one wants to be stuck next to a garbage scow for even one day, tripping over debris on the dock. It's not a class warfare issue, just basic neatness. Quite frankly, actually living on a boat squeezed in among 200 other boats, people constantly walking down the dock craning their necks to look in, is not (IMO) a really great place to be. I've done it. Only occasionally do I dock anywhere. It only inhibits my ability to get going early and sail.
 
#212 ·
People who have spent their lives catering to the relevance of money , feel their entire belief system threatened, when anyone demonstrates the ability to make money and the power it supposedly gives it's diciples , less relevant , proving the consumer religion on which money grubbers base their lives, a bit of a folly, especially when such lower income people end up with a happier and freer life than they do..

I have often been vehemently attacked, for enabling low income people to have better boats than the rich have, without their having to grovel to wealth.
 
#213 ·
While I agree commercialism can get a little out of hand esp during the holidays. The fact is the world runs on money. You have to have it to do anything. If you don't use your own cash than you have to be consuming someone else's.

Sure you can barter for a lot of things, but most of those things you get in trade were bought by someone with cash before they traded it to you.

Again I do agree that many get caught in the keep up with the neighbors type lifestyle. If they get a new car I need one too. my house or boat has be to better than theirs. All that does look and sound stupid. But in the end those people are what drives to prices for new products down to where the rest of us can afford them.

Those products include many marine products that us low budget people can now afford.
 
#215 ·
You can give money as much or as little importance as you like. There is a basic level of money everyone in the US needs to reach but if a person is wise in the areas of debt and "needs vs wants," the level of money needed is really not that much. The bigger issue is independence which to me equals happiness, the thing everyone, rich or poor wants. You cannot be independent if you owe a lot of money or if you let jealousy and envy affect your decisions. Being on the American treadmill is a hideous place to be no matter how many dollars you accumulate. It's a place many get stuck and then forget what really matters. I just wish more people would have time to take a step back and reassess what this short span of existence is all about but that would terrify those that want to see everyone on the treadmill.
 
#218 ·
I am very curious. Suddenly I noticed that this thread is big, I mean it is not a dilettante thing but really goes deep on the interest of the members of this forum, I mean this thread has about 200 replies for about 10 000 hits. That means that 500 are looking after each post. That really surprised me.

So, a question: Why this is so important, I mean why this topic is so hot among the members of this forum? What is at stake here that is so meaningful to cruisers?

There are a relative consensus about the subject? It seemed to me that there was one but I am not sure now. What is the real issue here? If there is not a consensus what are the two main views on the subject?


....
 
#229 ·
So, a question: Why this is so important, I mean why this topic is so hot among the members of this forum? What is at stake here that is so meaningful to cruisers?
It hits on a lot of issues. Many cruisers have seen good places to anchor/put in at a slip disappear over the years. There are a lot of reasons for it. New environment laws, coastal land being worth more and more, cruisers being blamed for issues that aren't their fault, etc etc.

Then you also have a bit of push and pull between a few styles of cruisers/live aboards. The clean freaks, the scruffy salty boats, people who rarely leave the dock vs those who sail a couple times a week, etc. Basically everyone approaches the lifestyle differently.

And since you're talking about a person's way of life it tends to draw more interest/point of view than, say, choice of cat food.

But at the end of the day live aboards are all part of the same community and they do stick together.
 
#219 · (Edited)
To PCP.... To me this discussion (and you will read it in alot of comments) is about FREEDOM, Freedom of choice, haves vs. have nots, money , the US Constitution, Republicans vs Democrats. Neat freaks vs messy people. Like the "Odd Couple " on TV. In some ways like the Recent American election.
....People who follow the "rules" versus people who don't or would like to not follow the rules. Underdogs vs others. About "truth , justice and the American way ".
....We don't have a Queen or a King,or Dictator. WE are a democracy. Right wing thinkers versus Left Wing thinkers. Freedom. These are just a few things that come to mind.... PCP, your descriptions of some MARINAS are not the kind of CONTROL that many Americans want. I,we, don't want "big brother'" watching and controlling us. Some want freedom to have guns, some don't (these ideas are underlying this discussion---in my opinion---! You live in Portugal??
...as you will see this post will anger some here on sailnet with other opinions and open a whole new can of worms.
 
#221 ·
...as you will see this post will anger some here on sailnet with other opinions and open a whole new can of worms.
Not angry here.

While your assessment of the sailing community's opinion on this matter may fall in the camps you describe, the only thing that matters here is the person that invested millions of dollars into the marina for it to exist.

They get to decide whether they want messy or neat or to deal with 24/7 customers or whatever. I see no one suggesting that isn't the bottom line.
 
#223 ·
I think one of the underlying issues is the slow disappearance of DIY boatyards. There are still some of us who like to work on our own boats and couldn't really afford $100/hr. for a marina to do the work. To us, doing the work is a large part of the reason we have a boat. It seems that as a business a lot of these family type boatyards are becoming unsustainable. Taxes, insurance, power, and all the other costs to run a marina must be staggering. There seem to be fewer places that middle class people can keep a boat now than there were 30 years ago. It is another reflection of the squeeze being experienced by working people and the polarization taking place in America.
 
#225 · (Edited)
Building a marina and keep it in good condition with adequate security is an expensive business specially if you are going to do it from scratch and not taken advantage of a sheltered place that was public.

Most marinas here take their sustainability from urban developments that are associated with or then on a way or another have a lot of public money on it, or because state and government contributed for creating the conditions for its to existence (break walls protection, access and so on) or because they subsidize it, openly or not.

The only ones that are sustainable are the huge ones near important towns or the ones that are in very nice cruising grounds and on each case the prices are huge and are huge because it is very expensive to build and run a marina.

Regarding working on the boat some marinas (at least on the Med) offer dry land spaces were you can work on your boat for less money that would cost having your boat on the water. Far away from the boats in the water you are not going to be a nuisance to others and can work at will not disturbing anybody.

Off course this type of marinas are not on the nicest places simply because there the space is very valuable. On that kind of marinas it cost you a lot more money to have the boat on dry that in the water simply because they have a lot more places on the water and normally the only places in dry are associated in a way or another with the marina shipyard so they don't let you work on the boat.

That has all to do with freedom and sustainability.

Regards

Paulo
 
#224 ·
DIY boatyards can be environmental nightmares. Many boatyards are deciding to drop certain services or only sell certain products in order to avoid having to install remediation systems that cost a ton. Having hard to manage DIY'ers is probably a death sentence with the local environs authorities.

I find it remarkable that ours will still allow you to paint your own bottom, but you must use a dust collection system when you sand. However, I'm sure these days are numbered. Many are volunteering to only apply eco-friendly paints to avoid having to install power washing water collection/filtering systems. They won't be able to insure this practice, if they don't manage the product.
 
#227 ·
"WE are a democracy."
Not quite, Sidney. In a real democracy, which is sometimes called a "direct democracy", your vote runs things.
What we have in America is a "democratic republic" which is a republic, not a democracy. We vote for minions, ergh, leaders, but it is they in turn who make the laws and run the country, and they can pretty much do whatever they please, whether the original voters like it or not.
You might say this is a small difference, but it is a real one. We've had presidents elected by the Electoral College, who lost the actual democratic common vote. And we see our Congress, even now, refusing to write a budget to run the nation, and behaving so irresponsibly that our stock market stays in chaos while we have committed our militaries to overseas combat without the courtesy of declaring a war. Time after time.

In theory, the stewards of a good republic will do what is necessary for the public good, rather than what is merely popular, saving us from a mobocracy. In practice? Finding good stewards is in many ways harder than finding a good plumber, or a cheap boatyard.

But a democracy? Good lord, no. America was never founded as one. That's another lie told to placate the schoolchildren. Voters should be better informed.
 
#228 · (Edited)
I deleted my own post because it will only take this thread even further off topic.

In the end a lot of this is the same kind of complaint that people in formally rural areas have about urban sprawl -- there are just more people in the world, fighting for limited real estate, and that happens on the coastline as much as anywhere else. Where did all the DIY boat yards go ? They are probably condo's now, or in some other way they were pushed out by higher prices, higher taxes, lower public interest, or whatever reason. If you want the same experience as 50 years ago you have to go afar, it just doesn't exist in many places any more than the farms that used to be there, it has all simply disappeared.

In many ways this entire "Opposition to Liveaboards" thread is really about the new property owners on the coast and their "rights" (or perceived rights) to enjoy their property regardless of who used to be there, regardless of the live aboards who have always anchored at their doorstep, etc. It's the same argument that happens in rural areas when urban people move to the country and build a big house on the hill and then complain because the farmer continues to spread manure on his field. It is the same marinas, but there are a lot more wealthy boat owners that want to use them for the simple fact that there are more wealthy people on the coasts that own boats, and the people who own the marinas charge more because they can, and because they have to in order to cover their expenses, to cover their increased property taxes, the increased value of their property that could be used for water front condo's, etc.
 
#230 ·
Thank god I live in a place where the use of marinas is optional! I find that staying out of them completely solves the above mentioned problems. With my super low maintenance, twin keel steel sloop, I have only hauled out twice in 28 years , both times in Tonga, due to a 5,000 mile, mostly windward sail ahead of me.
Here in BC, all people are doing to avoid the rules is find a deserted bay, far from the control freaks ,to do their work in. There is no shortage of such places, far from any serious chance of anyone encountering a government control freak. See one coming and they head into the bush, no problem.
 
#232 ·
One thing out here is a greater amount of tolerance amongst the cruisers/liveaboards/day sailors/marina operators. Seems like everybody is busy doing projects, decks full of gear and sometimes spilling out onto the finger piers. Never heard anybody complaining. Many times the boat next door is overly apologetic about the mess they make....Guess being in the same boat as everybody else leads to a lot more understanding.
 
#236 ·
People will band into tribes for just about any reason. In fact, if there's no apparent reason to oppose the "other" they'll make one up. Such it is with the "liveaboards" vs the "weekenders." It's the same here in ski country where we deride the "turkeys" who come from cities to enjoy the mountains. It's just a sad fact of human nature. "Live and let live" is a great, elusive idea.
 
#237 ·
Something to that, I suppose.

However, as I've mentioned in my marina, its nearly impossible to tell who is living aboard for the summer. As a result, every weekender I know wants to be just like them. It's only the odd inconsiderate boater (weekender or liveaboard) that shakes the peace. Having prolonged junk around would be inconsiderate in our marina neighborhood.
 
#238 ·
When I have asked the question of this thread previously, more than once I was told that liveaboards don't pay toward the city infrastructure, i.e., we don't pay any property taxes, and thus we are seen as less than desirables.
Granted, the marina we pay our slip fees to, pays a property tax, which is like any other "renters", but, unlike apartment renters, we are seen as probably being able to buy a home, yet we chose not to.
And that choice makes us suspicious. We are not like "them", of our own choice, and as Chef2Sail pointed out most eloquently, there are some very real and basic differences to our values which also puts us at odds with landowners.
 
#243 ·
I know lots of people who could buy a house and rent instead. They would rather put there capitol into something that produces income, and have the flexibility of being a renter. I have one friend who "owns" several buildings including houses, but rents in area due to the schools. He did not want to buy just for the 6 years he would have kids in the school. It is over an hour away from his main business that he needs to be at 6 days a week, so once his youngest graduates from high school he will move back upstate.

Real estate is generally a bad investment, so it is not unreasonable to rent even if you have the money to buy.
 
#246 ·
Tell that to the HOMEOWNER who is paying taxes which support the local SCHOOLS, POLICE, FIRE DEPARTMENT, etc., which we liveaboards are NOT contributing to.

When I was in Sausalito, CA., these issues were brought up numerous times in town meetings.

Nobody is diminishing their feelings towards liveaboards because of the diminishing valuation of land homes, or because of any marine related influx to the general economy of the area.
 
#249 ·
"Tell that to the HOMEOWNER who is "
Ah, Doug, do you mean the homeowner who is too stupid to vote and shape their own local tax structure? Or the homeowner who is too stupid to know that the liveaboards in their area probably already DO pay for those services, through taxes that are levied on the marina they stay at?

Some guy living in a deserted cove is probably beating the taxes, but he's probably out of range of fire and pd and has no kids in the local school nor is he (he) likely to. OTOH if someone is formally residing at a marina and there's no tax revenue covering the services he is using, that's called "too dumb to vote" and the homeowner should be disenfranchised since they are obviously not competent to vote.

The liveaboards probably can't vote, unless they are domiciled there, in which case there's probably already taxes being levied on them, one way or another.

What I love is to see the states like Florida give a "homesteading" discount on property taxes, in some cases a whopping huge discount, so the snowbirds and seasonals who don't use any services most of the year, wind up paying a secret "tourist tax" to subsidize the rest. See now, that's some clever bubbas learning how to vote, and set their taxes.

You stay in a hotel, you pay a hotel tax or a bed tax (literally) which subsidizes local police and fire and paving and sewers and all that good stuff. You stay in a marina? The marina can be required to collect the same taxes. Just takes a bubba smart enough to vote. Take a petition around, if your neighbors ain't that smart.
 
#250 ·
....You stay in a hotel, you pay a hotel tax or a bed tax (literally) which subsidizes local police and fire and paving and sewers and all that good stuff. You stay in a marina? The marina can be required to collect the same taxes. Just takes a bubba smart enough to vote. Take a petition around, if your neighbors ain't that smart.
That's the authority of the government and the citizens can petition it, if they like. However, there is a good reason that States set their own tax policy. They compete with each other and that competition insures efficiency. In RI, there is no sales tax on boats for a reason. It brings boaters here from neighboring States and keep the tens of thousands of people employed that service this industry. Not to mention that they all spend money when on their boats, so RI actually collects sales tax from them on restaurant tabs, Home Depot, etc, for a lifetime. Those people keep jobs too. That's cleaver. Bubba just might chase them across the border with the above plan.
 
#251 ·
States get their tax money. Maybe it's from Peter, maybe from Paul but they get it. When states choose to lure buyers of things by eliminating sales tax, it simply shifts the burden onto others. Same for freebies to industry. When I retired, I moved the heck out of NH, for example, because I got tired of footing the bill through my property taxes so that people from Mass. could come over the border and buy things tax-free. Where states get their revenue from is a complicated equation involving fairness issues. I know folks in NH paying 15k in taxes for a normal, medium sized, probably 2000 sq.ft. house...it's absurd.
 
#252 · (Edited)
The payroll and income taxes collected on the jobs and business activity that the RI sales tax policy creates/retains, probably dwarf the potential sales tax. And the taxpayers have jobs! Not to mention the sales taxes on everything else that is spent by the out of state crowd here. I presume NH was doing the same math in keeping those stores open that are selling to Mass residents. Lose those jobs and your property taxes go up too, as you stop collecting both payroll and corporate income taxes on that activity and now have to pay unemployment and social welfare benefits.

Keep people employed and spending money. It's not that complicated.
 
#254 ·
You may well be right about the relative amounts brought in but states ought to make an attempt to proportion taxes fairly. NH has sky high taxes on anything you own, including car, house, boat, etc. They promote the "tax-free" state, which is true...unless of course, you happen to live there. It is very regressive to slap the responsible citizens with a big tax bill so that people can buy cheap liquor at state liquor stores. The overall tax rate in NH is pretty low. There is no income tax, no sales tax. The dollars to provide the financially strapped services like education and law enforcement come from homeowners.
 
#259 ·
I get your point Doug. I'm saying that I don't think that is the same here in RI as where you've experienced it. Look at a map. The western side of the state is about a sparcely populated as you can get. If it weren't for the Bay, what would RI have? Changes the dynamic here. While there are contingencies that fire off stupid ideas from time to time, they lose because its a very boater friendly state. So far, anyway.
 
#261 ·
Well, that is a real anomaly. I have been a liveaboard in Cal., Fl., and Ma.
And all of those areas do not relish our presence.

Some States, for instance I think Georgia, has outlawed liveaboards! That is how much it is not welcomed, regardless of any financial realities.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top