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Frozen rudder shaft Hinterhoeller 28

25K views 195 replies 26 participants last post by  Mervs1 
#1 ·
Well I took the plunge today. My offer on a 1966 HH 28 was accepted and I am a new owner. I am excited to get going fitting her out to go back in the water. The only potentially serious problem to be addressed is a frozen rudder. Using the wheel above and putting pressure on rudder below because she is on the hard, the rudder refuses to move at all. Even after dousing the shaft from above with WD40 overnight. Any ideas on how to approach a repair? The boat has been stored for a number of years so no doubt something has seized up over time. The seller says he had previously exercised the rudder regularly. He appeared as surprised as I that my third visit to see the boat revealed the frozen rudder. See pic but I am looking for ways to approach a fix. The rudder neither turns nor can it be dropped. Thanks.
 

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#94 ·
All indications are that there is no more packing in her. I cut one of the ears off whole giving me a cLear picture of the side of the box and I am down to aluminum. Now the kroil and heat need to work. I don't want to cut off more of box lest I have nothing left to get a wrench on. If I cut her flush to top of box and she does not free up my only option be to open the rudder which would necessitate fabrication of a new one. Something I want to avoid.
 
#97 · (Edited)
If you are down to aluminum and no more packing... I think you might be galling metal to metal and no amount of Kroil or heat is going to loosen that rudder... your alternative is brute force or cutting the tube to loosen it... it's unfortunate you put all this effort to finally have to resort to drastic measures.
 
#95 ·
Kroil, Kroil, Kroil and heat. I might not be apposed to two weeks of heat and daily Kroil re-application.

The key here is giving it time to penetrate. If it's locked up that tight it will take T I M E. There are many virtues in life, time and lubrication are at the top of most people list :)
 
#96 ·
I'd start using that dead blow hammer and twisting the rudder back & forth like you described earlier.

Nothing too extreme - just firmly & steadily, alternating from one to the other.

If you can't get anywhere with that and the penetrant, a more serious attack would be to slit the rudder tube lengthwise and wedge it open. Then the rudder would HAVE to drop out (I think ;)). You could repair the tube simply by wrapping it with some layers of epoxy & glass fabric.
 
#101 ·
Can you elaborate on wrapping the split tube? I would be concerned about getting the tube back to orig strength. In the event splitting the tube becomes my only option I would like to know more.
 
#100 ·
Got a torch. I do think I am down to aluminum and stainless shaft. What is galling? I can give it til about Tuesday at which point I getup against preferred splash date.
 
#103 ·
I think if you had been paying a yard to do this work by now you would be rapidly approaching the boat value tiping point. A good shop would focus on keeping it simple and keeping the cost to a minimum. They would recommend cutting the tube out of the boat, remove tube/rudder to workshop environment to salvage the rudder and installing a new fiberglass tube. Filament wound tubing is available off the shelf.

Not to offend, but you are tackling a problem that has been festering for over 40 years, and in the big picture this is a small repair, in a difficult location, by an owner with limited experience that must be thinking 'there has to be a better way'. You've given it a huge effort. Your love of sailing shouldn't be challenged by this project.
 
#104 · (Edited)
From a lifetime around piping and pipe fitters I know this; It's almost always easier to split cast or malleable if a long slot is cut in the fitting.(omg, my dad used to split cast iron fittings with one shot from a sledge!) The hard part; is spreading that slot apart with a tool I've never seen. :) Sort of a reverse leverage bolt cutter with super strong blades, like we see on sheet metal vise grip pliers. Cast fittings split.. malleable... "tear" if the slot cut is deep enough. .. scoring the rudder post is not the worse thing you can do. I'm sure a talented welder could fix that.

Changing to a FG tube seems inevitable too.. Maybe it is time to cut the metal one out! Wonders can be worked with FG and epoxy that Joe average could never attempt without them.

On my boat the tube is pretty high and the quadrant hub is right on the top of the FG tube. (should have a thrust bearing but it's easy to turn without one) The water line is well below the top of the tube also. There are glassed in plywood gussets holding the tube, but I don't think lateral movement is a big problem since the tube continues up to the transom deck.

Cutting/drilling holes in our boats is a terrifying thing... in reality it's not all that terrible. Again, with epoxy and glass.. not much can't be fixed. The only real negative with epoxy, is sunlight damage.....

jus sayin.....
 
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#105 ·
As I let Dr. Kroil do his thing I am cleaning up fuel line replacement and electrical connection projects. Both are done so I am encouraged today. Currently replacing coolant hose that dumps into exhaust system just aft of the A4. Learning much about the boat and confident a way will be found with the rudder. As they say, the hardest part of any job is figuring out the easiest way. I am committed to not permanently disabling a vessel that daily I grow more appreciative of.
 
#106 ·
That's the spirit... don't give up... those that do have vessels rotting away on the hard or derelict in the slips... seen too many! :thewave:

Galling is when metal contacts metal and starts to scour/shred with no lubricity between them... if left long and continues to gall they almost will bond together from friction and no amount of force other than tearing these parts apart... let's hope that is not the case with the rudder/tube assembly... it would take a lot of heat to get the different metals to expand enough to let them slip and move... :(

Good luck and hope you find a method to solve your situation. :)

Nick
 
#111 ·
Wow lots of good input here. You all are making me think this one through. I am thinking to give it a few more days of Kroil, heat, and gentle muscle. If that does not work I am thinking split the tube, cut out the stuffing box, drop and clean up shaft, order the right box/bearing (probably from Edson) and put it all back together with some big hose clamps to hold tube and then glass over the whole thing. Thanks all.
 
#112 ·
Well some real progress today... sort of. The day started great. Got to the boat and began wiggling the rudder from below. Suddenly I noticed it was walking down out of the boat a bit. So some more wiggling eventually brought the whole rudder out of the boat. So that part is done. However, as I looked down in the hull at the now rudder tube, the box/bearing was still stuck on the top of the tube (see picture). And it is stuck fast. I suspect the aluminum box/bearing and SS shaft have galled big time. So what now? I heated it, Kroiled it, and wrenched it but no luck. I think I am at the point where the rudder tube needs to come out. So I worked on the 4 bolts holding the rube to the hull. They came apart easy enough but two of them the bolt spun with the nut. Looking outside (see picture) I noticed indication on outside of the hull of all four bolts. Anyway two came off form inside and two are spinning. I am wondering do I now knock those bolts out through the hull to release the tube?

The tube from below appears to be SS with some sort of fiber inner bearing. That inner bearing appears to be either fiberglass or some sort of plastic. Should that all just come out so I can get back to bear hull with 4 bolt holes and one large rudder tube hole that will let me start all over with some other sort of fix? Anyone thinking this is becoming a job for a boatyard to do? My skills are somewhat limited (as is my money) and I do not want to do anything that could endanger later. So far I am fine with the level of skill required but this next step which could end up leaving holes in the hull feels like a different animal. Whatcha think??? Thanks all. See photos for better understanding.
 

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#113 ·
Step 1 for me would be mfr a template to where the current hole is so any cutting and replacement will put the rudder right back true to it's current location and angle. A piece of pipe mounted to a thin plywood form would allow you to mark the outline of the plywood form. This jig would allow you to test the new tube alignment. If you make the jig also have a removable sleeve/tube you'll be able to put it into the new tube to represent the rudder shaft when mounting the new tube.
 
#114 ·
I'd get rid of the metal tube and replace it with a glass tube thoroughly glassed and gusseted to the hull on the inside. If the quadrant height is far enough above the waterline you wouldn't even have to have a stuffing box - my Columbia 43 didn't - the quadrant bolted to the underside of the cockpit and the tube came right up to the bottom of the quadrant. There was a top bearing and emergency tiller attachment flush with the cockpit sole. A very simple installation. If the tube is kept as tight as possible without interference to the shaft, even in the worst possible conditions, only a very minor amount of water could squeeze its way into the boat. Essentially the entire tube becomes a bushing surface for the shaft instead of it being supported merely at the ends.

If you can find some manufactured glass tube with the right I/D to fit your shaft, buy a piece long enough and glass it in. If you can't find the right I/D, make your own, right on the shaft as I described earlier in this thread.
 
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#115 ·
I think I'd be considering looking for an appropriate ID thick-walled fiberglass tube or pipe, remove the original altogether and fiberglass/epoxy the new tube in place with substantial gussets... something like this:



If you can't find the right tube diameter you could make your own as described by SloopJonB previously.. and do the same.

EDIT:... I see SJB and I are on the same page!!!
 
#117 · (Edited)
Great pic Faster - that's EXACTLY what I meant. I got that gusset idea from New Orleans Marine - it was one of the details they did that other builders omitted - it adds a bunch of strength to a spade installation.
 
#116 · (Edited)
It's imbedded for sure. I'd just dig it out start with new or home made tube that is longer the top of the post goes through the deck right? So lateral movement is not a big issue.
Even as a fist time user you will do very well with epoxy and glass.. Some people use "kitty hair" which is glass strands in resin hardened with catalyst (not epoxy.) cutless bearing struts are embedded essentially the same way.

Here's a thread by someone that did the same thing your facing.
http://www.myheap.com/1970-pearson-26/rudder-tube-and-bushings.html
 
#119 ·
A competent mechanic can extract the bushing... or just glass in a new tube... either way, you are on your way to completion of the odyssey.
 
#120 ·
So by consensus it sounds like the old tube should come out. My guess is that means removing the four bolts that hold it to the hull which means loosening inside nuts and punching the bolts back out through the hull and patching afterwards. The tube itself is the stainless piece visible in the underneath photo. I suppose that will just somehow release from the hull. With it out I then have the options of (1) finding and fitting a new tube with gussets or (2) having the bearing removed mechanically and putting the tube back in complete with new box and packing.

To be honest, I really don't like the idea of losing the tube because it holds the bottom bearing nicely. Pulling the rudder tube will totally change where the shaft goes through the hull. Currently, everything coming through the bottom of the hull is purpose built for that shaft and still looks in very good condition. As it is if I slide the rudder shaft back up in through the quadrant and out the top, the top and bottom are held tightly by nylon bearings still in very good condition. If I could find a way to cut the old box flush with the top of the tube and create a water tight seal right there I would do that. Maybe sand the ID of the old box to clean it up real well boring it slightly in the process so the rudder turns easily and fit like a gaiter above it. Probably crazy thinking. I just wish there was a way to retain both original ends but do something with the top of the tube where the old (now beat up) box was. From what I can see, the old, now destroyed box was simply a water-tight seal, the top and bottom bearings created the firmness in the shaft. I am guessing that the top of the tube is right at water line. I mean I can see the wisdom of starting all over but the work involved sounds somewhat daunting.

BTW, the white junk in my hand is what I pulled out of the tube once the shaft was removed. Any idea what this is? I am guessing the inside of the tube between the bottom bearing and the old box had about 3/8" of this on side walls all the way around. Could it be some old packing that had completely disintegrated?

Thanks! You all really are helping. I need some sleep. The roller coaster of seeing the shaft slide out (yippee!) only to reveal yet another hill to climb (c'mon!) has left me tired today. But I do have time tomorrow to fight on... then Friday starts a 5 day cruise to the Bahamas. Anyone wanna come live in my house for five days and fix my boat while I am gone? :)

BTW, I added what is a clearer picture of what the box/tube looks like now...
 

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#122 ·
BTW, the white junk in my hand is what I pulled out of the tube once the shaft was removed. Any idea what this is? I am guessing the inside of the tube between the bottom bearing and the old box had about 3/8" of this on side walls all the way around. Could it be some old packing that had completely disintegrated?
That mush looks like wet, thick aluminium oxide. I've never seen any type of packing that could end up looking like that. Is your rudder shaft aluminium by any chance?

I agree with Faster - I think you're making too much of what the job would be to glass in a new tube. Glass & epoxy work is quite simple albeit sticky & itchy. It is a skill you are almost certain to need during your boat ownership years. By the time you have done this you'll be fairly expert - it really is about that straightforward.

Trying to rebuild what you have looks like a LOT more work and expense to me and what you'd end up with wouldn't be as good - more complex, more expensive, not as strong and susceptible to the same failure down the road.

Your setup is unlike anything I've seen in a sailboat while what we describe is very standard practice and has been for decades.
 
#121 ·
Can you get your trusty sawzall down the tube now and slit that garbage at the top without damaging the lower bushing? I'm thinking if you cut a couple of slots vertically down to the tube wall you may relieve some pressure and then be able to physically remove the two pieces.. at least you'll have some limited space for movement and it may release.

Another possibility, though, if you're ultimately unsuccessful in removing that last bit, would be to cut the existing tube below that seal, then sleeve and extend the existing tube to where you need it.

That said, I do think you're making a bit too much of the job of replacing the tube.. as far as DIY glasswork project I think that's a fairly simple, straightforward task, esp if you can find an appropriate section of pipe or tube for the job. It would be easy to slip a temporary stock up there to maintain the alignment as you install the tube. You'd also avoid any future issues with whatever seized things up in the first place. You could also incorporate a socket for a new lower bushing that might be more easily replaceable in the future..

At any rate you're many steps closer to a solution than when you started... best of luck!
 
#124 ·
Here is a shaft picture.

Also, if I glass in a new tube how is the top sealed? Ending at the quadrant would have it open above the water line so can it be open or am I needing to plan for a new stuffing box as well?

And with a new tube what actually holds the rudder up? The only thru-shaft would be the quadrant bolt. Originally there was a collar type piece with two allen headed screws one on each side that rode about the orig stuffing box and I assume functioned as a vertical hold on the shaft.
 

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#127 · (Edited)
Here is a shaft picture.

Also, if I glass in a new tube how is the top sealed? Ending at the quadrant would have it open above the water line so can it be open or am I needing to plan for a new stuffing box as well?

And with a new tube what actually holds the rudder up? The only thru-shaft would be the quadrant bolt. Originally there was a collar type piece with two allen headed screws one on each side that rode about the orig stuffing box and I assume functioned as a vertical hold on the shaft.
If the shaft goes high enough above the waterline you don't really need to worry about a seal. My Col 43 didn't have one and there was no evidence that water had ever intruded. The quadrant bolt and the tillerhead fitting will hang it securely. Put a ring of UHMWP or Delrin on top of the tube as a thrust surface for the quadrant and just let the rudder hang.

P.S. that pic appears to confirm my suspicion that the white mush is aluminium oxide. Is the rudder shaft aluminium?
 
#125 ·
I think if the tube ends as high as you can get away with, the pressure on any seal there would be quite minimal - it shouldn't take too much .. Some kind of Oring might do.

As far as holding the rudder up I'd reinstall/create a pinned collar at deck level.
 
#128 ·
I have not determined the make-up of the rudder but my best guess at present is it is aluminum. So I think the guess at aluminum oxide is probably a good one. But I was surprised at how gooped up it was in there. I would say a full 4" of the tube all the way around at 3/8" deep was that junk.

In terms of height above water line, my measurements show a max of about 4" above water line for new tube. Any higher and I am running into the quadrant. My concerns are things like heeling and how that might impact.
 
#130 ·
I have not determined the make-up of the rudder but my best guess at present is it is aluminum. So I think the guess at aluminum oxide is probably a good one. But I was surprised at how gooped up it was in there. I would say a full 4" of the tube all the way around at 3/8" deep was that junk.
You must check the lower bearing surface of the shaft, if it is uneven you must find a fix - one option is to add a sleeve, read more here: Jefa stainless steel and aluminium sleeves

In terms of height above water line, my measurements show a max of about 4" above water line for new tube. Any higher and I am running into the quadrant. My concerns are things like heeling and how that might impact.
I suggest you read this about sealing Sealing systems
 
#133 ·
my Oday has a tube that is well above the water line and no bearings, just the tube is greased full length. .

some where out there the are nylon stuffing boxes.
 
#135 ·
Yes!!

Have a look at the "Upper Rudder Bearings - *" and "Rudder Collars", read the pdf's (It says motorboats on the Rudder Collars - but this should work equally fine on a sailboat).

They also have other rudder system components.

You should make a complete inventory of the parts in your steering system, dimensions and state, start planning from there.
 
#136 ·
Denise... I have checked the link and written to them. Their rudder seal looks like it would be both safe/strong and do-able. Thanks for the link! If I can preserve my original rudder tube and get hose connection going between the rudder tube (they refer to it as a port) and their seal it would seem to work quite well.
 
#137 ·
The attached pic taken from their PDF looks just like my setup. My only question is rudder shaft OD. I am 1 7/8" and their closest listed size is 1 3/4". We shall see what they say.
 

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