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No Sea Trial

6K views 33 replies 15 participants last post by  NJBoatDad 
#1 ·
Hi folks,

I just went to look at a boat for possible purchase, Mariner 31. Ok shape, but would need at least a moderate amount of work. This is my first boat purchase.

So here's my question, the seller, who is a private broker (the owner is in california), won't allow me to arrange with her a sea trial without making an offer on the boat first. She insists this is the way it works and won't budge. Is this true? This is my first time at this so I don't know, but it just seems a little funny. Doesn't it seem natural that I would want to see how the boat sails before making an offer????
 
#2 ·
I should also mention that she insists that the sea trial is on the same day of the survey, and then only. While I agree I would definitely like to have the surveyor onboard for a sea trial, it seems reasonable to want to see how the boat handles before making an offer.
 
#3 ·
She is telling you the normal process. Most of the time you can do a visit / inspection but then have to make an offer to proceed to sea trial and survey. You protect yourself by having language in the written offer that gives you the ability to walk away if either the sail or the survey fails to meet your needs.
 
#4 ·
That is how it works.

For starters, owners don't want to put wear and tear on the boat for tire kickers that just want to sail for an hour. Not saying you are, but they can't know.

More importantly, you'll never really get a sense of how she handles on a sea trial anyway. At best, you'll only know how she handles in whatever wind and sea conditions exist on that specific day and there may be no wind or too much wind. Unless you've sailed that particular boat before, you'll spend more time thinking about where the lines are than really paying attention to any subtleties. Sea trials are important, but are intended to insure things work that can't be tested at the dock (furlers, engines under load, gps tracking, autopilot, etc). They are not intended to be test drives, like a car.

You can usually do good research on a particular model's sailing characteristics. If you like what you research and the boat is in good shape, make an offer and press forward.

By the way, it is also common practice that your offer is accompanied by a 10% downpayment, which is fully refundable until you accept the results of the survey at your full discretion. Again, intended to weed out the tire kickers, but be sure you are dealing with a reputable broker. They hold your money. Many never actually cash the check until you accept.
 
#7 ·
More importantly, you'll never really get a sense of how she handles on a sea trial anyway. At best, you'll only know how she handles in whatever wind and sea conditions exist on that specific day and there may be no wind or too much wind. Unless you've sailed that particular boat before, you'll spend more time thinking about where the lines are than really paying attention to any subtleties. Sea trials are important, but are intended to insure things work that can't be tested at the dock (furlers, engines under load, gps tracking, autopilot, etc). They are not intended to be test drives, like a car.
This is spot on!

Think about what equipment is on the boat that you would need to test at a sea trial.

My first boat had new sails, and a new roller furler when I bought it. Nothing else; no GPS, no auto pilot, no engine driven refrigeration, etc. The bottom had been cleaned and the keel bolts replaced a week before (but that's another thread). I had been out on demo sail on a sistership a month or so before, so I knew how she should have sailed.

Here is a pic taken during the "sea-trial";

That's the surveyor on the foredeck.

Therefore, the "sea-trials" consisted of bringing the boat from a mooring to the dock, then, running the engine in gear while tied to the dock. We ran the engine up to operating temp, and ran her at WOT in fwd and rev.
 
#5 · (Edited)
...This is my first boat purchase.

So here's my question, the seller, who is a private broker (the owner is in california), won't allow me to arrange with her a sea trial without making an offer on the boat first...Doesn't it seem natural that I would want to see how the boat sails before making an offer????
Yes. You can structure this transaction however you please. It is all negotiable. She is merely establishing the fact that she will be in control of the transaction and you will do as she pleases. It will not just end there, you will never regain the control that you should have as a buyer. She knows better than you that buying a boat is an emotional decision, so she expects you to throw reason out the window like most folks do.

Why let someone lead you around by the nose during one of the strongest buyer's market ever experienced?

Available boats are a dime a dozen now. Find another boat with a reasonable, motivated seller. Buy from a private seller who is not a broker. Don't allow anyone to tell you, "This is how we always do it."
 
#6 · (Edited)
james , he always has "control as a buyer"
He has the cash and he can walk.
I am a little concerned to hear an attorney say "it is all negotiable"
That's bad advice, counselor.
You imply that there may be other brokers out there who provide cruises on OPBs without an offer and earnest money in hand. Doubtful, unless you know one or two, in the buyer's area, who do so. I don't.
A broker is like a realtor- there are constraints on how the offer is structured, whether by law or association practice.


Having said that, the others are also correct- you want a sea trial, make an offer.
A sea trial without an offer is a joyride.
This is not like buying a used car, where the car is simply sitting in the garage/parking lot, no prep time is required, the test drive takes 5 minutes, etc.
If you were buying a house, the realtor would not let you live in it over night, take a shower, have it inspected, etc., without an offer, no matter how bad the market is.

If you want to sail before you buy, i suggest you buy privately.
 
#8 ·
She wants him to "have some skin in the game", meaning - some cash spent and at risk - so he completes the sale. Once the buyer spends money for a haul out and a survey and all the recommended inspections (engine, rigging, etc.), there is more of an incentive to make the most out of this transaction instead of walking.

Who you choose to deal with is probably the most important step in a sales transaction. Act as if you have power and you will have power. Do not deal with someone who immediately wants to subordinate you. Find a motivated seller, not someone who immediately wants to take control.
 
#9 ·
James,...
You've never been in sales, have you?
A good broker is always in control, but also gets the buyer a boat and a deal that he/she is happy with.
A broker who lets the buyer dictate all the terms ends up with TWO unhappy people, both the buyer and the seller. This is usually where lawyers get involved.

If i was a seller, which is why i have hired a broker, I want the broker to do my qualifying for me, not simply be a tour guide. I don't want a broker essentially lending out my boat once or twice a week to folks who
a) have no money
b) can't get financed
c) are looking for a boat like mine and want to try mine out to see if they like it



As a seller I want prospects to be qualified, so yeah, "skin in the game" is a requirement.
You know what they call brokers who can't control the process?
Former brokers.
 
#10 · (Edited)
...I want the broker to do my qualifying for me, not simply be a tour guide. I don't want a broker essentially lending out my boat once or twice a week to folks who
a) have no money
b) can't get financed
c) are looking for a boat like mine and want to try mine out to see if they like it

As a seller I want prospects to be qualified, so yeah, "skin in the game" is a requirement.
You know what they call brokers who can't control the process?
Former brokers.
I totally agree with you on pre-qualifying the buyer. Show me the money. If you intend to pay cash, show me a bank statement or investment account statement showing liquid assets. If you will finance, show me a pre-approval for a loan for a hypothetical purchase, or at least an application with credit pull.

As a seller, if a potential buyer shows me financial ability and a proposed sales contract, I will take the potential buyer out for a sail/sea trial without the deposit and scheduled survey. Tire kickers will not show financials. Money talks, bullsheet walks.

As a buyer, I passed up one boat I inspected with a broker who would not let me start the engine and another who was too busy to schedule me in. Others will treat you the way you allow them to. Stand up for yourself buyers.
 
#11 ·
If you willing to open your books, you should certainly be willing to leave a deposit.

Further, most folks don't have an audited financial statement at hand, or a tax assessment handy, and few would want to divulge that info to a broker, but most folks keep their credit cards or chequebook with them.

And, quite frankly, if i was a broker, i'd still want a deposit.
Bernie Madoff had a pretty good set of financials to show prospective clients.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Actually, my transaction was quite simple. Submitted written list of questions and proposed contract to seller. Seller answered questions in writing and approved proposed contract. Inspection by me and sail with owner. Signed contract with deposit on the spot. Survey by marine surveyor. Re-negotiate contract for unseen deficiency revealed by survey. Closing with cash, no problems. Sail away to new marina. Seller buys bigger boat he wants. Everyone is happy.

The seller was a reasonable man, also a lawyer. We were both familiar with using contracts and negotiating. We both recognized motivation on the other's part and appreciated having someone who knew what he was doing and who also wanted to complete the deal. We both got what we wanted out of the transaction. Win-win situation with no demanding and/or deceptive broker (pretending to be an expert) in the middle.
 
#15 · (Edited)
I searched on yachtworld.com, sailboatlistings.com, eBay and Craigslist. I contacted various sellers and 3 brokers from all different sources. I found my boat on Craigslist. The description and photos were accurate, the ad language was realistic and appropriate, and I felt comfortable with the transaction from the start.

Some of the other ads scream "deceptive seller" from the start. Some of the broker ads scream "let me bullsheet you" from the start. I want to deal with someone who is direct and upright. I am direct and upright. All boats have problems. It is o.k. to have differences or to disagree. Don't tell me I will be buying a perfect boat or show me blurry photos with throw pillows, placemats and wine glasses in place. I was not a tire kicker and I was not going to waste my time; I also was not going to waste the seller's time. The seller shared his survey with me and showed me some recommendations he had corrected.
 
#16 ·
Bottom line will be that you do not get yourself involved in a transaction you do not feel comfortable with. And a false sense of security does not count.

Yacht brokers, like real estate agents, have no special powers. They are not lawyers. They will do nothing to protect you. They dish out legalese and pass out pre-printed forms as if... But alas no.

How many real estate agents and yacht brokers will advise you NOT to use a lawyer? I dare say the majority.

Now that I said my peace, there are a few good brokers out there. You will know when you come across one.

And when you hand over a deposit check for several thousand dollars don't expect it to be a magic boomerang check that will find it's way back to you the second you ask for it. Be prepared for a fight.

Caveat emptor
 
#18 ·
No, willy, a boat broker is not a roller skating rink, you can't just go out and play. The purpose of a sea trial is not to figure out whether a boat sails nicely, but to find out if there are any problems which you can't detect at the dock, such as an engine that smokes under load, overheats, or instruments that black out when heeled on starboard tack.

You are expected to go out and beg, borrow, steal, charter, crew on other boats to figure out what handles nicely, because no sea trial will really tell you that anyway. Not unless you stay out long enough to experience two-knot calms and eight-foot seas with 40 knots all in the same say.

She's asking for your offer and deposit because that eliminate the tire kickers. Unlike BaskinRobbins, boat brokers don't give out free samples. Sea trials mean a major investment of time and money (and risks, if you break the boat or run it aground or hit something) so they're just not done before there's money on the table.
 
#23 ·
That hour on the water is another hour drive to the boat, probably 30 mins to prep for castoff and then another hour to rinse down and button her back up. Then drive an hour home.

Keep your $200. I would only spend 4.5 hours of my life, if I had reason to believe you were a serious buyer. Its a huge part of a work day, which may cost more. Or too much of a weekend.

The game is supply and demand. If you will only buy a boat that allows a pre-offer sea-trial, then you've defined a substantially smaller supply. That's okay, if its okay with you.
 
#21 ·
For $0, you can LOOK at the boat. (inside and outside). You can LOOK at the sails, and LOOK at the engine.

With a deposit, and a signed P&S agreement, you can start the engine and have the boat inspected by an accredited surveyor. Hatches can be opened, and stuff removed from the lockers. You can play with the electronics. However, unless you are a licensed captain, you CANNOT take the helm and putter about the marina, unless the owner offers you to do so. In my case, the owner brought the boat over to the sling, for the short haul and pressure wash.

After the closing, you can do anything that you want.
 
#22 ·
James, owner/broker/seller doesn't matter. When you go to buy a car, you can get a test ride--but not for the expensive or limited production cars. The dealers don't like cleaning off the slobber, it makes the car harder to sell.

When you go to buy a boat, you don't get a test ride. It isn't a rental agency. No one is going to give you a $200 test ride, because they are not in the rental business and they have no insurance for that line of business. Not the owner, not the broker.

And that's forgetting the fact that they've not going to waste their time.

It just isn't done that way. Is everything negotiable? Sure. Try offering $2000 for the charter ride instead of $200, and you might get the boat for the whole weekend. And if they don't have insurance for charters, you're still not going to get it at any price, unless someone wants to play fast and loose.

That's how you take a test ride in a boat, you charter one. And the broker doesn't waste their time prepping and cleaning and re-stowing, close their office, or anything else.

An hour or two on a boat? All that tells you is whether it leaks and how the stereo works.
 
#29 ·
My preference is to buy from a private seller, when possible. For this use Craigslist.org and sailboatlistings.com to find private sellers. I sold my boat fast on Sailboatlistings.com and can't imagine what a broker could have added other than cost.

I find that when a private seller is happy to take you out, it says a lot about his confidence in the condition of the boat.
 
#31 ·
All this advice is great. A broker listing the boat is working for the seller. The surveyors you hire should be independent, contacted and hired independently, and they are working to protect you.

So it's buyer + surveyor vs. broker + seller.

At any time, as buyer, you can walk away. Clarify that when you open your wallet or checkbook for the deposits. But be prepared to shovel out $$$ for the deposit and surveyor and if the boat is lifted, which it should be. I never really heard of a surveyor going on the sea trial, but it's an added security-measure if he obliges.

Good luck!
 
#32 ·
...I never really heard of a surveyor going on the sea trial, but it's an added security-measure if he obliges...
It would be most common that the surveyor go on the seal trial and the buyer is optional. That was the case for my current boat. I was 500 miles away during the sea trial. How would the surveyor complete their report, if they weren't along?
 
#33 ·
Ok, first off a broker works for themselves. They are happy when boats sell and they get referrals. Not many people leave a good boat deal with both sides feeling happy, but if after a while when the emotions subside, the two parties are enjoying the rewards of the trade, life is good.

When I sold my previous boat, it got old dealing with tire kickers. So when I bought my next boat i went in with a feeler email to see how motivated the seller was, then I low balled and put few restrictions (no survey or test sail) on the purchase agreement. I just asked for the boat to start and that it floated and that everything listed in the ad was there.

Do your research, and if you want to buy it, enter the negotiations well equipped with what the boat is worth and put pressure on the seller. Believe me, the market puts a lot of pressure on them anyways.

But the owner in this case owns the boat, she can do what ever she wants with it.
 
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