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01-27-2013 11:12 PM
Re: Why I like a full keel

Jeff, I'm sorry but you appear to be the paranoid one becomes more and more apparent as the thread goes on. You must not realize how silly it sounds to try and justify a statement like the one you made. Here off the Oregon coast during crab season (like now) I go sailing in crab pots so thick that it is just about impossible to avoid them. Last weekend I sailed over at least 2 of them. The crab pots here have two floats attached by a line about 10 long. I sailed between the two on one the line would have run under the keel literally scraping the bottom of the boat from stem to stern. No problem.
If I had been in anything with an exposed prop between keel and rudder I would have been in trouble.
Oh yes, and if I had wrapped a line, my prop is only about 2' below the water line... not directly under the boat which would necessitate a dive under the boat.

Are you just being obtuse?
01-27-2013 06:36 PM
Re: Why I like a full keel

Placing the prop in close proximity to the keel seems to work to keep the prop from being fouled. I have a swing keel boat with a retractable spade rudder that draws less than 2 ft with everything up. Knowing that the owners would go in harm's way, the designer used a skeg to protect the prop in shallow water, but it also seems to be very effective in avoiding fouling from lobster and crab pot lines.

We sailed the boat home to Mystic from Clearwater Beach, FL. That trip was about 1700 miles and included the Chesapeake. We've since been to Maine twice, where it can be a challenge to avoid the lobster gear and we also have lobster pots in local waters. In the 17 years I've owned SeaScape, we've never snagged a line on the prop.

When we were having the boat commissioned in FL, I inquired about Spurs, but the yard manager told me I'd be wasting my money because of the skeg design. He was right.

That said, my experience verifies the claim that the typical full keeler would likely have next to zero problems with lines fouling the prop.

BTW, should I hit anything hard with my 3000 lb swing keel, which is fully retracted here, there would be some damage to the leading edge, but it would kick up to mitigate any other damage. (We could get into a whole other discussion on this category of keel!)
01-27-2013 05:48 PM
Re: Why I like a full keel

Jeff H,

In your post above, you've just repeated what you said before, that you once caught a line in a full keeler. No one has said that this is impossible and no one has said that you were lying that it happened, only that it is improbable and far more improbable with a full keel than in a typical fin keeler. As to why, I've already stated a few reasons why and I will not repeat myself ad nauseum as is so common in internet message boards.

As far as the damage question goes, I would concede that going aground, at speed, into a gently sloping reef would likely damage a skeg, or keel hung rudder before a spade. However in this situation, you also would have to contend with potential hull and keel damage of that same grounding on a fin keel, so I would say it's a wash.

What I wouldn't say was a wash is the likelihood of a catastrophic rudder failure of a spade. It's just simple engineering, two attachment points are better than one, especially when the one is at one end of a moment arm that is subject to lateral dynamic forces. That doesn't mean it's likely that one will fall off, I would say that it's very, very unlikely if it's a well designed system. But it doesn't matter how well designed a given spade rudder attachment system is, if you take that same system and put a second, reinforced attachment point on the bottom, it will be stronger, and infinitely less likely to fall off completely.

Still, I'm not saying I wouldn't go to sea with a spade rudder. I have, a few times, and I was never "paranoid" about it. But I wouldn't want you going to sea with the false sense of security that you have the most secure system of rudder attachment.
01-26-2013 04:49 PM
Re: Why I like a full keel

Originally Posted by SloopJonB View Post
I totally disagree with your actions in selling Indian.

What a gorgeous boat. I guess you wanted to sail in under 10 Knots of wind.
I must say that I really loved that old boat. She sailed very well. My Dad kept her after I went off to get my masters degree and then sold her when he began spending more time on maintaining her than sailing. A young couple had her for years and went all over with her, and she even showed up here on the Chesapeake for several years. At last report she had been in a boat shed in Florida or Georgia for several years and was up for sale in WoodenBoat.

I always described her light air performance as graceful. One of the things that almost never gets discussed is the the difference between a boat that sails well, vs a boat with good performance. Both 'Indian' and the Folkboat sailed exceptionally well, by which I mean they were well mannered in all kinds of wind. Indian and Diana would sail in very light breezes, holding their courses and maintaining steerage in very light breezes. But their speeds would be very slow as compared to the more modern boats that I went on to own.

There is a very different aesthetic to sailing boats like these. They are still fun to sail, challenging in their own ways. Its not the type of boat that I chose to own these days, mostly because in my current lifestyle I buy boats which can cover bigger distances under sail with my limited time, but these are still boats that pull at my heart strings.

To this day, I cannot walk past a Rozinante or an S Boat without wondering whether they might make a great next boat for me.
01-26-2013 04:41 PM
Re: Why I like a full keel

agree with Jeff. Very hard to clear line in small aperture of full keel or skeg with aperture boat. Sweet lines on Indian but I would suspect your Farr goes farther faster.
01-26-2013 04:29 PM
Capt. Gary Randall
Re: Why I like a full keel

Thank you! beautiful pics, I love older wooden boats no comment on the Keels. captg
01-26-2013 04:23 PM
Re: Why I like a full keel

I totally disagree with your actions in selling Indian.

What a gorgeous boat. I guess you wanted to sail in under 10 Knots of wind.
01-26-2013 04:07 PM
Re: Why I like a full keel

Below is a picture of 'Indian', the 1939 Stadel Cutter that my Dad and I owned for close to a decade. It shows her in profile out of the water. It pretty clearly shows what I would call a full keel and also her two blade propeller in its aperture.

[IMG]Indian out of the water, Indian Hauled out for a bottom job[/IMG]

Of all the boats I ever owned, and all the boats I ever sailed over 50 years of sailing experience, this is the only one to have caught a line in her prop. Clearing that line while working in that tight aperture was a bear. It took a bunch of dives (without tanks) since you had to turn the rudder to one side, start to unwrap the line on that side, come up for air, turn the rudder to the other side and work on that side.

This is me in the mid 1970's, in my 20's when we were restoring the old girl and another of her sailing when the restoration was completed.


Here is 'Diana', the Folkboat that I restored and owned before I owned 'Indian'.

This is the only boat that I owned that had its rudder damaged in a grounding. Here I am as a 23 year old with my Dad working on the new rudder.


In fairness, according to the prior owner who actually owned the boat when the rudder was damaged, the boat had run aground moving astern after loosing its rig. But still, given the position of the bottom of the rudder a mere couple inches above the very bottom of the keel, I would have to say that this rudder equally vulnerable if not more vulnerable than the rudders on a well designed fin keeler which is often a foot or more shallower than the bottom of the keel.


So while I have no idea what lack of experience others may bring to this discussion, or what agendas others may use to perhaps justify their own choices in boats, and I cannot account for whether other people's opinions are expected or unexpected, or whether an assertion is coming from some unnamed 'theorist' pushing some viewpoint that suits them, I see no point in speculating on other people's motives.

All I can do, in any discussion, is call it as I see it, and base my opinions on my own direct experiences, the lessons I've learned working for and talking with highly regarded yacht designers that I have known, my work in boat yards, conversations with those who maintain boats of all sorts, sailing the boats I have owned or been guests on, and from my readings and from what only seems logical.

If you disagree my opinion, feel free to make your case. Explain why you think it may be mistaken. But otherwise you are more than welcome to your outlandish opinions, whether they are based on your own agenda, ignorance and/or theories, and you may be better served tempering your speculations so you do not sound quite so paranoid.

01-26-2013 11:22 AM
Re: Why I like a full keel

Have lived and sailed in new england for 30+ years with multiple full keeled, skeg with apature.high aspect fins. IMHO
sailing- no problems except with fixed props left spinning.
motoring- more risk with fin but easier to clear

Answer- learn to sail your boat.get your electrons from wind/sun. never put your engine on except when you must. after all it's a SAIL boat.LOL
01-26-2013 12:58 AM
Re: Why I like a full keel

The assertion that a full keel yacht, with an attached rudder and the propeller in an aperture, is as vulnerable as a fin keel yacht for catching lines, like crab pots, is one of the most outlandish statements made on this forum. As one who is frequently running up and down the coast, the only conclusion I can come up with is the total lack of experience of the asserter OR that perhaps another agenda is showing itself. It is not unexpected that such an assertion is again coming from a theorist.
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