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Production boats- justified bias?

54K views 304 replies 48 participants last post by  Beyond some weather 
#1 · (Edited)
Hey all. Would like some input and sorry for asking an opinion question that could generate some hackle raising responses!!

I grew up sailing and continue to do so with my family now. We had a Caliber 28 and are moving up to a 40-ish boat mostly for bay cruising as well as a "year off" cruise with our 3 kids (in 4 years). Looking for boats and have appreciated the feedback on this forum.

I grew up thinking that anything not Bristol/island packet/cape dory was no good.. People used to rag on bene's and hunters (this was 1980's) and touted bristols etc as "good boats". Here's my question: does the same "production boat" stigma still hold? I've been doing a lot of research on Beneteau Bavaria Catalina (haven't read too much on hunter yet) and I just don't see the difference anymore between the "high quality boats" and production. Finesse and fine woodwork aside, if you have a fiberglass hull, end grain balsa cored decks and good quality ports hatches and hardware, lead keel etc where is the difference? I've been really interested in a Catalina 42. But then I started looking at hunter 42 (online) and they look good too (and their websites list all the same design stuff). Similar displacements etc.

I guess my question is: does the same bias from years ago still hold true or have "name brands" and production boats met somewhere in the middle (save for the really high end boats)?

I am pretty budget conscious and want to get as much boat as I can for the money. So I'm trying to come to terms with considering boats that in years past all the old salts ragged on (not Catalina- always heard good things). I'm coming to the conclusion that the bias is dated and not accurate today. Am I missing the obvious?

thanks in advance
 
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#119 · (Edited)
Smackdaddy,

It is not about dying in a knock down but what can happen to some production boats that might not happen to others. Most boats can survive the knock down but remember we are out sailing to enjoy life. And with that in mind there is nothing worse than a boat not designed to take a knock down. The owner has to live with the aftermath of a knock down.

Will all your lockers open flying perfectly good stuff into crap. Does your wife like doing stitches on your forehead because the locker locks were not made to a very good standard.

Will the boom hold up on a knock down when the reefed main fills with water and the boat rights itself. Does that production boat have as good a goose neck as the other production boat.

How about the companion way is it made as well as some other production boats, will the boards be pushed through on a knock down, does it even have storm boards?

How did the port lights do in the knock down? I'm sure they must be OK.

Those engine mounts, fuel tanks are they good enough to survive or are they there to ruin your beautiful cruise if by chance you get knocked down.

Like a lot of fine sailors here have said the deck is everything, does this deck compare to the deck of another production boat? I don't know if you have ever gone forward even on a boat with good deck in a storm, especially at night. Just plain scary but sometimes it has to be done. I would not wish that on anyone even my best enemy on some production boats mentioned.

Sometimes we worry on forums about boats and death, we are human. But when I'm at sea I want to have already worried what could go wrong with the boat I own and know I did the best I could in choosing some type preventative selection. Not just because this type of boat has crossed oceans countless times.

You do not have to choose a bigger boat, you just need to understand what you could be getting into. Look for the bad stuff first and honestly see what you can live with. The nice stuff about a production boat is always there for the many days we enjoy sailing. But it takes only one bad day to ruin a lot of good days that lay ahead.
 
#125 · (Edited)
Smackdaddy,

It is not about dying in a knock down but what can happen to some production boats that might not happen to others. Most boats can survive the knock down but remember we are out sailing to enjoy life. And with that in mind there is nothing worse than a boat not designed to take a knock down. The owner has to live with the aftermath of a knock down.

Will all your lockers open flying perfectly good stuff into crap. Does your wife like doing stitches on your forehead because the locker locks were not made to a very good standard.

Will the boom hold up on a knock down when the reefed main fills with water and the boat rights itself. Does that production boat have as good a goose neck as the other production boat.

How about the companion way is it made as well as some other production boats, will the boards be pushed through on a knock down, does it even have storm boards?

How did the port lights do in the knock down? I'm sure they must be OK.
I don't know how you feel about the Najad 38 - but here's what it looks like after a knockdown off Cape Horn:





That's Jeanne Socrates' boat (http://synereida.livejournal.com/113101.html). Definitely not a "production boat" in the context of this thread.

Real knockdowns are rough on any boat apparently.

Like a lot of fine sailors here have said the deck is everything, does this deck compare to the deck of another production boat? I don't know if you have ever gone forward even on a boat with good deck in a storm, especially at night. Just plain scary but sometimes it has to be done. I would not wish that on anyone even my best enemy on some production boats mentioned.
Yeah, I've worked the foredeck in the past few off-shore races I've been on...in fairly stinky weather...at night. I get it.

Sometimes we worry on forums about boats and death, we are human. But when I'm at sea I want to have already worried what could go wrong with the boat I own and know I did the best I could in choosing some type preventative selection. Not just because this type of boat has crossed oceans countless times.

You do not have to choose a bigger boat, you just need to understand what you could be getting into. Look for the bad stuff first and honestly see what you can live with. The nice stuff about a production boat is always there for the many days we enjoy sailing. But it takes only one bad day to ruin a lot of good days that lay ahead.
This part I totally agree with.
 
#126 ·
I have a 2012 Beneteau 41.

Really big cockpit, comfortable layout below, super easy to maneuver around the dock and a delight to sail on the Chesapeake. Easy. Fast. Friendly. Exactly suited to the kind of sailing we really do.

Is it a floating condo? No. Though we do weekend on it, comfortably.

Would I go round the world? No.

Does it sail well? Yep, Both light air and strong winds. Fast too.

We sail most every weekend, beginning of April to the end of November.

I also owned a 2002 Catalina and 2004 Beneteau. The '12 is much, much better from a design and quality perspective, for the kind of sailing we do. The recession must have made builders up their game.

We love it. Could afford it, too.

Wouldn't turn down a Swan, though.
 
#135 ·
And here's an Allied Seawind Ketch after a knockdown (definitely not a production boat):
If Allieds were not production boats of their day, I don't know what was... They were about as basic, and identical, as they come... Built like brick ****houses, to be sure - but "production" brick ****houses, nevertheless...

The Kuhners are definitely the real deal, alright... One of the best cruising articles ever written, IMHO, as their comparison (published in BWS years ago) between their circumnavigations on the Seawind, and 2 decades later on their Valiant 40... It really put things in perspective, in many respects their 1st go-around in a much simpler, more basic boat, really was the purer and more memorable experience...
 
#136 ·
Not sure if mentioned yet, for the Sydney-Hobart race, their are "9" beneteau first 40's racing out of 75 boats plus another 3-5 other sized bene's, making that the most popular brand, making up about 20% of the fleet. The rest of the fleet had maybe 2 or 3 boats of the same brand, no other model was over 2 maybe three also. Something to be said for this model(s) of a higher volume production boat builder!

In the past, there has been a 1D fleet of Sydney 38's, only saw maybe 2 racing this year. I did not see that the 1st 40's had there own division, but with that many, there should be. I also did not paruse the fleets real close either.

Marty
 
#137 ·
I have said it before and will say it again, "No production boat manufacturer builds their boats to fail". If you race your boat and want to be competitive, then it needs to be modified to allow for the extreme conditions you would expect to encounter in the ocean. The cruiser not having to follow the fleet has the luxury to sit tight and enjoy another few days of partying and exploring their anchorage, waiting while the nasty weather passes. With today's weather routing and long range forecasts there is no reason to punch into rough weather, albeit we do tend to use the motor more than I would like, but the wife is happy and I do get good meals at set times with a drink at sun down. Occasionally you will get hit by a squall, but these are short lived and as long as you are ready can be exhilarating. Traveling to windward is only fun when the seas are small and the wind less than 15 knots and for a short duration of time, going to windward for days on end is just a pain and a sure fire way to piss off the cook/crew/significant other, that is unless a necessity of an ocean race. Buy the boat you like and can afford take precautions and plan ahead and you can go sooner and in comfort.
 
#145 ·
I haven't seen a new Trintella for years but I well remember a new 44 that was shown here years ago. Comparing it in any way to a mass or mid market builder is patently absurd. It was Nautor quality and price. IIRC it was double the price of a very similar, quality built local boat (Spencer 1330).
 
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#150 ·
Go look up an MY50, look at the design brief, and you will see it is not designed to cross oceans etc. Maybe yes, the winds I mentioned are on the lower side of what that boat will handle. BUT, if you look at the design etc, it does not come with, nor designed with safety lines around the boat. My 28' boat has better offshore design options than that one. Some others include the entry to the cabin is higher than the cockpit seats, so if the cockpit floods, the cabin does not. The MY and some others, the entry door is at the cockpit floor level. This is a design issue that could sink a boat in the ocean in BIG waves.

Look up the European design ratings that came about after the 79 fastnet race. This will help you understand why and how some boats should handle certain conditions vs others that will not. B rating as the morris MY designs, and possibly your Morgan, altho suspect your morgan is a C, can handle up to IIRC 6 m seas, no place for a life raft, where as an A rated needs a life raft, and can handle 10m seas. Righting moment is higher for an A vs B vs C. C is inland protected, B is sorta protected, A is open water.
The number after is the number of occupants. Some boats will have an A6B8C10, meaning for open ocean, 6 max, semi protected, 8 max, protected, 10 max occupants on board.

I'm sure I have not explained the above correctly, but it gives you and idea. I think I have a link, will see if I can find the definitions for you to read. If I can not find them, I a sure Paulo knows where they can be found at.

Marty
 
#162 · (Edited)
Go look up an MY50, look at the design brief, and you will see it is not designed to cross oceans etc. Maybe yes, the winds I mentioned are on the lower side of what that boat will handle. BUT, if you look at the design etc, it does not come with, nor designed with safety lines around the boat. My 28' boat has better offshore design options than that one. Some others include the entry to the cabin is higher than the cockpit seats, so if the cockpit floods, the cabin does not. The MY and some others, the entry door is at the cockpit floor level. This is a design issue that could sink a boat in the ocean in BIG waves.

Look up the European design ratings that came about after the 79 fastnet race. This will help you understand why and how some boats should handle certain conditions vs others that will not. B rating as the Morris MY designs, and possibly your Morgan, altho suspect your morgan is a C, can handle up to IIRC 6 m seas, no place for a life raft, where as an A rated needs a life raft, and can handle 10m seas. Righting moment is higher for an A vs B vs C. C is inland protected, B is sorta protected, A is open water.
The number after is the number of occupants. Some boats will have an A6B8C10, meaning for open ocean, 6 max, semi protected, 8 max, protected, 10 max occupants on board.

I'm sure I have not explained the above correctly, but it gives you and idea. I think I have a link, will see if I can find the definitions for you to read. If I can not find them, I a sure Paulo knows where they can be found at.

Marty
Marty,

What is an MY50?

I can assure you that beyond any of the day sailors, which are not intended for world cruising, a Morris would be one of my first choices in construction and durability to take me anywhere. Course I could only afford a small Morris so unless cruising alone..... These boats are built like the proverbial "brick $hit house"...

Below is the fin keel for the Morris 36' DAY SAILOR., remember this is a DAY SAILOR not a boat intended for more than an occasional coastal overnight.. This keel is then bolted to a keel bed that is reinforced with solid fiberglass stringers directly glassed to the hull, not a glued in grid. These stringers have zero wood in them to rot out. Each u-shaped stringer beam has a wall thickness that exceeds 1/2" even for a very light displacement 36 foot day sailor. Vinylester resins are used throughout as are copious amounts of G10 and lots of solid fiberglass strong points. Chainplates are direct to solid glassed in fiberglass knees that extend to below the waterline. They are not supported by free floating screwed in bulkheads.. There are 13 keel bolts here with all but the aft two exceeding 1" and this is for a light displacement DAY SAILOR...


Here is a keel from a 36' production cruiser, just 5 bolts, and a significantly heavier displacement to the Morris 36 day sailor..


And another production cruiser of similar length and heavier displacement to the Morris DAY SAILOR. It has just eight 5/8" bolts.


To suggest that a Morris can't take ocean sailing is simply laughable to anyone who actually knows boat construction. As one who has been to both a "production boat" factory and the Morris yard, Able, Hinckley, Lyman-Morse etc. etc. etc.. it makes this even more amusing..

As an owner who has owned three "production" boats and who currently owns a CS, which was a higher level of production build quality, I can assure you there is little comparison in the robustness of build between our three production boats and the CS..

There are differences in construction techniques & how the boat feels on the ocean. Our CS-36 is significantly kinder than our C-36 was, so much so that even my wife who is not the most "observant" sailor constantly ribs me as to how we owned three of them..... I still like them but the creaking bulkheads in rough seas gave her an uneasy feeling. I can talk till I am blue in the face about how the boat is not coming apart but once she sailed on a boat with no creaking, done deal, and I've lost the WAF (wife acceptance factor) battle.. We have no such creaking or bulkhead/hull movement noises on the CS, none, even on a 33 year old boat. There are also differences in how the boats handle age/time over the long term. Being that I work on boats daily and get to see all the nooks and crannies I also see how boats of differing levels of build quality hold up to things like crazing, leaks, bulkhead movement, tabbing pops, rudder slop, chain plate leaks, hull deck joint leaks, stringer oooze/rot, keel smiles etc. etc.....

This is not to say a "production boat" can't do extended voyaging, they certainly can and do, but having owned three of them, delivered a number of others and had a bulkhead let go on one delivery, for which the owner tried to come after me on, I choose my boats a little differently now than I used to. This is admittedly partially driven by WAF on such things as "she feels Chloroxy" or "this boat won't creek & shudder when going to weather, right?"...

On our last "production boat" the screwed in bulkhead had some major issues that needed repair and this only after a season of ownership. The factory was very good about it but my wife was very uncomfortable and basically said "this is our last *******"..... Half the deck fittings were leaking after the first season.. Hell I really like the Catalina 42 but I know WAF would kill me on one....
 
#152 ·
A. OCEAN: Designed for extended voyages where conditions may exceed wind force 8 (Beaufort scale) and significant wave heights of 4 m and above, and vessels largely self-sufficient.

B. OFFSHORE: Designed for offshore voyages where conditions up to, and including, wind force 8 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 4 m may be experienced.

C. INSHORE: Designed for voyages in coastal waters, large bays, estuaries, lakes and rivers where conditions up to, and including, wind force 6 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 2 m may be experienced.

D. SHELTERED WATERS: Designed for voyages on small lakes, rivers, and canals where conditions up to, and including, wind force 4 and significant wave heights up to, and including, 0,5 m may be experienced.
Boats in each Category must be designed and constructed to withstand these parameters in respect of stability, buoyancy, and other relevant essential requirements listed in Annex I, and to have good handling characteristics.

Regards

Paulo
 
#166 · (Edited)
Maine,

I may have the wrong size, but Morris does build, or had plans to build a 50' version of the 36' daysailer. If they did or did not is not the point. The whole line is designed as a daysailer/weekender. They are not designed to cross oceans!

Looked it up MY52 there is also a 29, 36, and 42 versions.

Morris DOES HAVE boats that will and HAVE sailed the 7 sea's, but this series is NOT designed to sail the 7 sea's!

Marty
 
#180 · (Edited)
I think I could learn to live with that RM1260. :cool:

I think I'd prefer that "structure" in something other than galvanized steel though - that has a proven history of problems. I think I'd pay the price for aluminium or SS or something better.
 
#181 ·
The structure you are talking about is only the keel structure. I sailed the previous model the 1200, a great boat that is used by the French mainly as a voyage boat. The stability is really outstanding. The RM are around for many years and the fact that they had not been affected by the crisis, having increased sales and the very high resale value (if you can find one) are a measure of the solidity and quality of their boats.

There are not many around, if compared with mass production boats but they are everywhere even the smaller models. Some blogs:

La baltique en RM 10.50: Arrivée en Finlande, en voilier ou en camping-car ?
Pikourous au soleil

Sabay Dii

AMENAGEMENT | LES AVENTURES DU VOILIER "TIMELI" RM 10.50

Les aventures du voilier Kalinu

Le blog de su cantu 'e su entu.over-blog.com

Pingouin Tropical

Le bateau - bel ami

Tranquila 2009 -> 2011

juin « 2007 « harem

Here you have the smaller model:



Regards

Paulo
 
#183 ·
Continue to be in awe of the experiences of our senior members but have a question. Given some of us head south early November and north come hurricane season to satisfy the insurance pukes what's your suggested tactic for the typical cruising couple when it gets sticky. ?Hoving to ?Running with series drogue. Please speak to "modern" sloops/solents v. cutters/ketches. In my limited experience if there is adequate searoom dropping everything - deploying a drogue and waiting it out below when there is only two aboard is safest. Going on deck only to check for chafe and make sure nothing shook loose seems to be best. Would think the overly broad sterns and the fact the current generation of production boats float on the water instead of in it make either tactic more problematic. See alot of boats with no trysail nor storm jib. On many of the production boats noted in this thread seems difficult to rig these sails. Is is safe to be dependent on a triple reefed main and rolled up headsail?
 
#184 · (Edited)
.... .... See alot of boats with no trysail nor storm jib. On many of the production boats noted in this thread seems difficult to rig these sails. Is is safe to be dependent on a triple reefed main and rolled up headsail?
A mass production cruiser comes rigged for what most people use the boat: Coastal cruising, simply be causes it is less expensive to rig it that way and anyway most people would not need more than that so, why waist money?

There are some production cruisers, like the Rm and the Allures and other voyage boats that come already with a cutter rig plus a place for a removable geenaker or code 0 on a furler. Boats like that point to clients that want boats already prepared for blue water cruising, so that makes sense but, off course, makes the boats more expensive.

Almost all modern cruisers of 36ft and over have the needed stability and can be adapted for blue water cruising. If you want and ask for that, the factory or the dealer in conjunction with the factory, will do it. That can assume a fixed cutter configuration or more commonly a removable textile stay with a tensioner that can be mounted in seconds or even be mounted before bad time arrives (just some seconds). On that stay you can mount a smaller front sail (if you have mounted on the furler a big genoa) or a storm sail.

The ones that use the boat only in coastal condition with an occasional small passage use many times a stormbag sail, or the american equivalent, to mount over the furled genoa if needed.

Regards

Paulo
 
#185 ·
See alot of boats with no trysail nor storm jib. On many of the production boats noted in this thread seems difficult to rig these sails. Is is safe to be dependent on a triple reefed main and rolled up headsail?
There's new technology and old technology and its up to you what you want to go for.
I have been sailing all my life and the new technology is vastly superior IMHO.

Even if I was sailing the Antartic I would still have the same sail rig as a modern production boat, better than mine only in that I would want in mast furling for the main.

Mark
 
#186 ·
Even if I was sailing the Antartic I would still have the same sail rig as a modern production boat, better than mine only in that I would want in mast furling for the main.

Mark
... interesting.... I'd have thought with potentially harsher conditions one would not necessarily want the added potential complication.
 
#189 ·
IMHP most of the furling problems are owner caused IF for no other reason the time necessary to use the systems in adverse conditions is NOT put in until its to late ?

The Cal 29 came with a first generation hood stoboom which is supposed to be the worst thing ever made :)

The wife and myself took are time getting to know it during the first season, put it good working order and it performance is great and i would think the new booms must be really good



I spliced in a new line following Knotheads excellent instructions and made sure all the blocks were good



Once you mark the topping lift for the happy angle the sail can be rolled standing in the cockpit in 15 seconds to a size that balances out with the Genoa and the boat gets happy and just tracks
 
#196 ·
Thanks for the 20 plus pages ! I am new and trying to digest all this and learn. Can I ask for stability, do sailers have a world index for each type of boat? ISO 12217 ? Categogy A,B,C, 1,2,3 ? Do they hide this data? I was looking at the Chicargo to Mac. race. They are trying to make a (safe) boat rule. Is there a way to put a stamp or number to every boat to judge apples to apples ? You have upright and inverse stablity. You can build a huge pencil put a weight on the bottom a sail on the top. It will have a large phrf and not out run the weather. It will not capsize. Should I have some easy way to know this? THANKS, LOU
 
#198 ·
I was looking at the Chicargo to Mac. race. They are trying to make a (safe) boat rule.
Like the Fastnet race tragedy? That race series was won first, second and Thrid by Australian boats.

So look at Sydney Hobart race tragedy in 1999 that race was won on handicap by a Beneteau.

So figures misrepresented on the Internet mean diddly-squat.

My take is modern is better. Everyone else says old is better, complicated is better, expensive is better.

You figure it out :)
 
#200 ·
Ask yourself this......can my boat meet the European cat A requirements that I posted earlier, and can you meet the ISAF off shore racing requirements......while not exact, still a reasonable copy can be found in cat 1 HERE! If so, you should be reasonably set for an offshore passage, in the boat of your choosing. Be it a production, one of the Morris daysailors I posted earlier about, or one of the offshore boats they build, or what ever the brand it may be be be it a true one off custom, semi custom ie Morris, or true production style boat.

To go off shore, takes a brain cell or two, unlike some of us with one brain electron.....

In the mean time, seaslugs won today, so off to the playoffs they go!:D:D:D:D I'm trying to figure out what I have here at home that I took off my 25 yr old Jeanneau, put it back on new years day, hopefully go for a sail, after taking of the 2800 or so xmas lights!

Marty
 
#203 · (Edited)
Okay, after debating this issue for lo these many pages, and after deep genuflection on all the salient points made herein, I've come to a startling conclusion...

Production cruising boats will handle virtually any conditions on the ocean (aside from the true extremities). If you, as the sailor of said boat, can deal with said conditions, the boat will very likely not fail you.

Catalina, Hunter, Beneteau, Jenneau, whatever....it will keep you afloat just fine...if you've got the stones to ride it out.

Well, I guess that settles that. Now what?

(PS - I might be missing the large body of data that proves this conclusion wrong...but I've sure not seen anything like that. So, I gotta go with the facts.)
 
#206 ·
Well let me wish all of you a happy New Year ! Thank you for your post ! I enjoy and like to see more that one side. I learn more when you all pick a different point of view. It is like a book that is interactive. I saw some of the 2012 volvo ocean race on netflix just the other day. It was kind of nice in some ways to see the pros have some issues, Sails getting jammed and such. They move the keels. Any Non-pros doing this?? It might be good for me to see some take it easy lay back and relax type of sailing. My next read will come off the book thread hear at sailnet. Maybe Adlard Coles, Nigel Calder , John V. , Gregg Nestor They will not take a question like you all. I like to hear about the one off custom boats... What a production boat can do.. Unless I am blessed beyond my dreams the one off custom boat will be out of my reach :-( Wish you all - skill, and great plans for the new year, Lou
 
#208 ·
... They move the keels. Any Non-pros doing this?? It might be good for me to see some take it easy lay back and relax type of sailing. ..
I like to hear about the one off custom boats... What a production boat can do.. Unless I am blessed beyond my dreams the one off custom boat will be out of my reach :-( Wish you all - skill, and great plans for the new year, Lou
Yes there are some cruisers having canting keels on their boats but they are very rich cruisers and normally on big yachts. One of the smaller that use it is that JP52 that I posted some posts back with a movie.

Not much to know about its use. The really reason they are not used on production boats is cost that is proportionally higher on a small boat than in a big yacht.

However there are some not very expensive racers using them and I mean racing minis. They cant them by hand but again not any that is a production boat either, at least to my knowledge.

A good year to you also and to all.

Regards

Paulo
 
#211 ·
My boat is Ocean "A" rated. For 13 passengers no less, which is comical. That's a ridiculous crowd for a day sail on the Bay.

Nevertheless, I admit, she will pound the fillings out of your teeth, if beating to windward with steep seas. She sails fast, is pretty stable in heavy wind, has an AVS of 116 and a reasonably protected, but drainable cockpit. I think she has every reason to qualify as a reasonable ocean passage platform. However, her big flat bottom and plumb bow are undoubtedly to provide for plenty of interior space and that clearly comes a some price. It's a price I'm willing to pay, as the conditions she might suffer in are very infrequent for our use. To date, I've had hundreds of dinner down below and guest aboard at some beautiful New England anchorage. When we cross to Bermuda, we might wish for a more sea kindliness, but think our production boat will do fine. The irony is, even serious ocean travelers seem to spend more time coastal cruising than crossing oceans.
 
#215 ·
I am continually amazed at people making statements about passage making capabilities of their production yachts. Capsize ratios and stability indexes don't tell the whole story. Construction details are overlooked in these. When your hull is oil canning like crazy, your hatches leaking due to flex in your cabin top, and your bulkheads are coming loose from their tabbing all those ratios don't mean a thing. It still comes down to where you are sailing. If you get caught in some bad weather hitting the gulfstream or one of the stream's eddies that trip to Bermuda just might be a little more than your boat can handle. Running your engine to get out of trouble can have some issues also.

I used to think a lot like most of the posters here. After I experienced a 3 day gale (35 to 55 knots true, braking 20-25 foot seas, short duration waves) in the North Atlantic way offshore my opinions have changed. Dropping off a 20 foot wave repeatedly changes your perspective on boat construction. The custom built aluminum pilothouse I was in survived this with no damage. It probably was due to the ring frames, longitudinal stringers, crash bulkheads, engine in a a gasketed watertight compartment etc. Our friends, in a well found production boat one day behind us, detoured to Bermuda to miss most of the storm. In the 24 hours they were in it they endured major structural damage to their boat with crew injuries. The hull flexed like crazy, bulkheads separated, the nav station separated from the hull, the sole broke etc. They survived but the boat was a total loss. Their boat, an Ericson 46, had some pretty good numbers, was well maintained, and well equipped. Specifications for the Ericson 46
LOA 45.8 ft. LOD 45.8 ft.
LWL 35.0 ft. Beam 13.2 ft.
Draft 7.2 ft. Displaces 31,500 lbs.
Ballast 16,500 lbs. Sail Area 1,064.0 sq. ft.
Performance Indicators
D/L 328 B/D52 % SA/D 17.1
Comfort 39.1 Capsize 1.67 L/B 3.5

Bottom line, you can sail around the world in most production boats. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time most of the boats can get you into trouble. If you are sailing offshore of the east coast of US your chance of encountering those wrong places is pretty good in the spring and late fall when low pressure systems coming across the continental US are unpredictable. I'm not saying that most production boats won't make it and aren't suitable for passage making, it is just that there are risks involved. Some boats aren't suited for those extremely rough conditions that we all hope we don't encounter.
 
#229 ·
I am continually amazed at people making statements about passage making capabilities of their production yachts. Capsize ratios and stability indexes don't tell the whole story. Construction details are overlooked in these. When your hull is oil canning like crazy, your hatches leaking due to flex in your cabin top, and your bulkheads are coming loose from their tabbing all those ratios don't mean a thing. It still comes down to where you are sailing. If you get caught in some bad weather hitting the gulfstream or one of the stream's eddies that trip to Bermuda just might be a little more than your boat can handle. Running your engine to get out of trouble can have some issues also.

I used to think a lot like most of the posters here. After I experienced a 3 day gale (35 to 55 knots true, braking 20-25 foot seas, short duration waves) in the North Atlantic way offshore my opinions have changed. Dropping off a 20 foot wave repeatedly changes your perspective on boat construction. The custom built aluminum pilothouse I was in survived this with no damage. It probably was due to the ring frames, longitudinal stringers, crash bulkheads, engine in a a gasketed watertight compartment etc. Our friends, in a well found production boat one day behind us, detoured to Bermuda to miss most of the storm. In the 24 hours they were in it they endured major structural damage to their boat with crew injuries. The hull flexed like crazy, bulkheads separated, the nav station separated from the hull, the sole broke etc. They survived but the boat was a total loss. Their boat, an Ericson 46, had some pretty good numbers, was well maintained, and well equipped. Specifications for the Ericson 46
LOA 45.8 ft. LOD 45.8 ft.
LWL 35.0 ft. Beam 13.2 ft.
Draft 7.2 ft. Displaces 31,500 lbs.
Ballast 16,500 lbs. Sail Area 1,064.0 sq. ft.
Performance Indicators
D/L 328 B/D52 % SA/D 17.1
Comfort 39.1 Capsize 1.67 L/B 3.5

Bottom line, you can sail around the world in most production boats. If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time most of the boats can get you into trouble. If you are sailing offshore of the east coast of US your chance of encountering those wrong places is pretty good in the spring and late fall when low pressure systems coming across the continental US are unpredictable. I'm not saying that most production boats won't make it and aren't suitable for passage making, it is just that there are risks involved. Some boats aren't suited for those extremely rough conditions that we all hope we don't encounter.
With respect, I'm not sure I understand your basis for these conclusions. First of all, many people look at an Ericson as an example of the kind of boat that is so much better than today's production boats. I always find that kind of thing hilarious, as Ericson's, C&C's, Irwins, Cal., etc., were the production boats of their day, yet critics of today's boats regularly point to those as examples of how a boat ought to be constructed.

More importantly, however, as far as I know, I don't believe there are mass reports of production boats collapsing in on themselves during offshore passages up and down the U.S. east coast. Please don't misunderstand my comment as suggesting that they are the best, most hardily built boats, or that they're "better" than higher-end boats, or have a better motion at sea than other designs. But the suggestion that the bulkheads collapse, hatches pop out, etc., particularly while plying the waters up and down the U.S. east coast as you suggest, does not seem supportable to me.

Not picking a fight, just seizing on something that I see as a bit of an extreme position.

Respectfully,
 
#219 ·
Jon,

While not an ICW, they do have some canals that can be toured on over there, many are motorized barges, or smaller sailboats with masts that can be brought down by one or two people. So to a degree, many boats are designed to handle the waterways that one sails on. There is probably also a reason why on the west coast of Wa and OR as to why it is called the graveyard of the pacific too! While cape Hatteras has sunk a number of boats, the columbia river bar has sunk a lot, as have some of the other bars, and the rocky coast with no where to hide per say. The east coast from what I can tell would be a cake walk to sail/motor up and down as compared to this side of NA.

Marty
 
#222 ·
I've decided my production boat is fully capable and I'm leaving now!! Who's coming?

Of course, we just finished dinner and a couple bottles of great wine and are heading down to our favorite local for a cocktail (walking distance), so I should consider this again in the morning.

Happy New Year all !!!!
 
#227 ·
Since age has come up. Do we see production sailboats trying to appeal to a muture crowd ? More comfort easy to sail with less crew. Is the mean age for the average sailor on the rise. Is this due to less disposable income across the world. Is it TV. potato chips, I phones, I pads, PC chat tweets taking time interest and funds away from sailing? Who buys and sails the boats in blue water? Will humans keep sailing in blue water? Per capita are the numbers going up or down? boat yards will follow the trend ?> It would be hard to lead or make a trend. Build a boat and they will come. I put a lot of questions together. I think they are related. Regards Lou
 
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