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Go Back   SailNet Community > General Interest > General Discussion (sailing related) > Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-11-2013 03:49 PM
CalebD
Re: Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmcgov View Post
Hey, Caleb. We replaced most of the balsa in our SJ21's decks with CoreCell. It costs substantially more than scrim balsa; shipping for either costs so much the materials price difference pales. Balsa is sometimes shipped rolled up, which may be cheaper. Balsa has more compression strength as a material (tho I'd be curious to know if that obtains post-install) but balsa's vertical shear and flexural properties are poor -- it will snap like a soda cracker. I found the CC to be fairly resistant to that, unless scored.

Both will drink a surprising amount of resin; you need to butter them well with neat mix before spreading the thickened resin, or you may end up with a starved bond. And any lightweight core material must still be isolated from water intrusion. CC will absorb a certain percentage of water, & it can delaminate from freeze/thaw just like balsa. The difference is it won't ROT. The balsa around our mast step looked like gravy. That trait alone steered me toward CC, & I am very happy with the result.

Our new-to-us '72 Ballad has some water intrusion problems around the mast partners, foredeck cleat, and chainplates. Its deck is cored with 1" Divinycell. We drilled out a couple samples with a hole saw; even tho the wet plug was over 30% MC when removed, it had very high compressive strength. It dried out in about four days to 6% MC & now seems good as new. I've tried drying out saturated balsa, but the results were not as happy.

Either material is perfectly satisfactory if you keep the water out -- balsa has a slight performance edge in several categories. Let water in, and neither material is happy; balsa suffers most. FWIW, I put cast resin pads and/or phenolic plate under all high-load deck fittings, in place of core. Even if your bedding sealant fails, there's no risk of water intrusion. Little epoxy collars are cute, but under winches, travelers, deck cleats, or around chainplate penetrations, gimme phenolic sheet running an inch or so oversize in all directions. Yeah it's heavy -- so is a foam or balsa core full of water.

core1

kiwi13
Hey Bob,

Thanks for posting about your experiences with CoreCell. It seems like a good way to go.
The job you did on the coach roof came out looking very nice indeed. Did you use vacuum bagging to apply the CC to the roof or some other clever method like Tommays showed, using dead men and a mold or pressure plate to hold the wet laminates in place before the epoxy cured?

Thanks again.
02-09-2013 07:19 AM
tommays
Re: Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?



Having done big area upside down


There is really no choice on a cal 29 as three is no structural inner skin attachment

This should also dispel legends about what makes a deck stiff



I can say with complete certainty the block size and ability to score the material is a huge plus as your NOT getting it up there in one shot





As much as love my friend G10 and placed it in core in areas i convinced myself it would be better



If you squeegee out a tight inner shin its incredibly strong





having bolted the stanchions back in the G10 area



And the mooring bit in the balsa area i can assure you you would never be able to tell and cannot compress the balsa

The mooring bit has held the boat through two hurricanes without so much as a bolt getting lose









For seacocks and stern-tube G10 is clearly the best material
02-09-2013 03:15 AM
downeast450
Re: Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?

Caleb,

Yup. Cuts partially through a panel on one side on an intersecting pattern at 90 degrees to each other. It allows it to flex and take a curve. I cut to fit. Butter the siped side with a paste of resin and a filler(cabosil or microbaloons or a mix) making sire the sipes get filled sipes down. Excess paste is forced out. Then press it onto the surface and cover it with more paste and the laminate. Bullet proof and rot proof and light. It cuts with a knife and small gaps can be filled with scraps and wedges you cut on the spot. If it is a close to flat surface you don't need it siped. It will soften with a heat gun and you can get some shape conformation (careful with heat). You can easily sipe it yourself if you have a table saw. Not cheap but value in workability and durability. I love the stuff. I have "scraps" in the shop I cut 20+ years ago and reach for them now to solve problems I am working on.

Down

AIREX polymer foams*- 3A Composites
02-08-2013 11:01 PM
CalebD
Re: Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?

Never heard of "siped" anything before so had to look it up.
Apparently it is usually used to describe the thin cuts made in tire treads but also applies to foam cores that are cut in a cross hatch pattern to allow more flexibility.
Looking at Defender's offerings of foam core products they only carry
Composites One Core-Cell Structural Closed Cell Foam
which is either "plain type" or "double cut" (assuming here that double cut = siped).
02-08-2013 09:26 PM
miatapaul
Re: Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?

How about ML Condon in Westchester? I know they carry a lot of marine lumber. There would be no shipping from them, and I know they carry several kinds of Marine plywood, not sure about Balsa.
02-08-2013 09:09 PM
bobmcgov
Re: Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?

Hey, Caleb. We replaced most of the balsa in our SJ21's decks with CoreCell. It costs substantially more than scrim balsa; shipping for either costs so much the materials price difference pales. Balsa is sometimes shipped rolled up, which may be cheaper. Balsa has more compression strength as a material (tho I'd be curious to know if that obtains post-install) but balsa's vertical shear and flexural properties are poor -- it will snap like a soda cracker. I found the CC to be fairly resistant to that, unless scored.

Both will drink a surprising amount of resin; you need to butter them well with neat mix before spreading the thickened resin, or you may end up with a starved bond. And any lightweight core material must still be isolated from water intrusion. CC will absorb a certain percentage of water, & it can delaminate from freeze/thaw just like balsa. The difference is it won't ROT. The balsa around our mast step looked like gravy. That trait alone steered me toward CC, & I am very happy with the result.

Our new-to-us '72 Ballad has some water intrusion problems around the mast partners, foredeck cleat, and chainplates. Its deck is cored with 1" Divinycell. We drilled out a couple samples with a hole saw; even tho the wet plug was over 30% MC when removed, it had very high compressive strength. It dried out in about four days to 6% MC & now seems good as new. I've tried drying out saturated balsa, but the results were not as happy.

Either material is perfectly satisfactory if you keep the water out -- balsa has a slight performance edge in several categories. Let water in, and neither material is happy; balsa suffers most. FWIW, I put cast resin pads and/or phenolic plate under all high-load deck fittings, in place of core. Even if your bedding sealant fails, there's no risk of water intrusion. Little epoxy collars are cute, but under winches, travelers, deck cleats, or around chainplate penetrations, gimme phenolic sheet running an inch or so oversize in all directions. Yeah it's heavy -- so is a foam or balsa core full of water.

core1

kiwi13
02-08-2013 05:46 PM
downeast450
Re: Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?

Klegecell or AIREX® Structural Foams might work for you. I have used both with excellent results. AIREX® Structural Foams come in siped panels and conform to curves well.

Down
02-08-2013 02:40 PM
CalebD
Re: Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?

So, Irunbird and anyone still reading:

Does anyone have comments about using Core-Cell closed cell structural foam .vs. end grain Balsa?
Composites One Core-Cell Structural Closed Cell Foam
02-08-2013 09:04 AM
Irunbird
Re: Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?

Caleb- it looks like you've got your answer(s), but just in case you'd like yet another opinion :-), I redid the core of about 2' x 1' on a portion of my cabin top adjacent to a length of jib track that in hindsight really wished I'd used something synthetic rather than end-grain balsa. It is bomb proof and looks great (now), but took tons of my time for essentially no gain. I found that from a local shipwright. For G10, if you ever really do need it (I've used it in several places for backing plates and other things), I bought 1/8" and 1/4" sheets (1' x 2') just from Amazon, which looks comparable to crossnail laminates in price (considerably cheaper than Mcmaster-Carr, Jamestown Dist or Interstate Plastics. Good luck with your project!
02-08-2013 08:39 AM
eherlihy
Re: Best/cheapest place to get G10 grp boards?

For core material, you may want to consider this; Macrocore 33.

I used a small piece on a small deck recore, and the US Navy is using it in the DDG1000...
I found that it is light, rigid, and it bonds really well with resin. Also, it will NEVER rot.

If you are interested, PM me, and I'll connect you with the right people.

Note that I have no interest in Esyntactic, other than I know the owner.
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