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Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum > Lets have a chat about multis.
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Thread: Lets have a chat about multis. Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-21-2013 09:44 AM
TropicCat
Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
Addressing the rigging tune point etc- can we agree that with a high aspect fractional rig- as you typically see on these boats ( and a great rig with tons of potential) it is all about the leech...
You misunderstood or I wasn't clear. I wasn't referring to sail trim when I said "rig tuning". Sail trim is of course related but a different conversation.

Because of the lack of feel and the predominance of hydraulic steering, a lot of boat owners don't even know where there rudder is on any point of sail but particularly with regard to pointing ability. All boats should take advantage of rudder lift but large catamarans particularly benefit from it. Rig tuning determines weather helm or lee helm and tunes the boat to proper balance. I usually do this on a close reach.

Some newer boats were designed with no backstays. Which is great for big roach sails but challenging when finding proper boat balance. This is an important issue and should be one of the finer points boat buyers be aware of.
02-21-2013 08:08 AM
c. breeze Addressing the rigging tune point etc- can we agree that with a high aspect fractional rig- as you typically see on these boats ( and a great rig with tons of potential) it is all about the leech- IE sail trim isn't anymore dificult than with older traditional masthead rigs- but- other than feel- you really need to watch that leech- more so than with a main with less roach and a longer boom. And honestly- I don't know if other than the "race" boat my pop helped deliver a while back that I've ever seen one with tell tales on the leech. Maybe just because you can't see the sails anyway from the damn cockpit- so why add the .76 ounces. Or whatever- point is- again- awesome rig- great hulls- but the whole picture isn't of a boat designed with sailing as the primary goal.

My enthusiasm for admiral chasing wanes in direct proportion to the beam she carries too far aft- just as my enthusiasm for sailing a boat wanes in direct proportion to how you have crippled her.
02-21-2013 07:57 AM
TropicCat
Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Ahhh .... a purist. I can respect that. Like I said earlier, it's the reason there are so many boat models to choose from.
02-21-2013 07:53 AM
c. breeze I also note that you are having at least 2 -3 conversations right now- and as such the accusations, questions and critiques are all coming pretty quick and can be tough to track and address-

Like I've heard it said- 9 out of 10 people love a gang bang... Your being a damn good sport here- and it's not lost on me.
02-21-2013 07:41 AM
c. breeze The 99/1 thing wasn't an economic or political reference. It was you saying that 99% of the time is in the hook or ball or dock- and 1% is spent sailing.

Of course sailing basics are sailing basics. In that light- it really took me a bit longer than it should have to realize that my alberg drawn boat isn't that different (performance wise) from an opti- IE keep it upright. To this end I'm all about some early reefing. As I told my dad a short month after taking ownership " pop- it's a travesty that this boat that is a dog in less than 10 knots needs a reef at 12 to sail". Nope. No travesty- just not the stiff performance oriented boat I grew up on. The keelboats I had sailed most prior to this boat were sabres shaw era pearsons J's
And cals. All a far cry from anything Carl alberg drew.

Attachment 13459

None of the girls I know would be caught dead on a rig like this. Sure looks aren't everything- or even much at all- but seriously? Hence the Buick regal station wagon reference.

I'm familiar with the designers- and there success an failure on the campaign trail- but I'm about to spend a bunch of time learning about s hulls and what they are about. That said- the hull isn't the problem on your typical cruising cAt- IE the leopard. A hull is only as good as the condo you bolt to the top if it.

I'm probably of the farrier/ corsair school mainly when it comes to "cruising" multihulls. Reasonable pointing, pretty decent tacking for a multihull, and of course they just haul ass.

My sister in law is of the opinion that I would crack a big grin if you stuck me in the middle of the ocean or a swimming pool in a bathtub with a broomstick and a bed sheet. Point being- I don't give a good god damn what I'm on or where I am as long as there is wind and waves. I really want to like the cruise cats- I've delivered a few- I find the final execution of the design lacking however- from the viewpoint of the sailor. Because of my roots- I'm always looking for that magic combo of flying and sailing however- so I ll continue to keep my eyes ears and mind open.

And also- I will hold to the belief that sailboats are for sailing first and foremost. As soon as you start to chop into that functionality- they are boring, and may as well be stinkboAts. I'm not the guy who screams for a more seaworthy boat- though I do appreciate one. I'm the guy who will rail against builders (we aren't talking designers- builders are the ones who execute well or ruin a design) who take a sailboat and turn it into the ghastly abominations you see motoring around the carribean.
02-21-2013 06:53 AM
TropicCat
Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
...I am also gratified that you made no effort to refute my claim that on most cruising cats "sailing" is an afterthought in the design and layout. I suppose I should be further thankful to you for going on to support my claim- via the 99% / 1% argument.
Did you claim this? I wouldn't argue the point although I certainly didn't appreciate the Buick reference, however I did understand it. The price of catamarans almost dictates that you won't see many young people owning one. It's a shame as these are platforms which attract women into sailing and that's not an insignificant thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
I do get curious when I see mention Of all the time it takes to learn how to sail a boat in one sentence- and all this talk of autopilot and admiral chasing basically throughout. People don't buy these boats to learn how to get the most ou of them. They buy them because they have an equivalent number of electrical outlets as there home- and more square footage than most 2 bedroom apts. ....
Sailing basics are sailing basics no matter what kind of boat you're on. However, the fact that catamarans don't heel is huge. A catamaran sailor mantra is to REEF EARLY as catamarans don't have the feel of a small sail boat nor do they heel. As wind builds you will get into trouble. By this I'm not suggesting they all flip over. Things on board will start breaking, which is never a good thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
I better retreat to the crew wanted thread that mentions the kids sailin j24s so the old farts have a ready source of up and coming crew. I prefer the idea that even when I'm 70- if I make it that far- that sailing will still be my primary incentive for being on a sailboat.
You don't know that. Or is there an electric winch in your future? I'm 62 and didn't think I'd still be sailing at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by c. breeze View Post
I also found the S Hull / sacrificial keel design intricacy interesting. I get the sacraficial keel- but what is the s hull- and how does it work? You can explain it or provide links- either way. Thanks.
Morrelli & Melvin are the designers of the Americas cup series , they also designed the Leopard and Gunboat series of catamarans as well as many others. They have a new design which uses the "S" hull. Link is here:

Features | Indikon Boat Works | Indikon Boat Works

In addition, BMW Oracle uses an "S" hard chine main hull on their America's cup boat, and they're obviously very successful campaigning that boat.

Lastly not all catamarans are "condomarans". It's interesting that the two most recognized performance catamaran designers are at opposite ends of the hierarchy. Morrelli & Melvin are the mavens of Americas Cup and Richard Woods Designs concentrates on performance oriented affordable catamaran designs. I guess he never grew out of his racing days which at last count included 32 Atlantic crossings. Richard is a friend of mine and stops by and visits me as he's sailing through my part of the world. His boats are the fastest sailing I have ever done outside of Hobie Cats. Link to his site - Richard Woods Designs

Woods is a proponent of centerboards (he and I have discussed this at length as I used to disagree with him). I've sailed his 32' Eclipse and his 38' Transit. Both were incredible but the Transit at 38' seemed much larger than it's size would suggest in the interior, yet sailed not only better than my boat, she sailed easier. Truly amazing designs.
02-21-2013 02:10 AM
c. breeze Thanks iPhone. For all the help you give me. Like I can't seem like a jackass on my own.

Mods!!! Help!!!
02-21-2013 01:32 AM
c. breeze I think it's cute that the argument you address first is that you don't buy based in looks- which was only an afterthought in my post. I referenced the hobies only to support that I have no ideological issue with multihulls, however I appreciate you instructing me on the "subtle" differences between the two types at any rate. I am also gratified that you made no effort to refute my claim that on most cruising cats "sailing" is an afterthought in the design and layout. I suppose I should be further thankful to you for going on to support my claim- via the 99% / 1% argument.

All that said- I guess I could for about 3k build or buy a deck boat to chase the admiral around and to raft up with my buddies- and thanks to the wonders Of Craig's list and ikea furnish it in pretty high style.

I guess if I had 100k to throw at a boat I might do that- and drop 90k on sailbaot designed to sail- and use the other 7k to host a big party on the party barge for all my friends and family. Or the yacht club.

I admire your passion for the boats you've chosen. And it's awesome that you- like me- have found suitable platforms for your sailing pleasure.

I do get curious when I see mention Of all the time it takes to learn how to sail a boat in one sentence- and all this talk of autopilot and admiral chasing basically throughout. People don't buy these boats to learn how to get the most ou of them. They buy them because they have an equivalent number of electrical outlets as there home- and more square footage than most 2 bedroom apts. if learning how to sail the boat were my goal- you Better believe I'd want a reasonable view of the sails- a reasonable view from the helm- and yeah. A sheet ( o winch handle) in my hand a pretty good bit- you know - trimming those sails I could see while feeling that helm.

I'm sure you can sail circles around me. And I'm also sure I can sail circles around (insert random high percentage here- call it 3/4) of cruising cat people because I am actually a sailor- and tend to desire being in tune with the boat more than anything else while I'm sailing. You know- its not an afterthought. But it might be just the while newness of it all- I've only been sailing for 27 years.

The depressing thing about this whole conversation is the implied inevitability that one day ill lose interest in the sailing and reorder my priorities for how to spend time on my boat.

I better retreat to the crew wanted thread that mentions the kids sailin j24s so the old farts have a ready source of up and coming crew. I prefer the idea that even when I'm 70- if I make it that far- that sailing will still be my primary incentive for being on a sailboat.

I also found the S Hull / sacrificial keel design intricacy interesting. I get the sacraficial keel- but what is the s hull- and how does it work? You can explain it or provide links- either way. Thanks.
02-20-2013 11:50 PM
TropicCat
Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have edited the post. Funny mistake. I meant yo say that was the boat that won the 2013 European boat of the year contest on the Multihull class and by mistake wrote Monohull.

After all it seems that it is you that think that some of the most respected voyage offshore cats are unsafe

Came on, everybody knows that Outremer is one of the cats that circumnavigated more times and a favorite in what regards sailors that favors Cats for long voyages.
OK on your typo

As for the Outremer, what can I say except that I'm stunned. These are fast boats. No doubt about it. And they are famous too. I agree.

But Paulo my friend you are now talking the rarefied air of $1 million boats, which is a far cry from where this conversation began.

A friend of mine did an Atlantic crossing last year from Florida to England in a 30 year old Catalac 12M (S/V Angel Louise), which sells for roughly 15% of the price of the Outremer you suggest and is a safer boat. Not faster. I said safer. This couple is in their 70's and had a very nice trip across the Atlantic. After several months in England, they sailed to France, demasted the boat and experienced a bit of the French canals and lastly managed to travel to the Danube a delightful river which they motored southeast for 2,872 km (1,785 mi), passing through four Central European capitals before arriving at the Black Sea via the Danube Delta in Romania. I think they have to head home soon as they have used all the time allowed in the EU specified in their visa.

Try that with a $1 million Outremer! (They are too wide for the canals)
02-20-2013 10:09 PM
PCP
Re: Lets have a chat about multis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TropicCat View Post
No we don't agree at all. And why are you referencing a 2013 monohull in a catamaran conversation? Surely we can agree that when things go bad, they go bad all at once?

Imagine .... You're sailing your performance catamaran in the dark of night, boards down, no moon and no one could possibly see the squall that is about to hit you. Yet bang! Out of nowhere 80 knot winds slam into the boat and you 'performance' catamaran guys are thrown into the water as the boat turns turtle. What? Did you think that squall was going to text you before it hit the boat so you could have been ready? There's no time to pull those damn boards up.
.....
I strongly suggest you try it sometime before recommending this course to others.
I have edited the post. Funny mistake. I meant yo say that was the boat that won the 2013 European boat of the year contest on the Multihull class and by mistake wrote Monohull.

After all it seems that it is you that think that some of the most respected voyage offshore cats are unsafe

Came on, everybody knows that Outremer is one of the cats that circumnavigated more times and a favorite in what regards sailors that favors Cats for long voyages. Many experienced sailors have chosen them to circumnavigate and do extensive voyage.

Do you think they are wrong? I would say that they, like me, don't favor the same kind of cat you prefer for voyaging. Nothing wrong in preferring other type of cats or boats, but saying that cats that use daggerboards are not safe makes no sense. Any cat can be capsized by the wind in the sails if the sailor does not have good sense.

Maybe you never heard about Outremer? Here you have a sail test by Charles Doane (Charles Doane is SAIL's Executive Editor) on a boat that was replaced by the one I was talking about, the 49:

I've done two transatlantics on cats....What intrigued me most about it were the twin carbon-fiber tillers aft on each hull. I'd never steered a cat this size with a tiller before, and I was very curious to find out what it was like.
.....
For me the bottom line on any boat evaluation is always very simple: would I like to own one? Make that a big affirmative on the Outremer 49. I'll take one, please. I'd love to be out there on those tillers, steering through some island-studded turquoise water.


Or perhaps what Alvah Simon says in "Cruising world magazine" about the 49?:

Outremer has been building multihulls for 27 years, making it a pioneer in the field. The company is a dedicated bluewater specialist with a straightforward motto: “Seaworthy, Fast, Simple.”

Alvah Simon - About | Facebook

Or maybe why the boat that I have posted, the Outremer 5X, was chosen has European multihull of the year?

The Swedish tester says: "An offshore long distance voyager, fast but always safe".

The Danish tester says: " As a voyage boat the Outremer 5x is a dream ".

So, as you can see I am not alone into endorsing this boat as a safe offshore voyage cat. It is an opinion that is shared by almost all cat sailors.

Just look at some of the Outremer that voyaging in far away places and circumnavigating and you are going to see that they are sailed by families, not racers. There are not many but the ones that exist are not at the marina

Liladhoc's Blog

Sailing Around the World on Teulu

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DAY TO DAY :: Singa CATAMARAN

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Imagine ... Une famille en catamaran autour du monde

http://www.untempspourunreve.com

Outremer 45 ŗ vendre Ľ Outremer 45 occasion

Regards

Paulo
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