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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Retractable Bowsprit DIY
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Topic Review (Newest First)
01-15-2013 10:12 AM
knuterikt
Re: Furler for Asymmetric and Code 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Just curious, how would one "disable" the top swivel to convert your present system to a top-down furler?

Seems to me the only way these top-down systems work, is to have the dedicated bottom furling drum, where the tack attachment swivels independently of the torsion line... What am I missing, here?
On the Facnor AFX system there are two swivels
Top swivel is kind of strange
The torsion rope is fixed at one end, at the other end the halyard is attached, allowing the torsion (anti twist) rope to turn without turning the halyard.
The head of the sail is attached to a dyneema strop that rotates on a bearing on the outside of the swivel housing.
So when you furl, the torsion rope is turning but halyard and head of sail is standing still.

At the tack end the torsion stiff rope is fixed to the furling drum, so it rotates when the drum is operated.

The tack of the sail is attached to a dyneema strop that rotates on a bearing on the furler drum (same as head).

The asymmetric has a thin dyneema line attached to the luff - mid height (central furling line) that is also attached to the torsion stiff rope.

So when you furl the sail the dyneema line is furled and the sail is furled from mid luff.

So if I prevent the head attachment from swiveling I have the same top down system as Selden, Bamar and others use, just interested to find out what works best (w/o buying new kit).

Documentation here http://www.facnor.com/uk/technical_s...ns_2012_uk.pdf

Tack of the asymmetric


Head of the asymmetric


Tack of the Code 0


Head of the code 0 with the standard top swivel.


Furler in the position used for the Solent jib



Maybee video's is better

Facnor ASYM-FX (at 0:27 you can spot the central furling line)

Bamar top down furler

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonEisberg View Post
Nice looking boat, btw.... What is she?
Beneteau First 38
01-15-2013 08:24 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Furler for Asymmetric and Code 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuterikt View Post

The Facnor system use a central furling line attached half way up the luff going to the torsion stiff rope. I have no experience with the top down furler - but I will try next summer (I only have to disable the top swivel with a dyneema lashing to convert)

Just curious, how would one "disable" the top swivel to convert your present system to a top-down furler?

Seems to me the only way these top-down systems work, is to have the dedicated bottom furling drum, where the tack attachment swivels independently of the torsion line... What am I missing, here?

Nice looking boat, btw.... What is she?
01-14-2013 06:37 PM
knuterikt
Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
I see. So ur basically setting up like u would the symmetrical spinnaker, except you have one extra line, the tack line. (Foreguy/after guy is the same as guy and spin sheet, right?)
I have a usual spinnaker boom setup for dip poole gybe. (Topping lift, Foreguy/downhaul and Pole heel lift)

There are six lines on the sail;
The four standard lines for asymmetric (halyard, adjustable tack, sheet x 2 rigged for outside gybe)
+ guys x 2 attached to the tack (the furler in my case).
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
Sort of eliminates the point of a cruising asymmetrical though, which is to simplify downwind sailing. By the time I set this up for my cruiser, I might as well just throw up the symmetric and have less complication to deal with!
Don't know if I agree with you.
Setting the asymmetric.
-clip furler onto tack line & guy's (use soft shacles to attach guy's so they can also be rigged after the sail i set)
-clip on halyard
-From cockpit
-Tighten tack (done by hand) to pull the furler out on the end of the bowsprit
-Hoist
-Unfurl while taking in on active sheet

If I need to use the spinnaker pole (normally light conditions DDW).
-set spinnaker boom on mast
-Put the windward guy in the jaw if the spinnaker pole
-Adjust Topping lift & Foreguy
-Winch in on guy while easing tack

To gybe (can do the hole gybe w/o leaving the cockpit)
-ease the guy while winching the tack tight (cabin top winch)
-Stabilize the spinnaker boom using Foreguy & topping lift
-Execute a standard outside gybe
-rest pole if needed on new tack.

I use this for cruising, seldom sail straight lines - normally I sail different courses with the asymmetric up.
So this give me a wider usable angle in which I can use the asymmetric.
-No need to switch between spinnaker/asymmetric
-On less sail to carry and spend money on
-Fore deck work with boom only when I need/want it

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
Still, it allows deeper angles for those with asyms so it's cool in that sense. Eliminates the only advantage that symmetrical kites hav on the race course. I haven't seen one flown off a pole yet at the race course, but maybe I just haven't been looking hard enough. maybe I should pretend I invented the technique ;-)
As i wrote i previous post, there are short hand racers around here who use it for racing.

One reason you haven't seen it on the race course can be
-rating rules
-type of racing (windward / leeward favor symmetrical)
01-14-2013 11:04 AM
peterchech
Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

I see. So ur basically setting up like u would the symmetrical spinnaker, except you have one extra line, the tack line. (Foregut/after guy is the same as guy and spin sheet, right?)

Sort of eliminates the point of a cruising assymetrical though, which is to simplify downwind sailing. By the time I set this up for my cruiser, I might as well just throw up the symmetric and have less complication to deal with!

Still, it allows deeper angles for those with asyms so it's cool in that sense. Eliminates the only advantage that symmetrical kites hav on the race course. I haven't seen one flown off a pole yet at the race course, but maybe I just haven't been looking hard enough. maybe I should pretend I invented the technique ;-)
01-13-2013 07:02 PM
knuterikt
Furler for Asymmetric and Code 0

The question about furler for Asymmetric and Code 0 has been raised in this thread.

I have a Facnor FX2500 with a AFX kit so I can use the same furler for both the Asymmetric and the Code 0.

This is the tack of my Code 0, the bowsprit is in it short position, also notice the bobstay (adjustable) to deal with the extra load of the Code 0


This is the Asymetric on the furler with the AFX (the torsion stiff rope is the black rope going from the furler.
In this picture the tack is eased to get the luff to windward because we sail almost DDW.
The tack has to be hauled in before furling
The Facnor system use a central furling line attached half way up the luff going to the torsion stiff rope. I have no experience with the top down furler - but I will try next summer (I only have to disable the top swivel with a dyneema lashing to convert)


In this picture the have use the spinnaker boom and a afterguy to get the sail to windward - less wind than i the previous picture so that helped fill the sail.
01-13-2013 06:39 PM
knuterikt
Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by SchockT View Post
That's an interesting setup, although 3 minutes, 3 trips to the bow, and leaving the pole loose on the deck for one gybe seems a bit messy to me!

The douse in the second video is what we call a "letter-box drop", and it is a good way to control the chute and keep it from getting fouled on the way down IF you have a loose footed main. Throwing the halyard overboard to ensure it runs smooth works well. I do it once in a while just to get the twists out, but you have to remember to rinse the salt out of it if you care about your halyards!
Don't know why he had to go 3 trips on the fore deck for that gybe.

When I gybe with my asymmetric I do only one trip to shift side for the spinnaker boom (or stow it if not needed on the new tack).

We do letter box drop with the spinnaker regularly on the boat I race on.

The asymmetric on my boat is set in a furler so that's a different game.
01-13-2013 04:43 PM
SchockT
Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

That's an interesting setup, although 3 minutes, 3 trips to the bow, and leaving the pole loose on the deck for one gybe seems a bit messy to me!

The douse in the second video is what we call a "letter-box drop", and it is a good way to control the chute and keep it from getting fouled on the way down IF you have a loose footed main. Throwing the halyard overboard to ensure it runs smooth works well. I do it once in a while just to get the twists out, but you have to remember to rinse the salt out of it if you care about your halyards!
01-13-2013 03:57 PM
knuterikt
Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
A few posters mentioned using the spin pole instead of bothering with a sprit, and that has been mentioned recently on SA as well, but I just don't understand how the tack of the sail is attached to the end of the pole, how the pole is kept from rising up (tweakers? downhaul?), and how it would be jibed. Could someone explain?
There are different ways to do this, there are one short hand sailor here in Norway who is using a system he is calling ASOP (Asymmetric Spinnaker with Oversized Pole)
He is using a spinnaker boom with length J + 1meter.

He uses three lines attached to the tack of the sail.
-Tack line
-Two afterguy's
All three spliced into one snap shackle

The sail is tacked in front of the head stay (the usual way) with a adjustable tack line going to a cabin top winch).

Setting the sail is done as usual.
The pole is set on the windward side the afterguy is put into the spnnaker boom as yuu would do with a spinnaker afterguy.

The tack line is eased and the windward guy is hauled in to pull the tack to windward

Gybing the sail is done in this sequence (outside gybe)
-ease the afterguy while hauling in on the tack
-When the tack is hauled in do the outside gybe
-After the gybe - dip the spinnaker boom and set on new tack

I set my assymetric on a bowsprit but use a normal length spinnaker boom the same way as decribed above to pull the tack to windward for downwind runs.

Here is a video of this gybe

Take down
01-12-2013 11:20 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel H. View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jameswilson29
If you were to design your own sprit, a great feature would be an articulating sprit with the sprit pivoting around the stem area and a curved track on the aft, so you could position it to the gunwale on either leeward side when flying the spinnaker, thus gaining additional valuable projection of the pole to windward.
Wow, that would be trick.
Though on my Cat. 27, if you draw a line parallel to the centerline, between the stem fitting and the foreword pulpit rail stanchion, there isn't a lot of cross-section there. So I don't think I can get much more swing to starboard, presuming I mount it on the port side, than it will take just to get it to intersect the C/L of the boat at a decent projection. That was one reason the teardrop cross-section of the spar, I have, seemed so "ready made".
Yeah, sounds cool in theory, but I just don't see how it's really practicable on anything other than a pure race/sport boat, with an absolute clear foredeck...

I had all I could do to configure using my spinnaker pole as a fixed sprit... With all the additional foredeck clutter found on many recreational boats - large mooring cleats, anchors on rollers, foredeck hatches, windlasses, tenders often stowed on foredecks, etc - it's just not gonna be possible on many boats...
01-12-2013 10:42 AM
JonEisberg
Re: Retractable Bowsprit DIY

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
A few posters mentioned using the spin pole instead of bothering with a sprit, and that has been mentioned recently on SA as well, but I just don't understand how the tack of the sail is attached to the end of the pole, how the pole is kept from rising up (tweakers? downhaul?), and how it would be jibed. Could someone explain?
No different from tacking it anywhere else, though I usually use a soft spectra loup at the pole end for attaching the tack line block... Some might want to add a light line from the shackle trigger back inboard if you need to blow the tack, but I never bother with that, just seems like something else to get fouled...

The use of a foreguy and afterguy is essential, IMO, to really stabilize the outboard end of the pole... With the additional downward pull of the tack line, you should see very little movement of the pole... I'm a big believer in the use of a foreguy and afterguy led back to the cockpit when cruising, especially shorthanded, even with just a whisker pole... FAR less drama, IMHO...

With an inner forestay like mine, jibing is definitely a big production... I basically have to snuff the sail, then re-rig the pole on the other side, and re-set...

Ideally, you want the pole closer to horizontal than in the pic below... On this afternoon in the breeze was coming up to the point where carrying the chute was getting marginal, and I'd just lowered the pole end down from where it had been, in an effort to snug everything up a bit, and minimize the oscillation... but I dropped it pretty soon thereafter, I seem to recall, it was starting to get a bit hairy as the seas began to build a bit more...



Quote:
Originally Posted by peterchech View Post
Just out of curiosity, what kind of angles can one expect from a typical/basic cruising spinnaker tacked to the bow pulpit on an older boat like the op's? Can they be used for light wind beam reaching or even hotter?
Check out the sailmaker's websites, everything you need to know is to be found there...

North Sails: Downwind Sail Performance Guide
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